Right Wing Terrorists Arrested In Kidnaping Plot Of Governor Whitmer

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

Peaceful protesting?  You're full of 💩. I guess that's what happened in Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, Kenosha, NYC, Baltimore, DC, Richmond, Chicago, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Every time you put your fingers to a keyboard you show yourself to be more and more of a clown. 

 

Having actually been to Portland during the alleged chaos I can tell you that folks get up go to work and it is business as usual and the city is not a smoldering leftist ruin.

 

There is a 2 block radius where radical elements clashed about every night. Trump and some pretty irresponsible media morphed 1 dude throwing a burning trash can into a militant clash in Lebanon.

 

Ridiculous. And only caused right-wing militia and anarchist groups to flock to Trump's thinly-veiled call to arms.

 

He and those who propped up his regime are unfit for office.

 

 

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I'm not all that up on the Compromise but at first glance I'm not sure what it has to do with the EC.  

 

 

Time to read up on American history.  The Compromise of 1850 was hammered out to keep the number of slave states and free states equal as territories in the Lousiana Purchase, the Mexican Cession, and Texas Annexation became states.  It maintained the balance of power in the US Senate but it also enabled the South to force the two political parties of the time, the Democrats and Whigs, to nominate presidential candidates who were acceptable to the South as candidates needed southern electoral votes to win the presidency.   It averted a civil war in 1850 but set the stage for the Civil War in 1861 because during the late 1840s and through the 1850s, the population in the North and West (we would call that the Midwest today) exploded, especially with an influx of immigrants from Ireland and Germany who didn't want to compete with Black slaves or were philosophically opposed to slavery.  In the election of 1860, Abraham Lincoln won a majority of EC votes (180) although he won less than forty percent of the popular vote against 3 opponents, which caused the southern states to secede.

Edited October 9, 2020 by SoTier

[Dragoon]

28 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

If you are referring to churches being closed mine was by our Republican governor under his emergency powers, and appropriately so.  We switched to virtual services and our congregation continues on.  Christianity is about living the Gospels and not a building.

 

If you're a devout Christian you'll find me woefully secular. If you're secular, you'll find me a religious extremist. I'm neither. I consider myself christian but far from practicing.

 

That said, I do not consent to any politicians "authority" to restrict my Bill of Rights. I will peacefully assemble wherever the **** I want, and to me that's a hill worth dying on. I'm a stickler for freedom. 

[Capco]

6 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

Do you seriously want small pockets of large population centers determining our President?  I don’t. 

 

That's preferable to small pockets of small populations having say over larger populations.

 

That's traditionally known as tyranny, btw.  

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Dragoon said:

 

If you're a devout Christian you'll find me woefully secular. If you're secular, you'll find me a religious extremist. I'm neither. I consider myself christian but far from practicing.

 

That said, I do not consent to any politicians "authority" to restrict my Bill of Rights. I will peacefully assemble wherever the **** I want, and to me that's a hill worth dying on. I'm a stickler for freedom. 

I generally agree.  We faced a public health crisis and governors have emergency powers under such circumstance.  I would love it if we could rely on the good judgment of citizens to band together for the common good but sadly that has not been the case.

[Chef Jim]

12 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

That's preferable to small pockets of small populations having say over larger populations.

 

That's traditionally known as tyranny, btw.  

 

What small tyrannical pockets are you worried about?  

[snafu]

6 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

That's preferable to small pockets of small populations having say over larger populations.

 

That's traditionally known as tyranny, btw.  

 

Do you think the Electoral College is a form of tyranny?

It is in place to permit States to have their individual voices -- in proportion to their population and representation in Congress.  This is still important, even though (1) the Executive branch has grown larger and more influential than the Legislative, and (b) Federal powers have eaten away at traditionally local governance.  I'm sure you realize that different states and regions have different expectations from their governments.

 

[Chef Jim]

37 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Having actually been to Portland during the alleged chaos I can tell you that folks get up go to work and it is business as usual and the city is not a smoldering leftist ruin.

 

There is a 2 block radius where radical elements clashed about every night. Trump and some pretty irresponsible media morphed 1 dude throwing a burning trash can into a militant clash in Lebanon.

 

Ridiculous. And only caused right-wing militia and anarchist groups to flock to Trump's thinly-veiled call to arms.

 

He and those who propped up his regime are unfit for office.

 

 

 

Well then.  It's only 2 blocks so what the hey.   Let's turn a blind eye.  

 

Tourism dollars are huge to a city. Just ask how pissed Anaheim is with Disneyland closed.  In my mind it is the duty of the city council/supervisors to market their cities to various tourism boards.  I can only imagine how much money San Francisco has lost over the years due to companies refusing to come back for the conferences because of to the homeless and filth problem there.  So if Portland is ok with losing money due to people never wanting to visit that's their bed they've made.  And it may only be 2 blocks but perception is everything and the perception is that in Portland the inmates are running the asylum.  

[Cinga]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

2 hours ago, H2o said:

Ok so by your logic shouldn't all of the mobs, riots, looters, arsonists, be labeled left wing nut jobs by the MSM then? I mean Maxine Waters, Pressley, AOC, and other Dem Congress members were calling for unrest and violence in the streets. 

Peaceful protesting is part of America. You guys don't have the facts of your side so you make itr seem like things are worse than they are. 

 

Excusing right wing terrorism. There is nothing you guys won't excuse. 

 

really now Tibs? He asked you about Mobs, Riots, Looters, and Arsonists and you call them peaceful? What alternate universe is this in?

[Dragoon]

27 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I generally agree.  We faced a public health crisis and governors have emergency powers under such circumstance.  I would love it if we could rely on the good judgment of citizens to band together for the common good but sadly that has not been the case.

Individual responsibility. 
 

Im terrified that you’re not terrified about the authoritarian measures that were taken over Covid....were not talking about airborne Ebola here. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

14 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Do you think the Electoral College is a form of tyranny?

It is in place to permit States to have their individual voices -- in proportion to their population and representation in Congress.  This is still important, even though (1) the Executive branch has grown larger and more influential than the Legislative, and (b) Federal powers have eaten away at traditionally local governance.  I'm sure you realize that different states and regions have different expectations from their governments.

 

 

...it was created in 1787 via Constitutional Convention......and has worked as intended up until 2016 when the Dems cried foul because the pantsuit lost.....immediately followed by ideas to abolish it......coincidental or poor losers?...hmm......therein lies the declining nature of abhorrent dirty politics.....lose by the rules and then squawk to change them...pathetic....

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Peaceful protesting is part of America. You guys don't have the facts of your side so you make itr seem like things are worse than they are. 

 

Excusing right wing terrorism. There is nothing you guys won't excuse. 

 

 

 

 

..and WHERE has THAT occurred?.....Portland?...Seattle?....Minneapolis?.....now Madison and LA?......Fecal Freddie offering up his usual non sequitor gibberish......as expected....

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Individual responsibility. 
 

Im terrified that you’re not terrified about the authoritarian measures that were taken over Covid....were not talking about airborne Ebola here. 

Ebola dies out quickly in air.  There’s a reason Ebola outbreaks die down quickly; because people get sick quickly and die quickly.  Covid is a very contagious virus that spreads through the air, has a longer incubation time, and can be spread by non-symptomatic people.

 

As I said it would have been great to rely on individual responsibility in a public health crisis, but people were and continue to be irresponsible.

[SoTier]

10 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

That's preferable to small pockets of small populations having say over larger populations.

 

That's traditionally known as tyranny, btw.  

 

The direct election of the POTUS is about 1 man (or woman), 1 vote.  If you live in New York or California and vote for Trump, your vote doesn't really count because the Trump voters are so out numbered by Biden voters.   If you live in Mississippi or Wyoming and vote for Biden, your vote doesn't really count either because Biden voters are so outnumbered by Trump voters.  If you live in Florida or Pennsylvania, who you vote for may very well determine the election so your vote counts more than the votes of some other American voters; in 2000, GWB won Florida by 537 votes and won the EC by 5 votes although he lost the popular vote by about half a million.   Without the Electoral College, all votes would count equally regardless of the voters' states of residence.  

 

As for the small population vs large population argument, that ship sailed long ago.  This is not 1789 when states were isolated and there were significant differences among them.  This is not 1920 when half the US population lived in urban areas and half in rural areas.  This is 2020 when 80% of Americans live in urban metros.   We are one nation with a predominant national culture.  We should elect our national leader on that basis rather than pretending to be just a collection of disparate states.   That issue was settled back in the 1860s, and how we elect our president should reflect the reality of modern America, not an outmoded eighteenth century fear of direct democracy.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

..and WHERE has THAT occurred?.....Portland?...Seattle?....Minneapolis?.....now Madison and LA?......Fecal Freddie offering up his usual non sequitor gibberish......as expected....

My friend, hope you are doing well.  All the above have many more peaceful protestors than non.  The looters etc.  should be arrested of course, but my understanding is you have both far left and far right groups taking advantage of these situations to foment the bad stuff.

[Dragoon]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ebola dies out quickly in air.  There’s a reason Ebola outbreaks die down quickly; because people get sick quickly and die quickly.  Covid is a very contagious virus that spreads through the air, has a longer incubation time, and can be spread by non-symptomatic people.

 

As I said it would have been great to rely on individual responsibility in a public health crisis, but people were and continue to be irresponsible.

Bro, the Ebola reference was more to do with its casualty rate. 
 

Look, people don’t return their shopping carts and some aren’t gonna wear masks. That’s life. Restriction of the bill of rights is not a solution and one I’ll lock and load against. It is a hill worthy of dying on. 
 

If you’d sacrifice my freedom for perceived safety from a virus that fails to kill over 99% of its victims, my position is you’re a bad American. I’m not trying to insult you but I find the attitude callow and unAmerican. 

[Capco]

14 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

Do you think the Electoral College is a form of tyranny?

It is in place to permit States to have their individual voices -- in proportion to their population and representation in Congress.  This is still important, even though (1) the Executive branch has grown larger and more influential than the Legislative, and (b) Federal powers have eaten away at traditionally local governance.  I'm sure you realize that different states and regions have different expectations from their governments.

 

 

The EC in its current form has a number of bad side effects. 

 

For starters, the popular vote is irrelevant, which means that minority rule of the executive is a possibility (like today).  Low population states have a higher number of electors per capita than populous states do.  US citizens living in US territories and possessions do not have a say since they do not have Electors.  There is a near-exclusive focus on swing states since they are so determinative, and this leads to poorer voter turnout in the rest of the states. 

 

Let's also not forget how the 3/5th Compromise allowed Southern states to disenfranchise their black slave populations while simultaneously allowing them to increase their representation in the federal via apportionment (i.e. the number of congressional seats awarded to each state, and in turn the number of Electors).  In addition, recall that women did not have the right to vote in 1789.  In a popular voting scheme, a state could vastly increase its say in presidential elections if they granted women or slaves the right to vote.  Therefore, the EC did not incentivize increasing the franchise whereas a popular voting system would have.  

 

Altogether, that makes arbitrary areas of land have more say than actual people.  Does that sound more like freedom or tyranny to you?  Is majority rule more akin to freedom or to tyranny?  Is higher voter turnout more akin to freedom or to tyranny?  Is the disenfranchisement of certain groups more akin to freedom or to tyranny?

 

I think the best way forward with regards to the EC in the current political climate is not abolishment, but alteration.  The winner-take-all system for awarding Electors should not be an option; instead, Electors should be distributed proportionally based on the results of the votes within the states.  That would also dramatically open up the door for 3rd party candidates as well while maintaining the notion that the US is a federal republic.  

[oldmanfan]

16 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Bro, the Ebola reference was more to do with its casualty rate. 
 

Look, people don’t return their shopping carts and some aren’t gonna wear masks. That’s life. Restriction of the bill of rights is not a solution and one I’ll lock and load against. It is a hill worthy of dying on. 
 

If you’d sacrifice my freedom for perceived safety from a virus that fails to kill over 99% of its victims, my position is you’re a bad American. I’m not trying to insult you but I find the attitude callow and unAmerican. 

My position is in a national crisis we should all band together as Americans and your not wearing a mask says you’re OK with killing your neighbor.  

Edited October 9, 2020 by oldmanfan

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

12 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

My friend, hope you are doing well.  All the above have many more peaceful protestors than non.  The looters etc.  should be arrested of course, but my understanding is you have both far left and far right groups taking advantage of these situations to foment the bad stuff.

 

 

...I'm doing good friend and sincerely hope the same for you and the family.......and your observation is precisely correct......at the same time, I will forever maintain BLM is a woefully fraudulent movement.....it is the exploitative "Gimme Gang" looking for a handout...their own purported "Leader(COUGH)" said "looting is a form of reparations".....and how many BLACK OWNED BUSINESSES have been destroyed for "reparations"??....and that zero drive, gimme segment indicts those balck citizens who have become educated at whatever level those chose, HS, college or graduate work, have successful jobs, strong families/values or even those with the entrepreneurial spirit have their own flourishing businesses (unless the "peacefuls" destroyed them) who are now looked at as obvious "BLM's" solely on skin color...it sickens me......

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...I'm doing good friend and sincerely hope the same for you and the family.......and your observation is precisely correct......at the same time, I will forever maintain BLM is a woefully fraudulent movement.....it is the exploitative "Gimme Gang" looking for a handout...their own purported "Leader(COUGH)" said "looting is a form of reparations".....and how many BLACK OWNED BUSINESSES have been destroyed for "reparations"??....and that zero drive, gimme segment indicts those balck citizens who have become educated at whatever level those chose, HS, college or graduate work, have successful jobs, strong families/values or even those with the entrepreneurial spirit have their own flourishing businesses (unless the "peacefuls" destroyed them) who are now looked at as obvious "BLM's" solely on skin color...it sickens me......

The three or so leaders of the BLM organization going on about the country becoming Marxist are loons and not to be taken seriously.  The concept of Black Lives Matter is a serious one however and one I support.  I know a number of students and other individuals in my town that have suffered from discriminatory practices.  Time for that to end.