Now who got the best end of the Mahomes-White trade?

[JMF2006]

2 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

You guys are the worst homers I ever saw

 

I think there is another 5 page thread about that

I  am still  undecided until I see who the Bills draft with the 170th pic in 2021

[SoTier]

44 minutes ago, Putin said:

I’m sorry I don’t think LUCK has anything to do with this , I believe our front office / scouting department did their homework , if anybody got lucky ( for now )  it’s Baltimore  , assuming Lamar will improve in  the passing game 

 

LUCK dominates the entire draft, but especially when teams suck it up and draft a QB in the first round.

 

The chances of a kid as raw as Allen was coming out of college even being discussed as an MVP candidate in his third season are infinitesimal.  This is why all the analysts are talking about him.   Lamar Jackson was a terror running and passing at Louisville.  The pros didn't like that he ran so much, and Louisville isn't SEC, so he was downgraded.  Allen didn't pass very well at a much smaller program than Louisville.  IMO, the only reason he was considered a first rounder was simply because of his arm.   If you don't think the Bills lucked out with Allen, you're rewriting history.

 

About fifty percent of all first round QBs drafted since 2000 have been either outright busts or disappointments, many of them guys with just as big arms as Allen and a lot better mechanics from the get-go.  He's the one of the very few "project QBs" drafted in the first round in the last twenty years who has actually panned out.  Allen's improvement is unprecedented, and it's a testament to his temperament, intelligence, and will and determination, which are impossible to gauge in the draft process, which is why they're called "intangibles".  

 

Luck wasn't just on the Bills side.  Allen got a good helping of it, too.   Allen came to the Bills at the right time, when the organization had changed enough so that it was willing to support him with coaching, protection, and training.  If he had come to the Bills in 2004 or 2013,  or if he'd been drafted by the Jests, he'd be considered just another failed "project QB".

[DaggersEOD]

50 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It’s not close. One team has an MVP QB who has won a Super Bowl already. One team does not.

While Mahomes already won the MVP, JA is proving he’s of the same caliber by being in the MVP conversation this year. 
 

The Super Bowl is a Team Accomplishment IMO and while Mahomes certainly had a lot to do with that, I think it’s only a side bar to this conversation. 
 

I think they both possess a dominant talent and by the end of this year, may also possess similar accolades. 
 

While (per the pole so far) most fans still value Mahomes more (for good reason) I also don’t think those same fans can honestly say the gap hasn’t shrunk dramatically this year.

[jkeerie]

Option 3.  Both teams won.  

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, ClemsonBills said:

You wouldn’t trade Josh for the MVP, Super Bowl MVP, and Super Bowl champ? But the Chiefs won the trade and it isn’t even close? Hmmm

Yeah I was getting ready to say the same thing. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by whorlnut

[nucci]

2 hours ago, GreggTX said:

For the last 2 years, I've thought the Chiefs got the better of us when they moved up to #10 and drafted Mahomes while we got very valuable draft picks and a top CB. Now that Allen has come of age, the question deserves to be revisited? Mahomes has won a SB, a SB MVP and a league MVP. Pretty impressive. The Bills have never won a SB, but each week Josh Allen looks more and more like a QB that could give us the grand prize since 1964-1965. Will Josh Allen be sporting a SB ring some day? Will he win more rings than Mahomes? Clearly both teams benfitted from that blockbuster trade, but who got the better deal?

there you go

[TBBills]

2 hours ago, GreggTX said:

For the last 2 years, I've thought the Chiefs got the better of us when they moved up to #10 and drafted Mahomes while we got very valuable draft picks and a top CB. Now that Allen has come of age, the question deserves to be revisited? Mahomes has won a SB, a SB MVP and a league MVP. Pretty impressive. The Bills have never won a SB, but each week Josh Allen looks more and more like a QB that could give us the grand prize since 1964-1965. Will Josh Allen be sporting a SB ring some day? Will he win more rings than Mahomes? Clearly both teams benfitted from that blockbuster trade, but who got the better deal?

Suoerbowl

[Chuck Wagon]

It's Mahomes until Allen wins a ring.

[TBBills]

Just now, Chuck Wagon said:

It's Mahomes until Allen wins a ring.

It will probably always be Mahomes... Unless Allen wins 2

[FireChans]

56 minutes ago, DaggersEOD said:

While Mahomes already won the MVP, JA is proving he’s of the same caliber by being in the MVP conversation this year. 
 

The Super Bowl is a Team Accomplishment IMO and while Mahomes certainly had a lot to do with that, I think it’s only a side bar to this conversation. 
 

I think they both possess a dominant talent and by the end of this year, may also possess similar accolades. 
 

While (per the pole so far) most fans still value Mahomes more (for good reason) I also don’t think those same fans can honestly say the gap hasn’t shrunk dramatically this year.

Josh has 12 games to go, not to

mention the playoffs. He’s had a great 4 games.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Let me see what I said in the other thread on this 

 

BRB

[NewEra]

Tell you in 15 years.  
 

as of now, the chiefs have a super bowl.  
The winner after year 2.25 is the chiefs.

 

 

[Don Otreply]

🥱 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

LUCK dominates the entire draft, but especially when teams suck it up and draft a QB in the first round.

 

The chances of a kid as raw as Allen was coming out of college even being discussed as an MVP candidate in his third season are infinitesimal.  This is why all the analysts are talking about him.   Lamar Jackson was a terror running and passing at Louisville.  The pros didn't like that he ran so much, and Louisville isn't SEC, so he was downgraded.  Allen didn't pass very well at a much smaller program than Louisville.  IMO, the only reason he was considered a first rounder was simply because of his arm.   If you don't think the Bills lucked out with Allen, you're rewriting history.

 

About fifty percent of all first round QBs drafted since 2000 have been either outright busts or disappointments, many of them guys with just as big arms as Allen and a lot better mechanics from the get-go.  He's the one of the very few "project QBs" drafted in the first round in the last twenty years who has actually panned out.  Allen's improvement is unprecedented, and it's a testament to his temperament, intelligence, and will and determination, which are impossible to gauge in the draft process, which is why they're called "intangibles".  

 

Luck wasn't just on the Bills side.  Allen got a good helping of it, too.   Allen came to the Bills at the right time, when the organization had changed enough so that it was willing to support him with coaching, protection, and training.  If he had come to the Bills in 2004 or 2013,  or if he'd been drafted by the Jests, he'd be considered just another failed "project QB".

Luck.  This is the best new flavor of the week haterade.  
 

LUCK.  Beane isn’t good.  He’s lucky because his players turned out to be good.  The same can be said for every Gm in the league.  
 

 

37 minutes ago, TBBills said:

It will probably always be Mahomes... Unless Allen wins 2

Mahomes isn’t done

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

It’s not close. One team has an MVP QB who has won a Super Bowl already. One team does not.

 

 

No, that is incorrect, that the "MVP QB ... has won a Super Bowl already." If you go and look who won the Super Bowl, you will find that it was an entire football team, called the Kansas City Chiefs. 

 

What Mahomes did is he played quarterback on the Chiefs for the last two years. Very very well.

 

What you do when you try to figure who won a trade is to figure out which group of the players who got traded is better. The fact that the Chiefs have Kelce and Hill, for example, has nothing whatsoever to do with who got the better side of that trade, and a great deal to do with the overall success of the Chiefs.

 

It's extremely close. If Allen continues playing at this level, and so does White, we won, IMO, but it would absolutely be extremely close.

 

 

1 hour ago, jkeerie said:

Option 3.  Both teams won.  

 

 

Yeah, this is another very fair way to look at it.

 

But a few months ago there were plenty out there who "knew" that KC had won that trade and that we'd lost.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Thurman#1

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, that is incorrect, that the "MVP QB ... has won a Super Bowl already." If you go and look who won the Super Bowl, you will find that it was an entire football team, called the Kansas City Chiefs. 

 

What Mahomes did is he played quarterback on the Chiefs for the last two years. Very very well.

 

What you do when you try to figure who won a trade is to figure out which group of the players who got traded is better. The fact that the Chiefs have Kelce and Hill, for example, has nothing whatsoever to do with who got the better side of that trade, and a great deal to do with the overall success of the Chiefs.

 

It's extremely close. If Allen continues playing at this level, and so does White, we won, IMO, but it would absolutely be extremely close.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, this is another very fair way to look at it.

 

But a few months ago there were plenty out there who "knew" that KC had won that trade and that we'd lost.

Patrick Mahomes played for the Chiefs in that Super Bowl, won the game as a started and won SB MVP.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_LIV

 

This isn’t a debate.

 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

Lol!

 

i don’t know what triggers some fans more.

the fear of trading out of drafting Mahomes or the fear that Lamar Jackson is having the most success from the 2018 QB Class.

 

it really irks some folks.

[Albany,n.y.]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

LUCK dominates the entire draft, but especially when teams suck it up and draft a QB in the first round.

 

The chances of a kid as raw as Allen was coming out of college even being discussed as an MVP candidate in his third season are infinitesimal.  This is why all the analysts are talking about him.   Lamar Jackson was a terror running and passing at Louisville.  The pros didn't like that he ran so much, and Louisville isn't SEC, so he was downgraded.  Allen didn't pass very well at a much smaller program than Louisville.  IMO, the only reason he was considered a first rounder was simply because of his arm.   If you don't think the Bills lucked out with Allen, you're rewriting history.

 

About fifty percent of all first round QBs drafted since 2000 have been either outright busts or disappointments, many of them guys with just as big arms as Allen and a lot better mechanics from the get-go.  He's the one of the very few "project QBs" drafted in the first round in the last twenty years who has actually panned out.  Allen's improvement is unprecedented, and it's a testament to his temperament, intelligence, and will and determination, which are impossible to gauge in the draft process, which is why they're called "intangibles".  

 

Luck wasn't just on the Bills side.  Allen got a good helping of it, too.   Allen came to the Bills at the right time, when the organization had changed enough so that it was willing to support him with coaching, protection, and training.  If he had come to the Bills in 2004 or 2013,  or if he'd been drafted by the Jests, he'd be considered just another failed "project QB".

I'll take good management over luck in weeding out the failures. The Bills didn't take Allen on a lark.  Go to the thread What did so many experts miss about Josh Allen & look at some of the stuff posted.  Things that indicated the Bills did due diligence with Allen are available there including that the Bills looked at film of everything Allen did in Wyoming, the 3 separate visits with Allen not even including the emotional phone call the day of the draft where the Bills talked about 30 minutes with Allen about his teenage Twitter posts.  Then the game that most impressed Beane was a game where Josh had horrible stats yet almost willed the team to victory in the rain & snow.

Contrast that with the Russell interview with Detroit where both the coach and GM kicked him out of their offices for his lackadaisical attitude and Matt Millen calling Al Davis to warn him not to draft Russell but Davis who at that point in his life was the epitome of bad management didn't listen to Millen. 

 

A lot of QB draft mistakes can be eliminated by good management & doing their homework on a player instead of just getting enamored by certain attributes.  Look back at the Bills 2 prior 1st round draft failures.  Tom Donahoe tried to move up for Roethlisberger & panicked and drafted JP Losman.  Do you think Donahoe had scouts look at every throw  JP made, interviewed Losman 3 times including visits to his school's town and Buffalo and talked at length with his coaches-I seriously doubt that since his target was Roethlisberger but he either didn't have the draft capital to move past Pittsburgh or was unwilling to pay the price necessary to move up.  When the Bills drafted EJ Manuel Nix had boxed himself into a corner and chose a QB in the worst QB class in years.  Once again I doubt the Bills did anywhere near the due diligence that current Bills management did with Allen.  

 

When a QB fails a lot of people blame the coaches.  I blame the GM & scouts more because they just didn't do enough due diligence including multiple interviews, live scouting by the GM, and tons of film study.   The Bills did just about everything a team could do before drafting Allen.  I'd bet most QBs drafted in the 1st round get less than half the pre-draft attention the Bills did with Allen. 

 

The only luck the Bills had was the draft falling into their laps. If the Giants had drafted Allen instead of Barkley all the Bills planning & studying would have gone down the drain & we would have been as screwed as Donahoe was when Pittsburgh took Roethlisberger.  

 

Luck is the residue of design.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Albany,n.y.

[Thurman#1]

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Patrick Mahomes played for the Chiefs in that Super Bowl, won the game as a started and won SB MVP.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_LIV

 

This isn’t a debate.

 

 

 

Missed the point again, hunh? Maybe I didn't explain well enough. You said that the QB won the game. That is wrong. You're quite correct that that is not a debate. You're just wrong.

 

Here is what it does NOT say when you look up the winners of the Super Bowl:

 

2016:  New England Patriots

2017:  Philadelphia Eagles

2018:  New England Patriots:

2019:  Patrick Mahomes

 

It doesn't say that, nor will it ever. Mahomes didn't win the game, he played in it, on the winning team. The winners were the whole team, the Chiefs. What Mahomes did was play QB. On a team with an excellent roster, a team that probably, for example, doesn't win that Super Bowl without trading for Frank Clark and Tyrann Mathieu. A lot of things came together to add up to that SB win.

 

And while a Super Bowl win absolutely vindicates the direction your FO has taken, and certainly makes it clear that that trade was successful for the Chiefs, it doesn't say anything about which of the two teams was more successful. That depends on the talent level of the players traded.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Thurman#1

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Missed the point again, hunh? Maybe I didn't explain well enough. You said that the QB won the game. That is wrong. You're quite correct that that is not a debate. You're just wrong.

 

Here is what it does NOT say when you look up the winners of the Super Bowl:

 

2016:  New England Patriots

2017:  Philadelphia Eagles

2018:  New England Patriots:

2019:  Patrick Mahomes

 

It doesn't say that, nor will it ever. Mahomes didn't win the game, he played in it, on the winning team. The winners were the whole team, the Chiefs. What Mahomes did was play QB. On a team with an excellent roster, a team that probably, for example, doesn't win that Super Bowl without trading for Frank Clark and Tyrann Mathieu. A lot of things came together to add up to that SB win.

 

And while a Super Bowl win absolutely vindicates the direction your FO has taken, and certainly makes it clear that that trade was successful for the Chiefs, it doesn't say anything about which of the two teams was more successful. That depends on the talent level of the players traded.

He was the most valuable player in a Super Bowl win. Patrick Mahomes won a Super Bowl. This is accepted vernacular and has been for decades. Tom Brady won 6 Super Bowls.

 

 Your weird semantic argument is embarrassing.

Edited October 11, 2020 by FireChans