What happens if you flip flop Darnold and Allen?

[dpberr]

The draft intelligence said Josh Allen was coachable and Darnold not as much.

 

Lamar Jackson and Patrick Mahomes were also rated high for coachability. Josh Rosen, low coachability rating.
 

That's a key detail. I think with Darnold, what you see is what you will get. Rosen was always destined to have a rough go of it. 

 

Coaching, talent and the willingness to be coached are the three legs of the stool. 

 

 

[Chicken Boo]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Darnold has himself to blame.  He doesnt put the work in during the offseason.  His mechanical issues are still the same issues he has had year in and year out since college.  See Josh actually is working on those every offseason and you can see the mechanical changes take.

 

It also helps to have a good roster, and good coaching.

 

Josh would be awful with the Jets organization.  Most QBs for that matter.

[Mr. WEO]

Arnold Dallen...

[Kwai San]

2 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Gugs, they are housemates at Palmers camp a good portion of the off season so you’re right.  This is a dumb argument as Darnold is learning bad habits from a badly coached and managed team, and needs to go nuclear to get the h%# out of that dumpster fire before it ruins him.  Take whatever they give you to play behind one of the older players.  NO, Indy, TB, or Pitt all have good teams, we’ll coached, lots of talent, and can groom him.  If he sits behind one of these guys that probably will retire after 2021, then he can resurrect himself, learn behind one of the guys who are probably all going to the HOF (even Rivers as many don’t want to agree with that one). albeit not right away.  All of them have coaches, RB’s, pretty good lines, WR’s, and some of these teams have excellent TE’s.  It’s not like behind Wilson at the Hawks or even GB where you don’t know when they move on.

 

Darnold could not do what Allen is doing as Allen is just better, but he’s also been well coached.  I really want Darnold to do well.  That’s with all sincerity.  I actually pity the guy at this point.  His parents must look at Allen and are quietly saying to each other not even to Sam, man if he just went to the Bills, or the Ravens, he’d be a winner, and he probably would be a winner.  I still will take Allen though.  History will show that barring injuries over the next 10 years.

 

I’ve said for awhile I’m cautiously optimistic on Allen.  I’m all in on 17 Red (little Vegas metaphor) now, amd don’t need to see anymore.  He has the team, playing with confidence, and the handcuffs have come off Allen from the coaches.

 

Sam proally goes to bed wishing this could happen.....being traded.  Instead he lives nightmares until at least the end of this season......I agree with you - it would be nice to see him do well.  Beyond obvious it won't happen in this DUMPSTER fire called the Jets....heck even Spags could admit that....well maybe not.

2 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

No. Baker is being hidden behind that run game.

 

For all the yards they racked up on dallas, only like 180 something was passing.

 

 

And not all of it his!!!

[ALLEN1QB]

Allen's girlfriend would be very upset.

[SF Bills Fan]

With our receivers, many QBs will be successful and Darnold would be too. NY is a mess and anyone will fail there right now. I like Darnold and I think he will get a chance somewhere. 

[Saxum]

If you flip flop Allen he lands on his feet.

If you flip flop Darnold he lands on his head and is out for a few weeks.

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

Flip them?

 

2019 - Darnold (like Allen) would have been mostly carried by the defense and cupcake schedule to 9-10 wins.

 

2020 - Darnold is probably 3-1 right now.

 

Now real question is what would Allen being doing with the Jets with same roster.  I would say his athletic ability might have them 1-2 more wins in 2019 and probably 1-3 in 2020 right now.

[bills6969]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

I would rank raw talent, coaching, and surrounding teammate quality as massively more important factors than "being a gamer", "mental makeup", "winning at all costs mentality", "confidence", "ability to inspire teammates", and any other abstract non-issues that sports fans love to talk about.

 

Darnold's last year at USC was mostly a regression, and a lot of folks in the draft business lowered their stock value on him as a result.  On top of that, he was drafted into one of the most dysfunctional franchises in the league right now.

 

The book remains open on him; he will get a shot elsewhere at some point in time, and we still don't know his ceiling.

 

I actually still feel the same on Josh Rosen, another QB from that group who had the most rotten luck/circumstances surrounding his NFL debut.  

Strong disagree.  All of the elite QBs have superb intangibles (Confidence, smarts, gamer, leadership). Obviously, you need to have the physical attributes, athleticism and arm mechanics,  but if you lack the “mental makeup” you will not be an elite QB.

 

I also disagree with your point about QBs getting drafted into dysfunctional organization which results in them not playing well.  I believe if you’re good enough QB it doesn’t matter which team you’re on, you will excel.  Imagine if Mahomes was on the Jets.  Would the Jets stink as they do now? Absolutely not.  They would be a playoff team.  Great QBs make others around them better.  He would make the WRs look a lot better than they actually are, running game would then be better and in general the team would have more confidence.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Interesting premise. Darnold is terrible under pressure and Allen still has some hero ball in him. Darnold with these weapons is probably adequate. He seems more game manager than game breaker like Allen. Allen with no support in NY is probably a turnover machine trying to do too much to win.

[RobbRiddick]

They've been discussing this on one of the Jets forums I stalk  visit and of course a majority of them say Allen would be terrible. I don't buy it. He wouldn't be amazing but he would be VERY entertaining and would be dragging that team kicking and screaming up the field far more than Darnold has.

 

I consider the offense Allen had around him during his rookie year to be way worse than the Jets this year, and Allen never looked as catatonic as Darnold. He had plenty of bad moments but there were a number of games where he looked great and basically willed the team into the endzone. I don't really get that from Darnold. And I'm not a hater of him. I watched that Denver game and was pretty shocked by how lethargic he looked for the most part.

[ghostwriter]

4 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

I don't think Darnold would be as good as Allen is with the Bills, but I think he'd be winning games and he'd have a career.

 

In NY, Allen would not have been given the time needed for development and would be in the same boat Darnold is now, a bust.

I’m leaning towards this.. Darnold would be 2-2 maaaaybe 3-1... Allen would be 0-4.

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, KzooMike said:

When I watch Allen this year and see the fruits of his labor, I can't help but notice just how amazing a job our front office has done in putting him in a position to be successful.  It really makes you wonder the % the QB plays in his success and the % the front office does. With Darnold and Allen you probably have the two most extreme cases in each direction. 

 

Allen is immensely talented and as hard a worker as you could find and by all account Darnold is a very hard worker as well. That said, you often see Allen eating a bag of Cheetos after the snap as those long crossing routes are developing. Our offensive line has been fantastic giving Allen time to read defenses. Then you look at the WR position. The route running on this team is perhaps the best in the NFL. You can't cover Cole Beasley, watching the guy run routes is a thing of beauty. Smoke is the same way just faster. Then Diggs is just the total package. Davis and McKenzie is like icing on icing. 

 

What I love so much about all of it is none of it was done over night. Piece here, piece there. I always thought the front office played a role in QB development. It was just really hard for me to tell how much until I saw how well this regime brought Allen around. The QB still needs to be the right guy and I would never take a shred away from Allen as he has worked so hard to become who he is, but what happens if you flip flop Darnold and Allen? Could Allen make this years Jets team a 8-8 squad? 6-10? Would Darnold have us 4-0? Curious as to what people think.....  

 

Darnold would be better than he is with the Jets but he wouldn't come close to Josh Allen. Meanwhile Josh would revert to hero ball mode every game with the Jets because he'd have no help whatsoever.

[TBBills]

5 hours ago, KzooMike said:

When I watch Allen this year and see the fruits of his labor, I can't help but notice just how amazing a job our front office has done in putting him in a position to be successful.  It really makes you wonder the % the QB plays in his success and the % the front office does. With Darnold and Allen you probably have the two most extreme cases in each direction. 

 

Allen is immensely talented and as hard a worker as you could find and by all account Darnold is a very hard worker as well. That said, you often see Allen eating a bag of Cheetos after the snap as those long crossing routes are developing. Our offensive line has been fantastic giving Allen time to read defenses. Then you look at the WR position. The route running on this team is perhaps the best in the NFL. You can't cover Cole Beasley, watching the guy run routes is a thing of beauty. Smoke is the same way just faster. Then Diggs is just the total package. Davis and McKenzie is like icing on icing. 

 

What I love so much about all of it is none of it was done over night. Piece here, piece there. I always thought the front office played a role in QB development. It was just really hard for me to tell how much until I saw how well this regime brought Allen around. The QB still needs to be the right guy and I would never take a shred away from Allen as he has worked so hard to become who he is, but what happens if you flip flop Darnold and Allen? Could Allen make this years Jets team a 8-8 squad? 6-10? Would Darnold have us 4-0? Curious as to what people think.....  

Sam Darnold had no leadership so I expect he would still suck.

[Golden Goat]

I'd cry like a B word.

[CincyBillsFan]

So this is the new way to knock Allen?  People can't point to his decision making or accuracy or deep throws or 300 yard games or touch so they create bizarre "what if" scenarios?

 

I think it's fair to say that back in 2018 Allen had a much higher upside then Darnold.  He also had a much lower downside.  Now early in their 3rd season, Allen has grown into that upside and Darnold has hovered near his downside.  It's really that simple.

 

And let's quit acting like Allen didn't come into a cluster frack his rookie season in Buffalo.  I love McD & Bean but they did Allen NO favors his first year here.  Both our coach & GM were new to their jobs and while they had a great idea for a culture to implement in Buffalo it was a work in progress in 2018.

 

In 2018 the Bills fielded a terrible offense.  And until they made the brilliant decision to bring an old pro like Anderson and solid backup like Barkely in the Bills brain trust did nothing to help Allen in the QB room.  I mean Peterman & McCarron.  Really?  And don't get me going on the fact that Allen hardly took any first team snaps in training camp or the preseason games yet was starting in week 2.  But in spite of this Allen showed flashes of greatness amidst the offensive rubble of 2018.

 

I saw this topic on one of the Jets boards and the problem is that you can't treat it as a single variable. The presence of Allen on the Jets and Darnold on the Bills in 2018 would have altered everything that followed.  The Bills clearly loved what they saw in 2018 and started building a PASSING offense around Allen that year and continued to build it going into this year.  Who knows what they would have done if Darnold was here? Maybe triple down on defense and the running game.  Ditto for the Jets. 

 

Against some pretty long odds Allen appears to be reaching his very high ceiling.  Back in 2018 a lot of "experts" said that should he do this, however unlikely, he would be the best QB of that draft.  Well he's gone and done it and IMO he is the best QB from that draft.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Freak-O]

We should not underestimate the value of playing in a team where everyone seems happy and appear to get along and pull together. That's the kind of environment where you grow and where you want to stay. I think Josh was happy in Buffalo from the beginning, even though the team was far from as strong as it is today. Darnold is trapped on a crap team under incompetent leadership. It's much harder to give 100% every day in that situation. He's Josh's friend and I hope he finds success somewhere else. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I just mean by NFL standards. By normal human standards every player in the NFL is a freak, even Nate Peterman. But I'm judging him on professional standards. Sorry but if two defenders running at you cause you to stumble and fall over you're not cut out for this league. There is a lot of tape on Darnold this year where he is afraid go throw the ball to an open receiver. Yes the entire team sucks around him but he's part of the problem too. I say that as someone that had him as my top QB in 2018.

 

To be fair to Darnold,

1) there seems to be a problem with the turf in that stadium "catching" cleats and causing injuries

2) at that point, wasn't Darnold shot full of pain killers?  It's possible he couldn't feel his freakin' feet

 

Of course I've seen some of the same tape you have, and Darnold's regression since his rookie season is painful to watch.  I just don't think personal courage or lack thereof has anything to do with it, even by NFL standards.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

20 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

So this is the new way to knock Allen?  People can't point to his decision making or accuracy or deep throws or 300 yard games or touch so they create bizarre "what if" scenarios?

 

I think it's fair to say that back in 2018 Allen had a much higher upside then Darnold.  He also had a much lower downside.  Now early in their 3rd season, Allen has grown into that upside and Darnold has hovered near his downside.  It's really that simple.

 

And let's quit acting like Allen didn't come into a cluster frack his rookie season in Buffalo.  I love McD & Bean but they did Allen NO favors his first year here.  Both our coach & GM were new to their jobs and while they had a great idea for a culture to implement in Buffalo it was a work in progress in 2018.

 

In 2018 the Bills fielded a terrible offense.  And until they made the brilliant decision to bring an old pro like Anderson and solid backup like Barkely in the Bills brain trust did nothing to help Allen in the QB room.  I mean Peterman & McCarron.  Really?  And don't get me going on the fact that Allen hardly took any first team snaps in training camp or the preseason games yet was starting in week 2.  But in spite of this Allen showed flashes of greatness amidst the offensive rubble of 2018.

 

I saw this topic on one of the Jets boards and the problem is that you can't treat it as a single variable. The presence of Allen on the Jets and Darnold on the Bills in 2018 would have altered everything that followed.  The Bills clearly loved what they saw in 2018 and started building a PASSING offense around Allen that year and continued to build it going into this year.  Who knows what they would have done if Darnold was here? Maybe triple down on defense and the running game.  Ditto for the Jets. 

 

Against some pretty long odds Allen appears to be reaching his very high ceiling.  Back in 2018 a lot of "experts" said that should he do this, however unlikely, he would be the best QB of that draft.  Well he's gone and done it and IMO he is the best QB from that draft.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly; like Allen had nothing to do with his development at all.  People quickly forget, while flawed as rookie, he played with a washed up McCoy, Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, and Charles Clay, and still won 5 games.  

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Freak-O said:

We should not underestimate the value of playing in a team where everyone seems happy and appear to get along and pull together.

 

That's true.  But if you watch a few Allen "candid" style interviews and background pieces, you get a pretty rapid picture that's something Allen himself brings with him, just as Fitzpatrick does.   Even in a few minute interview, he finds a couple ways to personally relate and show that he's interested in the interviewer, and he makes them laugh. 

 

I totally underestimated the importance of that kind of "relationship building" IT factor pre-draft in 2018.  Now mind you, it won't get you there without the physical skills.

 

1 hour ago, bills6969 said:

I also disagree with your point about QBs getting drafted into dysfunctional organization which results in them not playing well.  I believe if you’re good enough QB it doesn’t matter which team you’re on, you will excel.  Imagine if Mahomes was on the Jets.  Would the Jets stink as they do now? Absolutely not.  They would be a playoff team.  Great QBs make others around them better.  He would make the WRs look a lot better than they actually are, running game would then be better and in general the team would have more confidence.

 

Try to reconcile that with the notion that football is the ultimate team game, and that it takes 11 guys pulling together to get it done.  Hint: you can't.

 

Would Mahomes on the Jets look better than Darnold?  Sure.  Would the Jets have a few more wins?  Sure.  A playoff team?  You're funny!