Can someone explain why Browns catch wasn’t a TD?

[Rochesterfan]

6 hours ago, MPT said:

 

So every toe tap catch in the end zone is actually an incomplete pass because they didn't complete the catch until they fell out of bounds? That's not how it works, but that's how they treated this play. The rules aren't as convoluted as people make them out to be; referees just screw them up sometimes. And sometimes, when a team is really lucky, they screw them up three weeks in a row.

 

The toe tap catch in the end zone would be incomplete if they ruled that after the toe tap as he is falling to the ground he bobbled the ball and then after regaining possession his feet were not in the end zone - which is essentially what happened on the Will Fuller TD at the end of the Houston game.

 

Will got both feet down in the end zone and as he fell to the ground with control - the ball hit the ground and moved (showing he had “lost” complete control) and therefore it was incomplete.

 

No go back to the Brown TD.  The ref ruled that he bobbled the ball and regained full control with a knee down in bounds, but the full control was not deemed to have occurred until the ball was just outside the goal line.  It think it is total BS as it is clear he has control and the ball has broken the plane.  The problem is that they have now screwed up replay so bad because they are no longer using logic - they are looking for absolute unquestionably proof - which is a big burden.  Logically - he catches the ball and controls it easily while still across the line, but the burden of proof is at what exact moment does he possess it.  That is difficult and although it seems logical to me that possession was obtained with the ball across the goal line - they ruled that since from every view it is impossible to determine the exact possession point - they stay with the call on the field.

 

It was the same twisted lack of logic on the Int review.  The refs determined that Kroft did not have full control and therefore even though he is on the ground with the ball as it bobbles slightly it is still free.  I do not know how they determined the DB had possession, but because they did and they ruled he never had full possession - it became impossible to overturn.  There was no logic used that Kroft caught the and landed on the ground while being touched and therefore the play was over because the on field refs thought there was movement (and there was slight movement) and they made an illogical call.

 

Then you get the illogical call in the Dolphins game where there was the long catch on Tre’ down to the 1 yard line where the receiver lunges fo the ball gets 2 feet down as he is falling out of bounds and when the ball hits the ground it bounces away - logically it should have been incomplete, but the Refs ruled he had possession 2 feet and a football move tucking the ball and therefore at that moment it was a completed pass and therefore he did not have to maintain control to the ground.

 

There is no logic and the words used matter because that dictates the burden of proof - using things like a football move makes it a catch at that point, or possession was not stablished makes it a different burden of proof.  The issue I have is there is no logic used - replays are just a mess as seen by the number of disagreements between th over the air refs and the replay team.

[Coach Tuesday]

Obviously refs should err on the side of calling touchdowns in close cases since there is automatic review of scoring plays.  By calling no TD they forced McD to burn a challenge.  

[machine gun kelly]

They must have thought he didn’t have complete control of the ball as he was going down.  I thought it was a TD, but then I don’t wear a zebra outfit.

[Rochesterfan]

29 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

They must have thought he didn’t have complete control of the ball as he was going down.  I thought it was a TD, but then I don’t wear a zebra outfit.

 

Yep and the Ref was in a terrible position because he was trying to avoid getting run over - so he is outside and back by the 4 yard line and moving backwards - with no view of the ball.  Normally he would get help from another ref on the team, but these guys are not groups that work together - so he was left alone to make a decision.

 

I understand what he saw - and I think his poor positioning made it hard to determine the goal line and the possession point, but that is where replay should logically help, but the new rules for this year - the need for absolute proof makes it tough.  
 

The off season changes to replay now make it way harder to overturn calls because logic isn’t used in making the play.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Rochesterfan

[Not at the table Karlos]

9 hours ago, StHustle said:

 

Yeah that last block in the back they called on the Raiders was super weak.

Lightly brushed against the defenders jersey and a penalty but a play or two after that the raiders center has an actual block in the back right in front of the ref and no call. The refs are wildly inconsistent and they need to start getting fined. 

[ehfeuh57]

9 hours ago, NoSaint said:

you have to complete the catch and when going to the ground that includes landing. 
 

we go through a few of these around the league annually and it’s always the same answer.

but you have to complete the fall. If you bobble going to the ground on the toe tap it’s incomplete. In this case falling back into the field of play he didn’t complete it until out of the end zone. It’s a tough spot and was a close call. 

 

Your right and so very wrong at the same time

 

You have to complete the catch, Sure.

 

But they still always give you the furthest possible point down the field as it pertains to "forward progress" starting with when you begin your catch process in every other scenario up until that very catch.  As long as you are controlling the ball and he had control the whole time. remember there can be slight movement of the ball all the while the receiver can maintain possession.

 

And of course the made up new ruling always seems to happen when its against a Buffalo team.

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by DrDare

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The toe tap catch in the end zone would be incomplete if they ruled that after the toe tap as he is falling to the ground he bobbled the ball and then after regaining possession his feet were not in the end zone - which is essentially what happened on the Will Fuller TD at the end of the Houston game.

 

Will got both feet down in the end zone and as he fell to the ground with control - the ball hit the ground and moved (showing he had “lost” complete control) and therefore it was incomplete.

 

No go back to the Brown TD.  The ref ruled that he bobbled the ball and regained full control with a knee down in bounds, but the full control was not deemed to have occurred until the ball was just outside the goal line.  It think it is total BS as it is clear he has control and the ball has broken the plane.  The problem is that they have now screwed up replay so bad because they are no longer using logic - they are looking for absolute unquestionably proof - which is a big burden.  Logically - he catches the ball and controls it easily while still across the line, but the burden of proof is at what exact moment does he possess it.  That is difficult and although it seems logical to me that possession was obtained with the ball across the goal line - they ruled that since from every view it is impossible to determine the exact possession point - they stay with the call on the field.

 

It was the same twisted lack of logic on the Int review.  The refs determined that Kroft did not have full control and therefore even though he is on the ground with the ball as it bobbles slightly it is still free.  I do not know how they determined the DB had possession, but because they did and they ruled he never had full possession - it became impossible to overturn.  There was no logic used that Kroft caught the and landed on the ground while being touched and therefore the play was over because the on field refs thought there was movement (and there was slight movement) and they made an illogical call.

 

Then you get the illogical call in the Dolphins game where there was the long catch on Tre’ down to the 1 yard line where the receiver lunges fo the ball gets 2 feet down as he is falling out of bounds and when the ball hits the ground it bounces away - logically it should have been incomplete, but the Refs ruled he had possession 2 feet and a football move tucking the ball and therefore at that moment it was a completed pass and therefore he did not have to maintain control to the ground.

 

There is no logic and the words used matter because that dictates the burden of proof - using things like a football move makes it a catch at that point, or possession was not stablished makes it a different burden of proof.  The issue I have is there is no logic used - replays are just a mess as seen by the number of disagreements between th over the air refs and the replay team.

I think Marv was more succinct when he said:

 

Overofficious jerk

[Gugny]

12 hours ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

He clearly had possession with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line. 

 

I, personally, thought it was a TD.  But it was too close to overturn.  Had they called it a TD, it would have stood.  They called it incomplete and it stood.  The ref didn't say it was "confirmed," which indicates it was simply too close to change the call.

[Doc]

7 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

This is the most annoying part. If they were going to somehow call that short, the ball needed to be placed literally with the nose all-but touching the goal line.

 

Allen should be sitting at 13 TD, 0 INT right now.

The ball was actually placed a little less than half a yard away from the goal line.

[chaccof]

12 hours ago, nkreed said:

You are 100% correct of the leading edge (the one closest to the 1 yd line) is the determining factor.  

 

I was just trying to think like a ref in that situation. I wanted to try and figure out a reason for him calling Brown down at the one.

When you figure it out please let us know!   🙂 That play was a real headscratcher.  

[chaccof]

13 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

It was a clear TD on the first look and on the replay which of course means that it wasn't called a TD on the first look by the goal line official and then not not called a TD by the replay refs in NYC because its the NFL! The Carr fumble was another mystifying call. Clearly it was a fumble. I think the officials tried to squirm out of that one by saying they had blown the whistle before the fumble which if true is just another incompetent call.  Officials also missed a blow to the head on Josh on that play where he hurt his shoulder. Just another day of mediocrity in NFL officiating. Its nice that this years Bills can overcome it. 

When I saw the replay of the Carr play I actually thought it appeared to be an incomplete forward pass, albeit a very weak attempt at a shovel pass.  But then when I heard the ref say that forward progress was stopped I was really confused.  

[wjag]

Gene Steratore called it a TD.  If he doesn't know, how are we as fans supposed to know?

[DrDawkinstein]

Because NFL's NY office hates us. That is the only reason. Same for the non-INT last week.

 

It was a Touchdown.