Why is everyone a draft expert????

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

 

First, telling what Romani, Foxworth and Keyshawn DIDN'T say does absolutely nothing for your argument. What DID they say? Let's hear exact words. 

 

Bill Simmons and Cousin Sal were "Meh"? Well, that's clear as mud. What did they say? 

 

You said:

 

 

... and yet so far you've produced exactly one. 

 

Let's hear the specifics. If there are "many" it ought to be easy to find ten, a fairly small number. But let's hear the specifics of what they say. 

 

Being "meh" about something unspecific someone said isn't "holding onto the old narrative." Should be easy to find ten if there are "many" out there.

Not hard to find. They start talking about Allen and the Bills around 5:35

 

 

It's not at all strange to think that people are invested in their predictions about Allen and can't come off their bad takes. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

Actually that was not the point of the thread. 

 

It was that some people made up their mind about Josh before he played a game in the NFL, much based on College, which most probably never watched him play a game.

 

I said all I cared was the Bills picked him 7th, throw him in, hopefully coach him properly & let's see what he is.   

 

The people still not sold on him are those who decided based on their readings of him prior to the NFL that he was a stretch at #7 and inaccurate. 

 

I have watched every game as a Bill & looked at the cup half full & blamed much on a lousy line, bad to middling receiving corp, way too many dropped passes & a coach who  would seemed to muzzle the offense. 

 

So who are these still not sold people of whom you speak? Because when @Thurman#1 asked you it appeared you were struggling to come up with names?

[Chandler#81]

This isn’t going well @Billsfan1972. Perhaps consider shutting it down.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Not hard to find. They start talking about Allen and the Bills around 5:35

 

 

It's not at all strange to think that people are invested in their predictions about Allen and can't come off their bad takes. 

 

Thanks to @GoBills808 for at least answering the question because that is someone with a bad take who can't get over their draft opinion. I don't know who it is I don't watch ESPN but it is someone with a bad take who is refusing to accept the evidence in front of him. 

 

EDIT: I still think it is way outnumbered by the people saying positive things about the Bills and Allen mind you. Maybe it is an ESPN thing, I dunno. I am oblivious to what ESPN says because I don't watch it. 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Thurman#1]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Not hard to find. They start talking about Allen and the Bills around 5:35

 

 

It's not at all strange to think that people are invested in their predictions about Allen and can't come off their bad takes. 

 

 

So, the guy on the right (Dominique someone?) says, "he turned out to be an OK, above average quarterback." IMO that's still underestimating him, but is that what people said when he was drafted? He absolutely has come off his old take. I don't think he is willing to see all the upside that appears to be there, but his old take was absolutely NOT that Josh Allen was an "OK above average quarterback." He says, "He is much better than I thought he was going to be at the draft."

 

So while I think he's still missing out, he's absolutely not stuck on his old take. He's been forced to upgrade it. The guy in the middle makes it clear he sees that in the last fourteen games he's been much much better, though he admits he had called him terrible in the past.

 

The guy on the left cracked me up, "He's exactly the same except that he has improved doing some things." Um, what? Yeah, OK, dude.

 

So, I think it's fair enough that you can count the guy on the left. The guy on the right appears to have changed. But OK. Let me be kind and give you both of them.

 

That's three people. I asked for ten. If there really are "many," it'll be easy to find ten.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

So, the guy on the right (Dominique someone?) says, "he turned out to be an OK, above average quarterback." IMO that's still underestimating him, but is that what people said when he was drafted? He absolutely has come off his old take. I don't think he is willing to see all the upside that appears to be there, but his old take was absolutely NOT that Josh Allen was an "OK above average quarterback." He says, "He is much better than I thought he was going to be at the draft."

 

So while I think he's still missing out, he's absolutely not stuck on his old take. He's been forced to upgrade it. The guy in the middle makes it clear he sees that in the last fourteen games he's been much much better, though he admits he had called him terrible in the past.

 

The guy on the left cracked me up, "He's exactly the same except that he has improved doing some things." Um, what? Yeah, OK, dude.

 

So, I think it's fair enough that you can count the guy on the left. The guy on the right appears to have changed. But OK. Let me be kind and give you both of them.

 

That's three people. I asked for ten. If there really are "many," it'll be easy to find ten.

 

Yea the guy in the middle definitely does not count. He says positive stuff and admits he didn't like him but he is being forced to come around. 

[Thurman#1]

28 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Actually that was not the point of the thread. 

 

It was that some people made up their mind about Josh before he played a game in the NFL, much based on College, which most probably never watched him play a game.

 

 

 

Well, if your main point was that there are three people out there who still don't like Allen and were holding on to bad takes .... fair enough. You're on the internet here. You could find three people to say that San Francisco was destroyed by an atomic bomb dropped by the Russians in the '60s and that what we see today is a clever simulacrum constructed by aliens from Alpha Centauri.

 

Of course there are a few nutbags out there. I mean, look how many wackjobs are saying that COVID is not real and that masks don't help. I'd expect three bizarros on pretty much any issue you could cite. You shouldn't have said there were "many" if you didn't have anything to back that up with but two crackpots and an organization that now has him as ... what did you say, Gunner, 8th in the league?

Edited September 29, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Billsfan1972]

27 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Not hard to find. They start talking about Allen and the Bills around 5:35

 

 

It's not at all strange to think that people are invested in their predictions about Allen and can't come off their bad takes. 

I think this clip said it all......  Dan saying how hard they have been on him, again trashing the PI call and Bomani calling the Bogus Int a bad decision (because no one has ever done that), pointing out Donald's strip sack where he facemasked & Horse collared Josh and violently threw him down & insinuated that Allen was the reason they lost the lead.... 

 

Nope no one is questioning him.  

 

Oh & Dan pulled out the stat that over his last 14 games 33 TD (Passing & Running) vs. 3 Ints...... Great stat!!!!

 

Oh & PFF through 3 weeks has him behind Rivers & Brady......  Ha ha ha   

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Well, if your main point was that there are three people out there who still don't like Allen and were holding on to bad takes .... fair enough. You're on the internet here. You could find three people to say that San Francisco was destroyed by an atomic bomb dropped by the Russians in the '60s and that what we see today is a clever simulacrum constructed by aliens from Alpha Centauri.

 

Of course there are a few nutbags out there. I mean, look how many wackjobs are saying that COVID is not real and that masks don't help.

I think the point is that reasonable people (I include myself) can successfully argue that there exist an inordinate amount of paid professionals who, in any other comparable situation as proven in the past, would be praising to the heavens a young quarterback putting up the kind of numbers Allen is through three games right now. Now the level of accolades I personally don't very much care about, but the consternation (and it's there and easy to find) is indicative of the whole 'inaccurate big arm prospect' and imo wholly unprecedented. Usually these guys love trying to find the next great young QB.

 

This is the guy who runs Football Outsiders and once called Allen a 'parody of an NFL quarterback prospect'-

 

 

It's just a weird way to frame his season thus far...the article grudgingly ends up comparing him to Fitzpatrick. If you think that's a fair take then so be it.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

I think the point is that reasonable people (I include myself) can successfully argue that there exist an inordinate amount of paid professionals who, in any other comparable situation as proven in the past, would be praising to the heavens a young quarterback putting up the kind of numbers Allen is through three games right now. Now the level of accolades I personally don't very much care about, but the consternation (and it's there and easy to find) is indicative of the whole 'inaccurate big arm prospect' and imo wholly unprecedented. Usually these guys love trying to find the next great young QB.

 

This is the guy who runs Football Outsiders and once called Allen a 'parody of an NFL quarterback prospect'-

 

 

It's just a weird way to frame his season thus far...the article grudgingly ends up comparing him to Fitzpatrick. If you think that's a fair take then so be it.

 

 

Dude, your last sentence says an awful lot more about your than it does about the guy who wrote the article, Schatz.

 

That article is wildly, overwhelmingly positive about Josh Allen. It says he is kicking butt this year and that based on their historical data, Allen isn't likely to fade away. He says that out of the 18 QBs who had the 18 best two game starts since 2009, nearly all had excellent years, thirteen of the teams won a dozen or more games. It does say bad things about Carson Wentz. But not about Josh Allen.

 

And it was written after the Miami game, when we'd played two fairly weak teams, before we played L.A. and Josh did so well.

 

Sorry, Schatz isn't even slightly negative here. He does say that in the past they'd been wildly negative. But makes it very clear he's not saying that anymore. In fact he says that history says that most guys with starts like this have terrific seasons, and you can't help but notice that his list of 18 QBs is filled mostly with the best in football.

 

So, when you say, "there exist an inordinate amount of paid professionals," ... if by that you mean the two airheads from that video above (Bomani and Dominique or whoever they are) and PFF which has put him as the 6th best passing QB and the 8th best overall (including the three fumbles in his running performance) ... then yeah inordinate for you.

 

But since the word "inordinate" means unusually or disproportionately large, you will likely be the only person who thinks two guys out of the entire internet is "inordinate." Well, you and maybe the OP.

 

I'm off to bed.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Thurman#1

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Dude, your last sentence says an awful lot more about your than it does about the guy who wrote the article, Schatz.

 

That article is wildly, overwhelmingly positive about Josh Allen. It says he is kicking butt this year and that based on their historical data, Allen isn't likely to fade away. He says that out of the 18 QBs who had the 18 best two game starts since 2009, nearly all had excellent years, thirteen of the teams won a dozen or more games. It does say bad things about Carson Wentz. But not about Josh Allen.

 

And it was written after the Miami game, when we'd played two fairly weak teams, before we played L.A. and Josh did so well.

 

Sorry, Schatz isn't even slightly negative here.

 

So, when you say, "there exist an inordinate amount of paid professionals," ... if by that you mean the two airheads from that video above (Bomani and Dominique or whoever) and PFF which has put him as the 6th best passing QB and the 8th best overall (including the three fumbles in his running performance) ... then yeah inordinate for you.

 

But since the word "inordinate" means unusually or disproportionately large, you will likely be the only person who thinks two guys out of the entire internet is "inordinate." Well, you and maybe the OP.

 

What it actually says is this: '...So no, the Bills' berth in the playoffs this year is not etched in stone, especially not with the Patriots showing they're not going anywhere anytime soon. But Allen likely isn't going anywhere either. The worst veteran on this list is Fitzpatrick, a member in good standing of the NFL's middle class of starting quarterbacks. Truly bad passers simply don't play like Allen has in the past two weeks.'  

 

If you're incapable of discussing this without bringing whatever bias you think I may have into the discussion, we can leave it here. If not, we can discuss how 'not truly bad passer' translates into 'wildly, overwhelmingly positive'

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Dude, your last sentence says an awful lot more about your than it does about the guy who wrote the article, Schatz.

 

That article is wildly, overwhelmingly positive about Josh Allen. It says he is kicking butt this year and that based on their historical data, Allen isn't likely to fade away. He says that out of the 18 QBs who had the 18 best two game starts since 2009, nearly all had excellent years, thirteen of the teams won a dozen or more games. It does say bad things about Carson Wentz. But not about Josh Allen.

 

And it was written after the Miami game, when we'd played two fairly weak teams, before we played L.A. and Josh did so well.

 

Sorry, Schatz isn't even slightly negative here, before the Rams game.

 

So, when you say, "there exist an inordinate amount of paid professionals," ... if by that you mean the two airheads from that video above (Bomani and Dominique or whoever they are) and PFF which has put him as the 6th best passing QB and the 8th best overall (including the three fumbles in his running performance) ... then yeah inordinate for you.

 

But since the word "inordinate" means unusually or disproportionately large, you will likely be the only person who thinks two guys out of the entire internet is "inordinate." Well, you and maybe the OP.

Again I have posted many who at best begrudgingly are impressed with Allen's 3 games, but like Keyshawn laughed/scoffed at MVP talk (prefaced that it is only 3 weeks). 

 

I gave examples and am not going to scour the internet, but many still are convinced that this is a three week anomaly.  

 

I was as per the thread suggesting that some just have extrapolated scouting reports from college (without ever watching him) and formed biases.

 

Has Mike Lombardi said anything (a huge detractor too) as I googled him and found nothing. 

[Jauronimo]

What is the point of this thread? 

 

Should no one have an opinion on draft prospects?  Should a players entire body of work not be fair game for scrutiny?  Is the point that we should just all watch and have as few opinions as possible?  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

What is the point of this thread? 

 

Should no one have an opinion on draft prospects?  Should a players entire body of work not be fair game for scrutiny?  Is the point that we should just all watch and have as few opinions as possible?  

I could do with fewer opinions to tell you the truth

[Thurman#1]

 

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

What it actually says is this: '...So no, the Bills' berth in the playoffs this year is not etched in stone, especially not with the Patriots showing they're not going anywhere anytime soon. But Allen likely isn't going anywhere either. The worst veteran on this list is Fitzpatrick, a member in good standing of the NFL's middle class of starting quarterbacks. Truly bad passers simply don't play like Allen has in the past two weeks.'  

 

If you're incapable of discussing this without bringing whatever bias you think I may have into the discussion, we can leave it here. If not, we can discuss how 'not truly bad passer' translates into 'wildly, overwhelmingly positive'

 

 

Did you notice that the phrase "not truly bad passer" is proceeded by a negative? He's saying that Wentz is playing like a truly bad passer. And that nobody should be able to say that Allen is.

 

What part of this is the slightest bit negative?

 

The part where he says that like the Patriots, Allen isn't going away? You do get that that's a very positive thing to say, right?

 

Or the part where after two games he says he's not willing to say the Bills playoff spot is etched in stone? After two games, that's very reasonable, but again, he is saying that of the short list of 18 who started two games that well (guys like Russell Wilson, Carson Palmer, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers and Mahomes) a huge majority of them have gone to the playoffs, but not all, so you can't write it in stone.

 

Again, this is a wildly positive look at Allen. And again, it came before the Rams game, when they'd played two pretty bad defenses. Yet he was saying that Allen looked like he wasn't going away anytime soon even though in the past they'd been extremely negative on him.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Did you notice that the phrase "not truly bad passer" is proceeded by a negative? He's saying that Wentz is playing like a truly bad passer. And that nobody should be able to say that Allen is.

 

What part of this is the slightest bit negative?

 

The part where he says that like the Patriots, Allen isn't going away? You do get that that's a very positive thing to say, right?

 

Or the part where after two games he says he's not willing to say the Bills playoff spot is etched in stone? After two games, that's very reasonable, but again, he is saying that of the short list of 18 who started two games that well (guys like Russell Wilson, Carson Palmer, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers and Mahomes) a huge majority of them have gone to the playoffs, but not all, so you can't write it in stone.

 

Again, this is a wildly positive look at Allen. And again, it came before the Rams game, when they'd played two pretty bad defenses. Yet he was saying that Allen looked like he wasn't going away anytime soon even though in the past they'd been extremely negative on him.

I guess I don't see 'not a truly bad passer' as wildly positive, more damning w faint praise.  And again, with all of those examples listed, Schatz chose to use Fitz as his main comp.

 

Regardless...I don't care personally if people aren't singing his praises, I think it's odd he hasn't garnered praise similar to that of comparable achievements by young QBs (of which there aren't many through three weeks)

[Billsfan1972]

8 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

What is the point of this thread? 

 

Should no one have an opinion on draft prospects?  Should a players entire body of work not be fair game for scrutiny?  Is the point that we should just all watch and have as few opinions as possible?  

Read the OP......  I explained that I thought the vast majority never saw Josh in College and yes are still writing about him as if they have followed him since Pee Wee.....

 

I contend they did not, read other's scouting reports and still hold him to those reports in to his third year.

 

If the scouting report is that has was an accurate passer, they would have looked at commented on all his great throws the first two seasons (and would have acknowledged undersized receivers, a bad line & many dropped balls).  Because they said he was inaccurate, they focus on bad passes and the like.

[Thurman#1]

19 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again I have posted many who at best begrudgingly are impressed with Allen's 3 games, but like Keyshawn laughed/scoffed at MVP talk (prefaced that it is only 3 weeks). 

 

I gave examples and am not going to scour the internet, but many still are convinced that this is a three week anomaly.  

 

I was as per the thread suggesting that some just have extrapolated scouting reports from college (without ever watching him) and formed biases.

 

Has Mike Lombardi said anything (a huge detractor too) as I googled him and found nothing. 

 

 

 

You're cracking me up here. So now scoffing at MVP talk, prefaced by the fact that it's only talk, is somehow a way of clinging to old narratives? Puh-leeze!!

 

And yeah, the old "I'm not going to scour the internet" bit. The last refuge of a man without the slightest bit of evidence. If "many," (you said it again, though it's getting kind of sad) people had said it, you wouldn't have to "scour the internet." It would have been posted repeatedly on these forums by other people with their panties in a bunch the way the PFF stuff and the other video above were posted and referenced again and again. You could just copy them over here. If it were there, it wouldn't be tough to find. Problem for your argument is it's not there.

 

You did post names. You didn't post their words. Not that I expect you to. Because at this point we both know there's nothing there.

 

Two people say bad things and somehow to you folks, that's "many."

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

You're cracking me up here. So now scoffing at MVP talk, prefaced by the fact that it's only talk, is somehow a way of clinging to old narratives? Puh-leeze!!

 

And yeah, the old "I'm not going to scour the internet" bit. The last refuge of a man without the slightest bit of evidence. If "many," (you said it again, though it's getting kind of sad) people had said it, you wouldn't have to "scour the internet." It would have been posted repeatedly on these forums by other people with their panties in a bunch the way the PFF stuff and the other video above were posted and referenced again and again. You could just copy them over here. If it were there, it wouldn't be tough to find. Problem for your argument is it's not there.

 

You did post names. You didn't post their words. Not that I expect you to. Because at this point we both know there's nothing there.

 

Two people say bad things and somehow to you folks, that's "many."

You mean like the 2 minute Highly Questionable Clip where they doubled down on the Allen hate and Dan tried to praise him without saying flat out "I was wrong"? 

 

How about you scour the internet?  I'm done with you as you don't even know what you're saying.

[Thurman#1]

33 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I guess I don't see 'not a truly bad passer' as wildly positive, more damning w faint praise.  And again, with all of those examples listed, Schatz chose to use Fitz as his main comp.

 

Regardless...I don't care personally if people aren't singing his praises, I think it's odd he hasn't garnered praise similar to that of comparable achievements by young QBs (of which there aren't many through three weeks)

 

 

 

Again, the phrase "bad passer" is pointed towards Wentz, who he excoriates for two paragraphs. I'll put it all up, in context below, for those of you who haven't read this very positive look at Allen yet.

 

And no, Fits is absolutely NOT his main comp here. He's there because he first mentions that out of the list of 18 most had tremendous success over the course of the season. It wouldn't be fair to just leave at that point. It makes sense to also look at what happened to the four who had the least success. And that list of four includes Aaron Rodgers, Dak Prescott and Fitzy twice. But at no point does he "compare" Fitz to Josh. He only lists those four years (out of 18) where teams ended up with less than 10 wins, in chronological order, which put Dak closest to Allen on the page, but he doesn't compare any of those four to Allen. He's only looking at the list of 18 and what happened to each.

 

He's literally saying that truly bad QBs don't play the way Allen has - that only 18 people ever have - and that the absolute worst of those people was Fitz. But most of the people were folks like Mahomes, Peyton, Brady, Carson Palmer, Brees, Rodgers, etc. He's not saying Josh equates to Fitz. He's saying that Allen is now on that list and that that is one very good list.

 

 

 

Here's the continuation, three paragraphs in a row, but put it all in context. There are two more paragraphs eveiscerating Wentz at the end but I left them off.  It's quite clear that he's using Wentz as his bad example and Allen as the opposite. Which is what it says in the tweet:  "Buffalo's Josh Allen has been stunningly good this season. Philadelphia's Carson Wentz has been shockingly bad. We put their ..."

 

Here it is in context:

 

 

 

"So no, the Bills' berth in the playoffs this year is not etched in stone, especially not with the Patriots showing they're not going anywhere anytime soon. But Allen likely isn't going anywhere either. The worst veteran on this list is Fitzpatrick, a member in good standing of the NFL's middle class of starting quarterbacks. Truly bad passers simply don't play like Allen has in the past two weeks.

 

"Instead, they play more like Carson Wentz. Wentz, like Allen, played college football at a small school, North Dakota State. Unlike Allen, he had great numbers in college, and our QBase projections were cautiously optimistic. Wentz's career got off to a fine start -- he ranked 27th in DYAR as a rookie, then eighth in 2017 despite missing the final three games of the season. He also missed the postseason, and if you're reading this, you know the Eagles went on to win the Super Bowl without him. Ever since, Wentz's career has been on a steady, declining slope. He ranked 14th in DYAR in 2018 (in part because he missed five games) and 17th in 2019. His DVOA ranks in those seasons followed a similar pattern, moving from 27th as a rookie to sixth, to 13th, to 20th last year.

 

"So far in 2020, Wentz has been worse than ever. He leads the NFL with four interceptions. He also leads the NFL with eight sacks (tied with Houston's Deshaun Watson). As our quarterbacks page shows, he is last in the league in DVOA, QBR, and passing DYAR. He's also last with a combined -337 passing and rushing DYAR. In the last 12 years of Quick Reads data, no quarterback has been worse after Week 2."

 

 

 

The article is extremely positive, and there are plenty more out there. You see MVP and Allen in the same sentence with fair frequency. People are being extremely positive on Allen, and for good reason.