What happens if you flip flop Darnold and Allen?

[MAJBobby]

40 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’d venture to say that you don’t have enough first hand knowledge regarding what Darnold does all offseason (and in season) to make this determination.  
 

Could be the case but I don’t think we’ll truly know until we see him in another uniform.  Zero chance Josh would be as good as he is now if he were on the jets.  

What I do see is the EXACT same mechanical issues he has had in college.  Doesnt take a team around him to have improved Mechanics.  His throwing motion is still trash

[Seasons1992]

Dan Patrick talks about this frequently. How where you get drafted matters SO much as to the outcome. Mahomes to another team? Perhaps not the same. But he fits there in Andy's system.

If you think Kyler Murray with the Jets would be anything good, you'd be mistaken. 

 

Josh fits Buffalo perfectly. 

 

[Mat68]

I would argue Perriman and Crowder are not that different from Brown and Beasley.  Allen provided both players career years.  Herndon not much different than Knox.  To say they would be similar careers is not accurate.  Darnold does the same mistakes now that he did his first game at USC.  Allen went from project to elite.  Allen did that.  Not Daboll, not Mcdermott.  

[NewEra]

36 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

No. Baker is being hidden behind that run game.

 

For all the yards they racked up on dallas, only like 180 something was passing.

 

He’s in a spot where he is set up for success.  That is why I included him.  Darnold has ZERO chance to succeed in NY.  Baker has a chance to succeed in Cleveland based on what Cleveland has surrounded him with.  Same with Lamar (although his WRs suck) and JA.  

[TwistofFate]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

I thought he and Josh put in the exact same work in the offseason working with Jordan Palmer.

 

What boggles my mind about Darnold is that he still makes rookie mistakes pretty regularly.  I think a lot of that has to do with being on arguably the worst team in the league, led by the worst HC in the league and Darnold is surrounded by nearly zero talent.  He's trying to make things happen out of desperation.

Darnold and Allen are pretty solid proof of how important great coaching and a solid front office are in Qb development. 

 

Makes me wonder how many Qbs our staff has destroyed over the years...Losman, Manuel, etc. 

[Pokebball]

36 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

I think it would crash. He would of been killed in jersey. 
I’ve believed in years past based on how conservative we were they tried very very hard to not damage Allen’s confidence. Never putting him in positions to fail terribly. Year one if they would of tossed him out there and asked him to throw 40 times a game he might of been picked 25+ times, that hurts any players confidence going forward. Jets basically tell Darnold hey we’re gonna play behind with zero run game and zero pass protection best of luck to you buddy go get us the W. 

I have a different perspective and think otherwise.  Josh was surrounded by some pretty good talent his soph year in Laramie.  He lost most of that talent his junior year, including his offensive line.  it was a rough year for him.  He missed 2 1/2 games due to injury and then came back and played a great bowl game.  He didn't lose an ounce of confidence and character.  But it's OK for us to agree to disagree.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

He does, but then does he take the coaching?  He could b one of those Talented Players that isnt Coachable.  That would be Sam's issue

Gase is terrible. The receivers are terrible. The line is terrible. The backs are terrible. It's an impossible situation.

[Rc2catch]

8 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

I have a different perspective and think otherwise.  Josh was surrounded by some pretty good talent his soph year in Laramie.  He lost most of that talent his junior year, including his offensive line.  it was a rough year for him.  He missed 2 1/2 games due to injury and then came back and played a great bowl game.  He didn't lose an ounce of confidence and character.  But it's OK for us to agree to disagree.

And that my friend is how difference in opinion should be handled. I can discuss football situations with you anytime!!! 

[Don Otreply]

The Bills would not be as good as they are now, and the jests would have a slightly better team, it is really that simple. 

[TigerJ]

I think Darnold has gotten a raw deal by playing in New York, given the turnover in coaching and the changing of offensive schemes.  It is impossible to accurately predict what his career path might have been if he'd been handled properly by the coaches in New York, but it's fairly certain Josh Allen's career would be on a very different trajectory if he'd been handled the same way as Darnold.

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, JerseyBills said:

I think the Jets would be a completely different team because his guys would run through a wall for him.  I said this last year after hearing his teammates genuinely gush about him ,Josh has those intangibles you can't teach and love to have in a franchise QB. 

Just yesterday Beasley said regarding his TD , that Josh would risk it all for us , so I'm going to do it too.

Darnold doesn't have that IT factor,  at all. Doesn't strike me as a guy who makes his teammates better. Kinda fits that California, USC QB narrative of being kinda laid back and not a good leader. Essentially Mark Sanchez 2.0

 

I really think this is true.  From day 1 - Josh has fought and worked with teammates and they all talk about their respect for him.  He will run through a wall - so the least I can do is run with him.  Josh really seems to fit with his teammates and they accepted him and that was huge because they did not have to.  Much like Fitz - Josh seems to have a natural ability to just bring out the best in those around him (both offense and defense).

 

Josh has worked hard each off season and he really seems intent on honing parts of his craft each off season and I believe that work combined with the stability and growth here has allowed him to blossom.

 

Darnold I believe has always been a top dog.  He has just infinite talent and has never had to work hard to be great.  His teammates always played for him, but you do not see that camaraderie.  I also think he is a hard worker, but he has many traits already ingrained because he has been doing this since junior high.  He had specialized camps and practices and everything you could ever want and therefore I think he takes for granted how to break it all down and build himself back up.

 

The last thing is that desire and want to.  Josh has had to work for everything - trying to play college ball - sending thousands of letters trying to get noticed - a desire to get better with limited talent around him.  He worked and fought all along.  Darnold just does not have that - he got the best of everything- training, then scholarship to USC and the talent there.  I think those experiences define each player.

 

Darnold had everything to be great - now he needs coaching and a team to bring back the desire.

Allen was super raw, but worked his butt off to make himself into something and his teammates see that and respond.

 

I don’t feel like Darnold would of thrived here - even with the staff - I see to much Rob Johnson in him and I think the fan base would have been all over him.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

I don't think Darnold has the mentality needed to succeed in the NFL. Yeah Allen has had a better team put around him but he's pushed through a lot of adversity to get here. Darnold is crumbling under the pressure. The play where he sacked himself has nothing to do with Adam Gase, he is just a coward on the field.

 

TBH, and nothing personal against you but I hate that kind of trash talk, especially if you've (like me) never played a down of high-level football.  A coward doesn't stand in the pocket and take those hits, down after down, trying to make things happen.  A coward doesn't put his body on the line and run to try and make things happen when he sees no one to throw to.  A coward doesn't get his shoulder injured, take a pain shot or 3 and come back out in the middle of a series.

 

Sam Darnold is a flawed football player right now - an NFL QB who is struggling to develop on a talent-depleted team with a coach who is coasting on his rep as the OC who fetched Peyton Manning's coffee in 2013-2014 Denver.

 

But he's far from a coward, and he doesn't deserve to have some armchair aficionado naming him thus.

[Freddie's Dead]

I think Darnold is a good QB, but with no OL, no RB, and no WR's, he has ZERO chance to succeed.  If I'm him, I demand a trade after the season if Googly eyes is still the coach.

[H2o]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, and nothing personal against you but I hate that kind of trash talk, especially if you've (like me) never played a down of high-level football.  A coward doesn't stand in the pocket and take those hits, down after down, trying to make things happen.  A coward doesn't put his body on the line and run to try and make things happen when he sees no one to throw to.  A coward doesn't get his shoulder injured, take a pain shot or 3 and come back out in the middle of a series.

 

Sam Darnold is a flawed football player right now - an NFL QB who is struggling to develop on a talent-depleted team with a coach who is coasting on his rep as the OC who fetched Peyton Manning's coffee in 2013-2014 Denver.

 

But he's far from a coward, and he doesn't deserve to have some armchair aficionado naming him thus.

Truthfully Hap, Darnold is the same player right now that I saw at USC his Junior(RS Sophomore) year. He hasn't changed one bit. He'll make some flashy plays and then some "how in the hell did he miss that one" plays. That year was where you saw how he truly operated under any kind of pressure. His first year as the starter had him sitting in a clean pocket for 5 seconds or more. That 2nd year he had to be quicker with his reads and his release. His completion percentage dropped a few points and his turnovers almost doubled. He rattles under pressure. He always has. Though the Jets have done him no favors with coaching, or with the personnel around him, that's who he has always been on the field. He's clearly got talent, but the rest has always been there as well. 

[brianthomas]

I think when Darnold was drafted, he was closer to his ceiling than Allen was. Allen was more raw & could be teached from the ground up. Whereas Darnold already had years of his mechanics being the way they were, and would need to unlearn bad habits to succeed in the NFL. Imo thats much harder for a qb to do, then to just build up techniques that we saw with Allen. I think this played an impact on both. Perhaps Darnold would've been better here than how he's been on the Jets, just from being in a less dysfunctional situation.

But I still would prefer Allen

[Jumpsuit Jim]

I remember a bunch of years ago, Chris Carter said that pretty much every player in the NFL is a product of their system. He said he was just “ok” until the Vikings went more West Coast style and he moved to more of a slot receiver which led to success. He also said that the only player he had ever seen who could have been a success in any system was Dan Marino. 
 

Based on that premise, which I absolutely agree with, Allen would be better on the Jets than Darnold, but not as good as he is now. Likewise, Darnold would be better on the Bills than he is on the Jets, but not as good as Allen. 
 

And I don’t think Brady becomes Brady if he wasn’t picked by the Pats. 

[Nextmanup]

2 hours ago, bills6969 said:

Darnold has a good arm but lacks the mental make-up that Allen has.  That’s what makes Allen so good.  Allen is a gamer,  has a win at all costs mentality.  He also oozes confidence which inspires the rest of the team.  Darnold had better mechanics coming out of college,  but Allen has made vast improvements to his throwing abilities and seems to see the field a lot better.

I would rank raw talent, coaching, and surrounding teammate quality as massively more important factors than "being a gamer", "mental makeup", "winning at all costs mentality", "confidence", "ability to inspire teammates", and any other abstract non-issues that sports fans love to talk about.

 

Darnold's last year at USC was mostly a regression, and a lot of folks in the draft business lowered their stock value on him as a result.  On top of that, he was drafted into one of the most dysfunctional franchises in the league right now.

 

The book remains open on him; he will get a shot elsewhere at some point in time, and we still don't know his ceiling.

 

I actually still feel the same on Josh Rosen, another QB from that group who had the most rotten luck/circumstances surrounding his NFL debut.  

[HappyDays]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

A coward doesn't stand in the pocket and take those hits, down after down, trying to make things happen.  A coward doesn't put his body on the line and run to try and make things happen when he sees no one to throw to.  A coward doesn't get his shoulder injured, take a pain shot or 3 and come back out in the middle of a series.

 

I just mean by NFL standards. By normal human standards every player in the NFL is a freak, even Nate Peterman. But I'm judging him on professional standards. Sorry but if two defenders running at you cause you to stumble and fall over you're not cut out for this league. There is a lot of tape on Darnold this year where he is afraid go throw the ball to an open receiver. Yes the entire team sucks around him but he's part of the problem too. I say that as someone that had him as my top QB in 2018.

[947]

I think Darnold will have somewhat of a resurrection with another team, assuming he makes it out of NY alive. If the Jets get a top-2 pick & can take Lawrence or Fields, they'll take a 2nd round pick for Darnold from the Colts/Bears/Raiders & run. Darnold could pull a Tannehill with a better organization.

[benderbender]

one thing is for sure, New Jersey would be short one hell of a lego fireman.