Dawson Knox and the TE position

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Well, I think you give him 4 years. At the very least you have a great #2 option behind whomever. He’s on a very cheap deal so I see no harm in keeping him around.

 

I absolutely agree, no harm in keeping him around. 

 

But here's the problem: right now he's listed on the Depth Chart as the #1 starting TE, with Kroft as #2 behind him.  We're not just keeping him around, he's our starter!  We're counting on him to contribute.

 

Meanwhile teams like KC and the Ravens and the Titans that we have to contend with to go anywhere have great strong contributing TE right now, as we speak, sometimes more than one.  So while we're starting a physically talented kid who might need 2.5 more years to develop, they're starting a fully-mature Orca, a Killer Whale.  It's almost like we're playing 10 vs 11 in a TE set (relative to the talent on the other team)

 

Then there's our #2.  Kroft seems like a hella nice guy, but he's like a Beluga whale or something.  It'll swim unnoticed in the deep blue sea of the gridiron.  Every few weeks it'll pop to the surface carrying a ball on its head and it's like OMG LOOK AT THAT IT"S KROFT AND HE JUST CAUGHT THE FOOTBALL AND IT'S A GREAT CATCH TD TD and then he disappears again. 

 

Our zoo curator neighbor raves about Belugas vs Killer whales and Dolphins.  She says Beluga Whales have just the sweetest personalities and are the most fun to play with.  As a young keeper she and a fellow keeper used to spend hours after work swimming with them, hugely enjoyable.  She says swim with an Orca and there's always an undertone of "Yeah, I could kill you any time and we both know it."  But if you want someone to be The Boss and do dramatic things on a regular basis in your show, you need an Orca. 

 

At some point, don't we need to look for the TE equivalent of an Orca?

 

 

[ghostwriter]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I absolutely agree, no harm in keeping him around. 

 

But here's the problem: right now he's listed on the Depth Chart as the #1 starting TE, with Kroft as #2 behind him.  We're not just keeping him around, he's our starter!  We're counting on him to contribute.

 

Meanwhile teams like KC and the Ravens and the Titans that we have to contend with to go anywhere have great strong contributing TE right now, as we speak, sometimes more than one.  So while we're starting a physically talented kid who might need 2.5 more years to develop, they're starting a fully-mature Orca, a Killer Whale.  It's almost like we're playing 10 vs 11 in a TE set (relative to the talent on the other team)

 

Then there's our #2.  Kroft seems like a hella nice guy, but he's like a Beluga whale or something.  It'll swim unnoticed in the deep blue sea of the gridiron.  Every few weeks it'll pop to the surface carrying a ball on its head and it's like OMG LOOK AT THAT IT"S KROFT AND HE JUST CAUGHT THE FOOTBALL AND IT'S A GREAT CATCH TD TD and then he disappears again. 

 

Our zoo curator neighbor raves about Belugas vs Killer whales and Dolphins.  She says Beluga Whales have just the sweetest personalities and are the most fun to play with.  As a young keeper she and a fellow keeper used to spend hours after work swimming with them, hugely enjoyable.  She says swim with an Orca and there's always an undertone of "Yeah, I could kill you any time and we both know it."  But if you want someone to be The Boss and do dramatic things on a regular basis in your show, you need an Orca. 

 

At some point, don't we need to look for the TE equivalent of an Orca?

 

 

I think they expected more.. no doubt.. think we all did.. we’ll likely see someone added next year..

[simpleman]

23 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

  I'm certainly not encouraged, but given the limited off-season practices and coaching, I think we may need to have some patience for improvement on young players. 

That is what the practice squad is for. Not the active roster. Knox needs to earn his spot on the roster. He has not. If you can't run proper routes in your 2nd year and  still can't consistently catch the ball, your place is on the practice squad. That is the place for players that you have patience for them to improve while in their 2nd year. Look at Zay Jones, on another team he still can't consistently catch the ball. Barely 50% of catches vs targets after 4 years (119/233). NFL teams can't afford too much patience on active roster players and still be winners.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by simpleman

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, simpleman said:

That is what the practice squad is for. Not the active roster. Knox needs to earn his spot on the roster. He has not. If you can't run proper routes in your 2nd year and  still can't consistently catch the ball, your place is on the practice squad. That is the place for players that you have patience for them to improve while in their 2nd year. Look at Zay Jones, on another team he still can't consistently catch the ball. Barely 50% of catches vs targets after 4 years (119/233). NFL teams can't afford too much patience on active roster players and still be winners.

 

 

This, I'm afraid.  The challenge of a player like Dawson Knox is that he's shown enough and is athletically talent enough that you'd never keep him on the practice squad, but he isn't quite "cutting the mustard" on the active roster.

[Lurker]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Then there's our #2.  Kroft seems like a hella nice guy, but he's like a Beluga whale or something. 

 

It would be great to have an Orca, but part of the reason for Kroft's Beluga-like behavior could be Daboll's individual game-planning for each opponent.   

 

Some weeks, the TE match-up might be there to be exploited and other weeks it may be better to feature the WRs.   So far, its been a heavy emphasis on the WRs, with less involvement of the TEs.   That may be due to a lack of confidence in the group, but I think its game-planning and design as much as anything...

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Lurker

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 10/16/2020 at 2:42 AM, pretzel logic said:

TE is the weakest position on the Bill's squad this season.......Dawson Knox isnt ready for average play in the NFL;Furthermore,  Kroft is uneventfully every wk just like in Cincy....

 

..we are a playoff team with a talented roster.....this build through the draft babble doesnt apply when you are sniffing an AFC east title and a deep run........get the greatest TE possible in Orchard Park  ASAP

 

...STILL mind boggling how TE spot seems to be our perennial Achilles heel.....but these kids need time to develop despite patience NOT being a virtue.....

[BuffAlone]

I'd rather have Knox on the field, even if only for his speed vs. the Chiefs. But alas, he's been ruled out of Monday's game. That's gonna hurt imo. It takes speed to beat speed. Hope Kroft has a good game. We need as many weapons as we can get

[YoloinOhio]

On 10/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He's on PUP.  He's eligible to come off after week 6, then the Bills have several weeks to either activate him or place him on IR

 

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This, I'm afraid.  The challenge of a player like Dawson Knox is that he's shown enough and is athletically talent enough that you'd never keep him on the practice squad, but he isn't quite "cutting the mustard" on the active roster.

 

I think Beane learns quickly. Their first few attempts to fill out our roster with WRs found guys that were physical mismatches (at least passing that eye test), but they had poor hands and catching radius.

 

He then went after Smoke, Beasley, Diggs, Davis... what do all these receivers have in common?

 

Phenomenal hands, then they still check off the other boxes. It does not matter if your WR has world class speed if he has hands of stone. The first thing a receiver has to be able to do is catch the ball.

 

I think at this stage I would trade the more steady hands of Kroft for the athleticism bonus you have with Knox.

 

It would give Allen another option to that reliable safety net that Diggs has been. We all saw how the Titans were double and tripling Josh's go-to receiver.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

I think Beane learns quickly. Their first few attempts to fill out our roster with WRs found guys that were physical mismatches (at least passing that eye test), but they had poor hands and catching radius.

 

He then went after Smoke, Beasley, Diggs, Davis... what do all these receivers have in common?

 

Phenomenal hands, then they still check off the other boxes. It does not matter if your WR has world class speed if he has hands of stone. The first thing a receiver has to be able to do is catch the ball.

 

I think at this stage I would trade the more steady hands of Kroft for the athleticism bonus you have with Knox.

 

It would give Allen another option to that reliable safety net that Diggs has been. We all saw how the Titans were double and tripling Josh's go-to receiver.

 

Not to diss on this theory, but I see two problems to it:

 

1) Small sample size, but right now Kroft has 5 receptions on 8 targets including 1 drop per pro football reference.  That's better than Knox at 16.5% drops - but not by much

2) Where in the world is Tyler Kroft now?  The last 4 games, he's been on the field 31, 44, 20, and 35 snaps.  That's about 50% of the offensive snaps in the game.  The Bills run 1-0 sets (no TE) a good bit (20%-ish).  It seems he's already taking snaps from Knox before the injury.   Yet he has a whopping 8 targets in 5 games - 5 in Week 3 vs Rams and 3 in Week 4 vs Raiders. 

 

So where is he? 

 

He's used to block a lot, I know.   I see glimpses of him from time to time running a route.   Does he need an 8' long orange fiberglass snow pole hooked to the back of his jersey to help Josh find him?  Does he not run good routes?  Does Josh just not trust his hands?  What?

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

Knox is the most frustrating player on the team. It's the same way I felt about Robert Foster last year. He's a classic case of elite athlete that can't actually play the game. The drops are one thing. But he also isn't very smart. He failed to read a blitz against the Titans so he wasn't in the right spot when Allen threw the ball. That is just as bad as a drop. There are also times when he misses his block assignment. Once or twice a game he has a great catch or gets YAC on pure athleticism or makes a great block but it doesn't make up for the constant mistakes. You can see the potential so I would like the Bills to demote him and let him develop off the field for another year. He might be 2 years away from hitting his ceiling, if he ever reaches it.

Edited October 17, 2020 by HappyDays

[WideNine]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not to diss on this theory, but I see two problems to it:

 

1) Small sample size, but right now Kroft has 5 receptions on 8 targets including 1 drop per pro football reference.  That's better than Knox at 16.5% drops - but not by much

2) Where in the world is Tyler Kroft now?  The last 4 games, he's been on the field 31, 44, 20, and 35 snaps.  That's about 50% of the offensive snaps in the game.  The Bills run 1-0 sets (no TE) a good bit (20%-ish).  It seems he's already taking snaps from Knox before the injury.   Yet he has a whopping 8 targets in 5 games - 5 in Week 3 vs Rams and 3 in Week 4 vs Raiders. 

 

So where is he? 

 

He's used to block a lot, I know.   I see glimpses of him from time to time running a route.   Does he need an 8' long orange fiberglass snow pole hooked to the back of his jersey to help Josh find him?  Does he not run good routes?  Does Josh just not trust his hands?  What?

 

 

 

 

Kroft has been on the field, but I believe he has had more blocking assignments in that #2 TE depth role.

 

It is not like he lost his hands after the Rams game. They had him in Knox's role with Lee Smith getting the bulk of the blocking assignments in their 12 package.

 

Daboll did have Lee release on a short curl for one TD, but I think he was Allens 4th or 5th read.

 

No worries about challenging my theory, its all good.

 

 

[HappyDays]

On 10/14/2020 at 12:16 PM, Mark Vader said:

How many passes were thrown to Knox last night? 2? The pass that he "dropped" was also a bit high.

 

He had three targets. One was a checkdown where he showed off his athleticism - great play. One was the drop. One he ran the wrong route because he didn't read the defense which resulted in an incompletion.

 

Why would we be forcing throws to Knox? He hasn't shown he can handle volume. Last year he had a 20% drop rate, this year he is at 16.7%. Progress!

 

Also if you're a tight end who can't high point the ball, you're not actually a tight end.

 

It's still early in his career but right now he's the same player he was as a rookie. 4th round picks don't get a long leash. He needs to show improvement soon if he wants to stick around in the league.

On 10/14/2020 at 12:57 PM, Putin said:

Nobody is expecting or asking of him to make acrobatic or spectacular catches just catch the damn ball that a high school player can make , I’m starting to believe that he’s hands are much worse then Zay John’s 

 

This. The conversation is starting to remind me of the early conversations on Zay Jones where everything was just an excuse for him. The pass wasn't precise enough or the defender made a great play or whatever. If a player is constantly finding himself in the middle of bad plays eventually you have to accept he just isn't any good. The one thing I'll say in Knox's favor is he has shown legitimate potential, whereas Zay Jones from day one showed nothing, but he hasn't shown any growth so I question if he will ever reach that potential.

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Well, I think you give him 4 years. At the very least you have a great #2 option behind whomever. He’s on a very cheap deal so I see no harm in keeping him around.

Since Bills negated the FB position in practical terms , Daboll was asking Knox to motion to the backfield for blocking quite a bit early on.

If he becomes a better Lee Smith who can also run a seam route ? Bills should build on that. and continue to upgrade with focus on making the position a strength for Allen to make use of since Josh has finally  learned to check down when the primary play call is covered 

But we certainly do not have the answer as a pass catching TE on the team yet.
 I can still hope he can reach a higher ceiling with his receiving skills , and soon !

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I absolutely agree, no harm in keeping him around. 

 

But here's the problem: right now he's listed on the Depth Chart as the #1 starting TE, with Kroft as #2 behind him.  We're not just keeping him around, he's our starter!  We're counting on him to contribute.

 

Meanwhile teams like KC and the Ravens and the Titans that we have to contend with to go anywhere have great strong contributing TE right now, as we speak, sometimes more than one.  So while we're starting a physically talented kid who might need 2.5 more years to develop, they're starting a fully-mature Orca, a Killer Whale.  It's almost like we're playing 10 vs 11 in a TE set (relative to the talent on the other team)

 

Then there's our #2.  Kroft seems like a hella nice guy, but he's like a Beluga whale or something.  It'll swim unnoticed in the deep blue sea of the gridiron.  Every few weeks it'll pop to the surface carrying a ball on its head and it's like OMG LOOK AT THAT IT"S KROFT AND HE JUST CAUGHT THE FOOTBALL AND IT'S A GREAT CATCH TD TD and then he disappears again. 

 

Our zoo curator neighbor raves about Belugas vs Killer whales and Dolphins.  She says Beluga Whales have just the sweetest personalities and are the most fun to play with.  As a young keeper she and a fellow keeper used to spend hours after work swimming with them, hugely enjoyable.  She says swim with an Orca and there's always an undertone of "Yeah, I could kill you any time and we both know it."  But if you want someone to be The Boss and do dramatic things on a regular basis in your show, you need an Orca. 

 

At some point, don't we need to look for the TE equivalent of an Orca?

 

 

When watching the Ravens play us last year. I wanted Bills to  become a Team chocked full of solid TEs
That was a brutal awfeense to defend for sure. for Bills and any team i imagine.
 

Bills curse is now living in the TE room.

If only Knox could become reliable ? This Offense would be level up from where currently rates this season

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

My Boy Tom Sweeney

 looking forward to seeing him this year.
was looking forward to watch him and Knox develop together over the years

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

 

No worries 😉 

Until next week 

[Putin]

22 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Since Bills negated the FB position in practical terms , Daboll was asking Knox to motion to the backfield for blocking quite a bit early on.

If he becomes a better Lee Smith who can also run a seam route ? Bills should build on that. and continue to upgrade with focus on making the position a strength for Allen to make use of since Josh has finally  learned to check down when the primary play call is covered 

But we certainly do not have the answer as a pass catching TE on the team yet.
 I can still hope he can reach a higher ceiling with his receiving skills , and soon !

In the Titans game where they were dropping 7 to prevent Josh from going deep besides Beasley would have been nice to have a TE who could have helped Josh to sort of 

( take what the defense gives you )  ? 

[WideNine]

21 hours ago, Putin said:

In the Titans game where they were dropping 7 to prevent Josh from going deep besides Beasley would have been nice to have a TE who could have helped Josh to sort of 

( take what the defense gives you )  ? 

 

This.

 

It pressures that robber/spy guy they have behind their line. If he skates with our TE Beasley has a free release to carve up their shallow zones, and he is no longer in his run gap.

 

TEs are mismatches for most DBs, safeties, and LBs. They usually have the edge in positioning leverage and jump balls, and can rack up the RAC even on dump offs.

 

The rest is up to Allen to be patient, but Daboll can help our eager QB by running this patient take-what-the-defense-is-giving offense UP TEMPO.

 

That only leaves the last detail - execution. You cannot run up-tempo if you're offense is a error-prone flag-generating machine.

 

Do this, and they have a good chance of forcing teams out of those deep zone defenses which opens things up for our WRs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by WideNine

[klos63]

5 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

I think Dawson Knox may develop into a good TE.. Very raw coming out, off the charts as far as athleticism and potential is concerned.. Sometimes you just have to let guys develop.. Not saying he will be good but I’m saying if he really puts in the effort he can be great.. He’s the Josh Allen of TEs..

"off the charts" ? does that mean potential to be one of the best ever?  I don't see what he has shown to be 'off the charts'.  He's made some nice plays, probably more bad ones.

[boater]

I haven't seen such TE negativity since the days of Lonnie "Freaking" Johnson. 'Cept the fans didn't say freaking.

 

I don't see a need for dramatic moves to pick up a new TE. The Bills can get one through the draft or try and score a middle tier free agent next spring.

 

I hope Knox gets fewer touches. He hasn't proved worthy.