Additional information regarding the actions taken

[CarpetCrawler]

29 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

No. 
 

Anyone else not notice?  

 

It's a Left Wing tactic, whatever dirty trick they use, they quickly accuse the Right of before they think anyone notices.

Edited October 7, 2020 by CarpetCrawler

[meazza]

45 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Well, dude, if you didn't keep posting in threads I happen to be reading and/or responding to my posts, I wouldn't see your posts and/or get notifications that you quoted me.   You'll just have to learn to deal with it -- or learn how to use the "Ignore Function".   I ain't goin' nowhere, especially not to accommodate you. 

 

Sucks to be you then asshat.

[Q-baby!]

[TBBills]

13 minutes ago, CarpetCrawler said:

 

It's a Left Wing tactic, whatever dirty trick they use, they quickly accuse the Right of before they think anyone notices.

You guys cannot help from lying... its like Trump rubbed off on all of you.

[CarpetCrawler]

3 minutes ago, TBBills said:

You guys cannot help from lying... its like Trump rubbed off on all of you.

HaHa, good one. I guess that would make me orange too.

[keepthefaith]

58 minutes ago, TBBills said:

People that blindly follow Trump and ignore anything bad he does... People that post conspiracy theories about the left and pretend anything about the right is "fake news" 

 

The fact that you couldn't see that looking at those people's post is why I didn't care to explain it to you. 

 

Oh yeah and Chef you never once asked me that once again you got caught lying.

 

And this is what's wrong with most political discourse here, in the media and among Americans all over.    Factless, pointless, totally unproductive. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, keepthefaith said:

Can you point me to where donations are submitted?  I poked around the site a bit and didn't find how/where to do that.

 

 

Note that @SDS said that nothing is expected, he just recognizes some people wish to donate and donating is a good feeling for some.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, meazza said:

Exactly.  TYTT is a pretty straight forward person.  Of course this is @shoshin and @Simon we're talking about.   

 

Hi.  Add Me.

 

I don't draw conclusions if someone says "make Meazza hurt".  Maybe they're "just" talking about trying to damage an enterprise you fund and they've been enjoying cost-free to themselves on your dime for years because now you've done something they disagree with.  Maybe they're talking about showing up on your doorstep - one of the joys of being a volunteer unpaid mod is actually having that threat made from time to time.  Stuff does spill over from online to IRL, has been seen.  I don't assume, ever, that I know someone or understand their character from knowing them over a bulletin board.  Over 35-ish years of online life I've learned that the hard way.

 

Whatever it was, I thought it was junky talk.  JMO.

[meazza]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hi.  Add Me.

 

I don't draw conclusions if someone says "make Meazza hurt".  Maybe they're "just" talking about trying to damage an enterprise you fund and they've been enjoying cost-free to themselves on your dime for years because now you've done something they disagree with.  Maybe they're talking about showing up on your doorstep - one of the joys of being a volunteer unpaid mod is actually having that threat made from time to time.  Stuff does spill over from online to IRL, has been seen.  I don't assume, ever, that I know someone or understand their character from knowing them over a bulletin board.  Over 35-ish years of online life I've learned that the hard way.

 

Whatever it was, I thought it was junky talk.  JMO.

I didn’t say I condone it but let’s not get carried away.  It was obvious that he was referring to a boycott because with his very next post said good bye.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, meazza said:

I didn’t say I condone it but let’s not get carried away.  It was obvious that he was referring to a boycott because with his very next post said good bye.  

 

I'm not getting carried away.  I'm just saying I don't draw conclusions online that people "only" mean this or that, and saying "goodbye" right afterwards doesn't prove a thing.  I'm not saying it's a RL threat, I'm just saying at best it's ambiguous.  35 years online.  I've seen this-n-that.

 

If I had $100 for every time someone on this board has told me, as a mod, that they're leaving forever because of XX that was done, and have either been back within a couple months or have started a new identity and been back within minutes,  I could fund me a nice vacay.  REAL nice.

 

Ain't classy talk, maybe we can agree there.

[meazza]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not getting carried away.  I'm just saying I don't draw conclusions online that people "only" mean this or that, and saying "goodbye" right afterwards doesn't prove a thing.  I'm not saying it's a RL threat, I'm just saying at best it's ambiguous.  35 years online.  I've seen this-n-that.

 

If I had $100 for every time someone on this board has told me, as a mod, that they're leaving forever because of XX that was done, and have either been back within a couple months or have started a new identity and been back within minutes,  I could fund me a nice vacay.  REAL nice.

 

Ain't classy talk, maybe we can agree there.

I literally just did that but I wasn’t talk about that.

[shoshin]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hi.  Add Me.

 

I don't draw conclusions if someone says "make Meazza hurt".  Maybe they're "just" talking about trying to damage an enterprise you fund and they've been enjoying cost-free to themselves on your dime for years because now you've done something they disagree with.  Maybe they're talking about showing up on your doorstep - one of the joys of being a volunteer unpaid mod is actually having that threat made from time to time.  Stuff does spill over from online to IRL, has been seen.  I don't assume, ever, that I know someone or understand their character from knowing them over a bulletin board.  Over 35-ish years of online life I've learned that the hard way.

 

Whatever it was, I thought it was junky talk.  JMO.

He either

 

(1) threatened vaguely on the internet to make SDS hurt (some kind of site attack or whatever), or

 

your and others’ theory,

 

(2) He wanted to hurt SDS by convincing a handful of posters in a politics subforum on a football site to quit. Ouch the pain, the pain. 
 

Occam’s Razor says maybe you’re right and he was just really full of his self importance in #2. I asked him and he never clarified so who knows but I will go with you on this. 
 

Maybe he can also sue me for defamation of his anonymous username. 

[FireChans]

On 10/7/2020 at 8:13 AM, shoshin said:

He either

 

(1) threatened vaguely on the internet to make SDS hurt (some kind of site attack or whatever), or

 

your and others’ theory,

 

(2) He wanted to hurt SDS by convincing a handful of posters in a politics subforum on a football site to quit. Ouch the pain, the pain. 
 

Occam’s Razor says maybe you’re right and he was just really full of his self importance in #2. I asked him and he never clarified so who knows but I will go with you on this. 
 

Maybe he can also sue me for defamation of his anonymous username. 

Self-importance is TBD's middle name. Just ask Simon, ....... And he's STILL a mod lol.

 

[SDS]

On 10/5/2020 at 11:56 PM, Foxx said:

i did not want to jump into this discussion. however, i can not sleep due to the bad taste that this whole situation has left in my mouth. 

 

this your sandbox and we are all here by your good graces. your house, your rules. it is a beautiful site you have created, well rounded and vibrant.

 

with that said, as you said, this is your point of view.  from where i sit, it is not very professional, nor right to come out with 'your view' as to the course of events while having the, 'alleged' offending party unable to defend themselves because they were banned by, you. this is tantamount to 'pushing a narrative' with no real discussion allowed except for those thoughts of outside parties.

 

from life experiences, i know that more often than not, there is one side and the other side and more often than not, the actual truth of a situation lies somewhere in between. however, we shall never get to hear directly from both sides.

 

case in point:

again, from my perspective, this does seem to be somewhat of a large distinction. from a legal perspective, sympathizing with and being are two major differences. a difference that will land one years in a penitentiary.

 

 

 

***** it, i don't care at this point, while i'm here... just an observation or two on recent events of the past few months.

 

@Deranged Rhino was banned, then i was banned, then @Hedge was banned, then @B-Man was banned, all within the span of roughly three weeks. DR was banned for a call out thread, of which he privately acknowledged being wrong for doing. Hedge was banned for posting the longest joke in the world, when it had become standard fare down here to disrupt what many are of the opinion of being stupid threads mainly by posting recipes and then discussing food. B-Man caught a suspension for merely quoting the longest joke in the world. myself, i managed to catch a suspension for posting on the main board, in a political thread. as i admitted to others, i probably deserved the suspension, though imo, there were much worse comments in that, political thread on TSW. what i thought was kind of bush league, again was not the actual act of being suspended, i'm a big boy i can handle *****, but rather the desire you had to make it personal. when things stray from being professional then it becomes a problem in my book.

 

with regard to DR's, Hedge's and B-man's suspensions, there is no uniformity in the discipline. we are told PPP is a mod free zone, you guys take care of it yourselves. so we do and then all of a sudden there is moderation and discipline. the sum of the parts just doesn't add up to be quite frank.

 

from my point of view, it stinks of persecution. anyone who ventures into the shoutbox can see your political stance on display. if you don't want your website to be affiliated with those who do not buy the national syndicated narrative, just say so. who did you ban from the liberal side of the political spectrum? the only one i am aware of is Gary and that only happened because i pointed out precedent in a thread.

 

it is my understanding that PPP was created to give an outlet for and to keep politics out of the mainboards. politics is not for the weak of heart, nor mind. just look to our political elite, they can't be civil with one another yet we are expected to be? we are merely a reflection of the country. until it gets better, we won't get better.

 

again, outside of the grievances listed above, while it may not seem like it with this post, i have nothing but the utmost respect for you. 

 

Sorry this is took so long. I don't like replying to long posts on my phone and I hadn't had ample time at my desktop. Plus, I'm getting a little burned out on the subject. However, I promised a response.

 

The biggest thing I can tell is that you is that despite these supposed wrongs, I have never heard from DR regarding this. Not once. Not after his initial suspension. Not after he came back (except for him accusing another member of supporting child abuse), and not after this time. Not a single "hey, you deserve an explanation". I'm thinking if someone can decode the clues on the Declaration of Independence, he can use the contact form listed right on the front page:

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/contact-us/

 

People use it all the time. He has had the ability to respond to me since July 10th. Again, the link is above.

 

I am well aware that I am sitting here amidst a slew of members who peddle conspiracy theories day after day. Thus these baseless charges of being "out to get to people" comes as no surprise. There are 800k posts in here. DR with 55k posts in under 7 years. A 3 year old Qanon topic untouched. There is an existence theorem here. The mere presence of everything you see here is in direct contradiction to your assertions.

 

If there is an aggravation in all of this, it is that despite YEARS of pressure to do away with PPP (because why do we have this divisive entity in a Buffalo Bills Community when the internet has evolved such that better outlets exist for political discussion), I am the one who has ultimately resisted those calls (including resisting my own doubts). Again, the sheer existence of this place contradicts any accusations that I am suppressing ideas and thought that are different than mine. I literally keep this place open BECAUSE of the people here, while I am being accused of being against the people here.  I mean, seriously? 

 

(With that said, global corporations such as Facebook and Twitter are shutting down Qanon stuff. This hasn't gone unnoticed and I battle with my conscience all the time to do the right thing.)

 

I have banned people and usernames based upon what I have seen. I explained what I acted on above. In case you haven't noticed, there has been shockingly thin support regarding what DR actually posted and to who, including hearing nothing from him. Additionally, I made a post about the display names that have been banned and gave the same timeout to the perpetrator that I gave DR. I'm not sure what else you need.

 

I am looking for a way forward that makes sense for everyone. Regardless, I hope people see value and have fun and are entertained by coming ere and taking about the Bills and the NFL. I don't care who you are or what lever you pull, everyone is welcomed to join the community and enjoy what appears to be the start of a something great. We are always here. We have been here since 1996 and this community has been here since 1998. 

 

P.S. I am not a legal entity. The distinction between "you are a child abuser" and "you support child abuse and their abusers" doesn't matter to me in message board world. Neither are appropriate and neither should ever be an issue in a Buffalo Bills community.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

[Foxx]

10 minutes ago, SDS said:

 

Sorry this is took so long. I don't like replying to long posts on my phone and I hadn't had ample time at my desktop. Plus, I'm getting a little burned out on the subject. However, I promised a response.

 

The biggest thing I can tell is that you is that despite these supposed wrongs, I have never heard from DR regarding this. Not once. Not after his initial suspension. Not after he came back (except for him accusing another member of supporting child abuse), and not after this time. Not a single "hey, you deserve an explanation". I'm thinking if someone can decode the clues on the Declaration of Independence, he can use the contact form listed right on the front page:

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/contact-us/

 

People use it all the time. He has had the ability to respond to me since July 10th. Again, the link is above.

 

I am well aware that I am sitting here amidst a slew of members who peddle conspiracy theories day after day. Thus these baseless charges of being "out to get to people" comes as no surprise. There are 800k posts in here. DR with 55k posts in under 7 years. A 3 year old Qanon topic untouched. There is an existence theorem here. The mere presence of everything you see here is in direct contradiction to your assertions.

 

If there is an aggravation in all of this, it is that despite YEARS of pressure to do away with PPP (because why do we have this divisive entity in a Buffalo Bills Community when the internet has evolved such that better outlets exist for political discussion), I am the one who has ultimately resisted those calls (including resisting my own doubts). Again, the sheer existence of this place contradicts any accusations that I am suppressing ideas and thought that are different than mine. I literally keep this place open BECAUSE of the people here, while I am being accused of being against the people here.  I mean, seriously? 

 

(With that said, global corporations such as Facebook and Twitter are shutting down Qanon stuff. This hasn't gone unnoticed and I battle with my conscience all the time to do the right thing.)

 

I have banned people and usernames based upon what I have seen. I explained what I acted on above. In case you haven't noticed, there has been shockingly thin support regarding what DR actually posted and to who, including hearing nothing from him. Additionally, I made a post about the display names that have been banned and gave the same timeout to the perpetrator that I gave DR. I'm not sure what else you need.

 

I am looking for a way forward that makes sense for everyone. Regardless, I hope people see value and have fun and are entertained by coming ere and taking about the Bills and the NFL. I don't care who you are or what lever you pull, everyone is welcomed to join the community and enjoy what appears to be the start of a something great. We are always here. We have been here since 1996 and this community has been here since 1998. 

 

P.S. I am not a legal entity. The distinction between "you are a child abuser" and "you support child abuse and their abusers" doesn't matter to me in message board world. Neither are appropriate and neither should ever be an issue in a Buffalo Bills community.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

thanks for the reply, @SDS, much appreciated. i understand the delay, life often intrudes, i was however, beginning to wonder...

 

you have always struck me as a pretty fair minded guy and the fact that this website is where it is at after a quarter of a century speaks to this fact.  i understand the difficulties one faces (though certainly not to the degree you do), in trying to not only do what one thinks is the right thing but to please all the many different personalities that congregate under your roof. to be sure, never an easy chore and more times than not, can be heart wrenching.

 

i mean that sincerely.

 

having said that, we are going to have to agree to disagree on the actions taken here with regard. first of all, there is no clear line drawn in the sand. what is not acceptable and the degrees of punishment to be meted out are ambiguous at best. to better explain my perspective here, i will use myself as an example. there have been a couple instances where i posted in the 'Off The Wall' sub that were deleted. @Simon sent a PM to let me know, and i am paraphrasing here, that political comments were not allowed and to keep that type of stuff to PPP. it was a verbal warning with no points involved. i had absolutely no problem with that, and said as much in my response to Simon. i expressed that i was sorry and that i had no desire to make his/the moderators job any more difficult than it was. this happened at least twice that my memory serves up ( i can look through PM's to be exact if need be). same warning, same response from me both times. i did so even though i really didn't see where the comments were political but in this world of political correctness, one never really knows what can or could be construed as being political in nature. it was no sweat off my shoulders, after all, it is not my house and i am here at your mercy.

 

when i caught a suspension from you, there was no warning, whatsoever. again, it was in a political thread, on TSW of which contained, imo much worse comments. again, no biggie, i said i probably deserved it. this event happened after @Hapless Bills Fan stated to me, on OTW that due to the nature of current world events that you had instructed there to be a little leeway on the main boards, in response to my comment asking if TSW had become PPP Lite.  however, the personal nature of the reason for the suspension was not taken very well by me. i saw/see absolutely no reason for that. things of that nature should be kept strictly on a business level. so yeah, it pissed me off. along with this came a never expiring warning point. prior to this, i had one warning point from hapless when she first came on as a mod. there is a bit to that story but suffice it to say, i was chastised and had my post edited for posting small font at the bottom of my post. a brief heated discussion followed and when i asked if it was okay to post a larger font, in a larger font, i then received a warning point. i don't think i ever apologized for that exchange due mainly to the fact that i thought it was petty but did let it go. i still use the small font in my posts from time to time and there has been no additional warnings of any sort since then so i chalk it up to perhaps hapless was trying to stake her ground and that because there have been no additional warnings of any sort, maybe somebody said something to her. however, this is all tea leave reading and i have no idea as to what actually happened other than my impression. so, in three years here, 1 prior warning, prior to catching a suspension. again no biggie on the act of the discipline itself but the parameters on behavioral conduct is very ambiguous, at best and is cause for concern, imo.

 

from my understanding of both the suspension and banishment of DR, there were no warnings involved and nothing was stated that a certain behaviour is expected. again, and i may be wrong but, my understanding is that he was suspended for 'starting a callout thread'. his subsequent banishment stemmed from him calling out a peep within a thread. and while the distinction may be minor, there is a distinction and certainly room for ambiguity exists. another area of concern here is the fact that this was done with no real understanding of the dynamics in play. i will not get into all the little intricacies of those dynamics in play, a good many of them are included within the three threads that are dealing with this issue. suffice it to say that while i believe DR could have handled it differently, there were good faith attempts to reason with these people on his behalf before that good faith was kicked to the curb by the other party.  when one isn't around and comes in with the soda straw perspective of, not being around, the potential for misjustice is very high.

 

one final comment...

 

your initial reply to my post was that most of it was wrong. within your reply above, i fail to see where this is the case. it is more of an explanation of the whys and wherefores for actions taken. you can say my opinion is wrong just as i can disagree with your opinion. it's all good.

 

if anything, it is my hope that this is taken with the constructive criticism that it is intended to impart. i believe to to be influenced my the sum of the parts, this should be one part to help going forward.

 

also, I have asked hapless and @Chandler#81 to close the WTF thread and there has been no action on that front, if you would be so kind, could you please close it for me, i would be grateful. thank you.

 

thanks for reading.

[Simon]

17 hours ago, FireChans said:

Self-importance is TBD's middle name. Just ask Simon, ....... And he's STILL a mod lol.

 

 

I don't care what forum you're in, I'm not going to sit idly by while you make stuff up and tell lies about me.

I would suggest you not continue the strategy any further.

[Chandler#81]

@Foxx, I left my full body PPE in the car. Not venturing into this cesspool w/o it.

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I don't care what forum you're in, I'm not going to sit idly by while you make stuff up and tell lies about me.

I would suggest you not continue the strategy any further.

I understand that you disagree with that interpretation of events. I won’t contend that.

 

But this post does raise an interesting point in the greater thread. @SDS do accusations of biased moderation (unfounded or otherwise) in a thread about moderation policy, on a board designated for light moderation, deserve to be threatened with more moderation? My post above was already edited by the mod in question. 

 

On the off chance this post is deleted, despite me being nothing but cordial, remember me!

[shoshin]

Wait what? In the history of PPP, there are 800K posts. In the last 7 years, DR had 55K posts.  
 

That backs up my gut feel but seeing it in numbers is amazing and sad all at once. Hopefully this was his only platform. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by shoshin

[meazza]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

@Foxx, I left my full body PPE in the car. Not venturing into this cesspool w/o it.

Too later, you’re already infected.