Special Teams and Heath Farwell Loooooove

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

You're dead on.  I think Farewell will be coaching for his job for the remainder of the season.  I'll add that Matakevich isn't looking like a very inspiring signing right now.  

 

I don't know.  I thought ST kind of varied between meh and horrid last season and Farwell stayed.

 

Perhaps @Ethan in Portland is actually Sean McDermott or knows McDermott's heart re: special teams.

[thenorthremembers]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't know.  I thought ST kind of varied between meh and horrid last season and Farwell stayed.

 

Perhaps @Ethan in Portland is actually Sean McDermott or knows McDermott's heart re: special teams.

They were near the bottom of the league in terms of Special Teams last year.  I think he got a pass because of it being his first year and Hauschka being bad.  They have made small strides this year, but that unit absolutely killed the Bills on Tuesday night.   It cant continue the way its been thats for sure. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't know.  I thought ST kind of varied between meh and horrid last season and Farwell stayed.

 

Perhaps @Ethan in Portland is actually Sean McDermott or knows McDermott's heart re: special teams.

 

I wouldn't say ST cost us this game - but last season there were a few pretty poor performances.  The NE game featured a blocked punt for a TD in a game buffalo lost by 6.  Lots of makeable missed FGs. 

 

Bojo seems to have improved on the punting aspect of his game, but it seems like the kick/hold motion is a little wonky.  I don't know if theres like - approach issues, snap issues, whatever.  

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, dneveu said:

I wouldn't say ST cost us this game -

 

Could we agree that giving up the 40 yd punt return, resulting in a Tenn drive at the Buff 30 and a TD, was kind of breaking point in the game?

 

We were tied 7-7, and our D had just gotten a stop on the previous drive.  No, you can't say it cost us the game, but it had pretty much the same impact as an INT vs a punt.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Could we agree that giving up the 40 yd punt return, resulting in a Tenn drive at the Buff 30 and a TD, was kind of breaking point in the game?

 

We were tied 7-7, and our D had just gotten a stop on the previous drive.  No, you can't say it cost us the game, but it had pretty much the same impact as an INT vs a punt.

 

They flipped the field down 14-7 and Tenn drove 90 yards in like 3 minutes.  That to me was the breaking point.  14 or even 17-10 at half is soooo much better than the 21-10.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

They flipped the field down 14-7 and Tenn drove 90 yards in like 3 minutes.  That to me was the breaking point.  14 or even 17-10 at half is soooo much better than the 21-10.  

 

?  I think that was 14-10 at that point, after the punt return.  Last drive before the half. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

?  I think that was 14-10 at that point, after the punt return.  Last drive before the half. 

 

Good point.  Even worse.  Poor offensive execution - but the defense followed with even worse execution.  We force a 3 and out and we have a chance to score there before half as well.

[Mr. WEO]

He should be fired for repeatedly having Roberts run back kickoffs.  Mystifying

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:58 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I started this thread in honor of various themes of "Defense sucks" threads after Tuesday's game and after listening to media interviews by Coach McD, Frazier, and Daboll.  Obviously the latter two get asked about their respective areas.

 

But McDermott doesn't seem to face proportionate questions Special teams.  I think they deserve more attention from our media. 

Likewise here: I haven't seen any threads calling for Heath Farwell to be fired. 

 

So here ya go: Against the Titans, at worst special teams put our D in a horrid position or turned the ball over, changing the score from defeat to humiliation. At best, they force us to start from a deficit to touchback yardage or a deep hole.

 

Putting our D in a horrid position: 2:14 left in 1Q, 57 yd punt to the Titans 30 returned 40 yds to the Buff 30.  Bojo made the tackle.

Context: The defense had just forced a 3-and-out, followed by a penalty-assisted 3 and out by the Bills.  The score was even-steven 7-7.  The 40 yd punt return had the Titans knocking on the door at the 30 yd line and led to a 2nd Titans TD 8 plays later, making it 14-7.

 

Key mistake in the game at a point where we were 100% in it.

 

Consistent problem: Field position on punt and kickoff returns. 

 

On kickoff returns, when Roberts brings it out, it's a good day when he manages to regain the field position he'd have if he just took a knee in the EZ.

Kickoff #1: Buff 20 (-5)

Kickoff #2: Buff 24 (-1)

Kickoff #3: end of half, Touchback (0)

Kickoff #4: Buff 22 (-3), 10 yd penalty to Buff 10

Kickoff #5: received at Buff 35, FUMBLE and loss of possession.  At this point in the game, we were basically playing for pride, but it turned it from a bad defeat into a humiliating rout.

 

Punt #1: -1 yd return, Buff 9

Punt #2: FC Buff 9

Punt #3: (start of 2nd half): Roberts backs off, Downed by Tenn at Buff 3

 

So there you have it.  Our ST put our D in a deep hole starting their defense on our own 30 yd line when the game was tied and turned the ball over.  They also forced our offense to start drives from 3, 9, 9 and 10 yds.  At best, we started with a deficit from the LOS after a touchback.

 

I think our ST has been sub-par for years but I put it out there:

Special Teams is the "undercover Turd" in the turd-laden punchbowl of the Titans loss and deserves more of our Football Fan Attention.

 

Bonus nit: Bojo's  inconsistent holds on FG and extra points.  Other holders manage to turn the laces.  WTF?

 

What's wrong, and how to fix it?  It clearly goes beyond Roberts: he must not be getting the blocking he needs to spring a return on punts and wound up forcing it (leading to the fumble).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep between ST and not just the INTs but lack of tackling afterwards, the titans were gifted 4 TD drive starts Inside the 30, 3 were inside the 20. 
 

soul crushing 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

Good point.  Even worse.  Poor offensive execution - but the defense followed with even worse execution.  We force a 3 and out and we have a chance to score there before half as well.

 

Yeah, if the D had managed to get a stop, I think there's a reasonable chance we could have made it 14-13 or 14-17 instead of 21-10.

But in truth I think allowing the punt return so Tenn started almost in the RZ a 2nd time kind of took the starch out of our D.

 

In the end it doesn't matter when they wilted - they most definitely wilted.  I just don't see ST getting their share of deserved LooooOOovvvve for the game.

 

 

[Lurker]

Amazing what one clunker of a game can do to the fan base...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Lurker said:

Amazing what one clunker of a game can do to the fan base...

You good with the ST play then?

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

You good with the ST play then?

 

On the list of problems, it's not in the top 3.  Or even 5...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Lurker said:

 

On the list of problems, it's not in the top 3.  Or even 5...

OK, I guess I disagree then.  I don’t think it’s the top 2 problems, but I think it’s a real problem that cost us a lot in Tues game and has bitten us (but we overcame) in previous games

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Am I missing something or wasn't our kick coverage and kick return units one of the highest rated in the league prior to last weeks game?  Is Farwell somehow singling from the sideline to Roberts to run them out?  Or is it just bad choices from Roberts?  Likely the  game plan is any kickoffs less than "X" yards into the endzone, you run our.  

 

Was Tenn kicking them higher but short so the distance was in the range to run out, but maybe with extra hang time allowed Tenn to cover well.  Would think it would be rather difficult for the kickoff return guy to accurately judge hang time to then make a split second decision as to whether to run it out or not.

[Lurker]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

OK, I guess I disagree then.  I don’t think it’s the top 2 problems, but I think it’s a real problem that cost us a lot in Tues game and has bitten us (but we overcame) in previous games

 

A lot of things cost us the Titans game.  

 

Defense, Offense, Special Teams, Coaching, Phase of the Moon, Side of Bed Awoken On...

[Simon]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:58 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I started this thread in honor of various themes of "Defense sucks" threads after Tuesday's game and after listening to media interviews by Coach McD, Frazier, and Daboll.  Obviously the latter two get asked about their respective areas.

 

But McDermott doesn't seem to face proportionate questions Special teams.  I think they deserve more attention from our media. 

 

 

Coming into the year, I thought the biggest problem that the abbreviated schedule would cause for clubs would be issues with special teams.

You can't run skeletons drills with it, you need entire units working together repeatedly under live fire conditions to get it right, and that was not an option this offseason.

Before I would put the option of firing people on the table, I would first look around the rest of the league and see if the same issues are plaguing other franchises.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Simon said:

 

Coming into the year, I thought the biggest problem that the abbreviated schedule would cause for clubs would be issues with special teams.

You can't run skeletons drills with it, you need entire units working together repeatedly under live fire conditions to get it right, and that was not an option this offseason.

Before I would put the option of firing people on the table, I would first look around the rest of the league and see if the same issues are plaguing other franchises.

Fair points.  Just FTR, I wasn’t suggesting fire the guy.  I don’t want Frazier fired either.  I just thought (and think) the role ST played in that blowout was flying under the radar

[JohnNord]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:58 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I started this thread in honor of various themes of "Defense sucks" threads after Tuesday's game and after listening to media interviews by Coach McD, Frazier, and Daboll.  Obviously the latter two get asked about their respective areas.

 

But McDermott doesn't seem to face proportionate questions Special teams.  I think they deserve more attention from our media. 

Likewise here: I haven't seen any threads calling for Heath Farwell to be fired. 

 

So here ya go: Against the Titans, at worst special teams put our D in a horrid position or turned the ball over, changing the score from defeat to humiliation. At best, they force us to start from a deficit to touchback yardage or a deep hole.

 

Putting our D in a horrid position: 2:14 left in 1Q, 57 yd punt to the Titans 30 returned 40 yds to the Buff 30.  Bojo made the tackle.

Context: The defense had just forced a 3-and-out, followed by a penalty-assisted 3 and out by the Bills.  The score was even-steven 7-7.  The 40 yd punt return had the Titans knocking on the door at the 30 yd line and led to a 2nd Titans TD 8 plays later, making it 14-7.

 

Key mistake in the game at a point where we were 100% in it.

 

Consistent problem: Field position on punt and kickoff returns. 

 

On kickoff returns, when Roberts brings it out, it's a good day when he manages to regain the field position he'd have if he just took a knee in the EZ.

Kickoff #1: Buff 20 (-5)

Kickoff #2: Buff 24 (-1)

Kickoff #3: end of half, Touchback (0)

Kickoff #4: Buff 22 (-3), 10 yd penalty to Buff 10

Kickoff #5: received at Buff 35, FUMBLE and loss of possession.  At this point in the game, we were basically playing for pride, but it turned it from a bad defeat into a humiliating rout.

 

Punt #1: -1 yd return, Buff 9

Punt #2: FC Buff 9

Punt #3: (start of 2nd half): Roberts backs off, Downed by Tenn at Buff 3

 

So there you have it.  Our ST put our D in a deep hole starting their defense on our own 30 yd line when the game was tied and turned the ball over.  They also forced our offense to start drives from 3, 9, 9 and 10 yds.  At best, we started with a deficit from the LOS after a touchback.

 

I think our ST has been sub-par for years but I put it out there:

Special Teams is the "undercover Turd" in the turd-laden punchbowl of the Titans loss and deserves more of our Football Fan Attention.

 

Bonus nit: Bojo's  inconsistent holds on FG and extra points.  Other holders manage to turn the laces.  WTF?

 

What's wrong, and how to fix it?  It clearly goes beyond Roberts: he must not be getting the blocking he needs to spring a return on punts and wound up forcing it (leading to the fumble).

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess you forgot about the 70 yard punt that flipped the field after a bad Bills possession.  
 

I’ll agree with you here - this season the Special Teams leaves a lot to be desired.   But I don’t think they are as bad as you outlined - I just see a lot of inconsistency - namely with Bojo
 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

I guess you forgot about the 70 yard punt that flipped the field after a bad Bills possession.  

 

No.  No I didn't, any more than people "forget" about a beautiful Josh Allen pass in a game we lost in part because the offense as a whole didn't do enough. 

That 70 yd punt was gorgeous. 

 

Overall Bojo has a good average.  But as I alluded to in another thread - it's not that he consistently punts solid 50 yders.  It's that he'll have a 65 yd punt balanced out by a 43 yd punt, or a game where his punting average is 55 yds balanced off with a game where he kicks 39, 39 and 41 yders

 

He's kind of like the box of chocolates in Forest Gump, you never know when you're gonna get a nut.  Then there's his ADHD behavior in other aspects of the game - I suppose I haven't entirely forgiven him for that unilateral fake field goal call, and this business of not getting the laces turned on FG and extra points is Beyond Bad.

 

He fits the "you can be a sweet dream...or a beautiful nightmare" of other Beane personnel choices, I guess - he does enough good that you can see how fantastic life could be if he would ONLY DO THAT CONSISTENTLY

 

But the crap ST play goes WAY beyond the punter.  It's coverage, it's return blocking.  No one has to worry about us nailing them deep or tearing off a good return against them, much less about blocking their punt or other trickery.