The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[KD in CA]

23 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Bills Fans seem unusually threatened by the success/hype of Jackson.

 

probably wouldn’t be as intense Had he been drafted in a “different” draft class and not in the one with Josh.

 

that in itself I see is producing a certain response from the fans.

 

I think Bills fans have an aversion in general to over hyped players, not just this one in particular.

 

Jackson has done much better than I expected overall, but I would agree with those that say the jury is still out.  Yes, he's going to be very effective against the teams that can't contain his running. Yes, he's playing for a very well run organization so will win a lot of games and be a fixture in the playoffs.  But to me he's still in the Vick/V Young/Tyrod category (clearly w/ Vick at the high end of that list);  he has not yet proven he belongs in the category of guys that can take you down the field with their arm when necessary.

 

To me, the real question people should ask themselves is where they would pick him in a QB redraft of the entire league?  Obviously not ahead of Mahomes or Wilson.  But even if we ignore the old guys, ahead of Allen?  Watson? Prescott?  Murray?  Burrow?   

[TheElectricCompany]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

My point was, you stated "There's no precedent for elite MVP QBs regressing to average, especially 22 year olds. "  My point is, there is plenty of precedent for MVP QB regressing to the NFL average the year following their award.  Example: Cam Newton, who passed for 35 TD and had 10 INTs his 2015 MVP season and 19 TD with 14 INTs in 2016.

 

I'm not going to argue whether Cam or someone else is the "best dual threat QB in the history of the league".  What shouldn't be argued is that Cam Newton is a talented QB and now that he seems to have recovered from his injuries, he's once again playing at a high level.  If he weren't playing for the Pats, I'd happily root for him to pull a Kurt Warner.

 

I love seeing Cam making plays again, even if it's for the Pats. He's an exciting player.

Lamar's 2019 season is as memorable as they come. I like to think more are on deck.

[TheFunPolice]

Jackson is an exciting player who will continue to lead his team to a lot of wins. 

 

But against the best teams in the biggest spots (playoffs especially) he is going to need to come through to silence the doubters.

 

[Chuck Wagon]

No one is designing NFL plays for QBs to stand tall in the pocket, scan the entire field and find the open WR.  You've got guys like Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack wrecking shop.  Your entire thesis is utter trash.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Chuck Wagon

[Fan in Chicago]

Just now, TheElectricCompany said:

 

I love seeing Cam making plays again, even if it's for the Pats. He's an exciting player.

Lamar's 2019 season is as memorable as they come. I like to think more are on deck.

The league is definitely more fun when there are several good QBs so there is reason to hope for Jackson to pull it all together and prove that yesterday (or any of his other games against the Chiefs) are an anomaly. I like seeing dual threat QBs if only as a variation to the pure pocket passers. I wish these QBs (not named Cam-who=plays-for-the-Pats***) good success except against the Bills

[wjag]

The thing I worry about for Lamar is they are eventually going to get him hurt running that much.  Everyone knows it’s coming.  Just not when.  They’re exposing him to too many hits by running it.  

Edited September 29, 2020 by wjag

[LabattBlue]

3 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Say it with me..."We don't have to tear down Lamar, to prop Josh up".

 

Lamar is a phenomenal player and deserves his place at the "elite of the elite" table. Josh is well on his way to earning a seat. Both of these things can exist simultaneously.

 

Frankly, I find this take to be garbage. "The end of an era" because the MVP had one bad game?  Get outta here...

 

Shaw - you come for the king, you better not miss.

100% agree!   Just a bad take by the OP. 

[colin]

so reading this thread, you'd think they don't pay coaches or other players besides qbs in the nfl.

 

its pretty obvious jackson has limitations as a passer, but the ravens also don't have the outside weapons they'd need for him to be passing the ball all over the place.  one point that was made before is what will the ravens look like if lemar is eating 40mm of cap.  i think that's a big one, because right now they have just nasty nasty talent up and down the d, and their OL and TE corps is silly good.  i think the nfl just can't play good D at the moment because of a lack of 

 

beyond the above, gregg roman kinda reminds me of kevin gilbride.  sick results every team he coached on, but then got chased out of town when it fell apart.  gilbride righted the ship w the NYG and won two chips.  it remains to be seen if roman/harby can fix this the way coughlin and gillbride did, but both OCs run a very unorthodox all in kind of O (but very different from each other) neither of which has much flexibility in it if things don't line up.  

 

one thing i don't think roman has ever had is a real game breaking WR to open up the field, i think the antonio brown speculation in this thread was pretty right on, adding a talent like that might be enough for the ravens to keep the d honest and just play advantage all the time.

 

eitherway, i hope the bills right the ship on D and smoke both these teams.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, TheElectricCompany said:

I love seeing Cam making plays again, even if it's for the Pats. He's an exciting player.

Lamar's 2019 season is as memorable as they come. I like to think more are on deck.

 

I think that the Ravens may have made a mistake trading Hurst, but I understand they felt long term they can't invest in Andrews, Hurst AND Boyle.  I did not realize they had done that, actually, and when I clued I thought maybe it was a mistake.

 

I see Lamar as being a bit in the spot where Josh Allen was last season. 

 

Josh had some big gaps in his game - the deep ball, the ability to throw with anticipation.  The better defenses "solved" that and smothered us.

 

IMO people don't give Lamar sufficient credit - he can in fact stand in the pocket and make reads, and the throws he makes, he makes very well.   But he does have gaps in his game, and if a defense is good enough to play sound gap control and take away the intermediate stuff (which last year, was not something most Ds could do), they could slow or stifle the Ravens.  We laid the foundation, the Titans built it up, now the Chiefs hammered in the sill.  So now it's on Lamar to "level up" again and start making some of those throws.  He did suffer some bad drops, and as above, I do wonder how losing his #2 TE is going to affect the game.  So far Boyle isn't filling those shoes.

Anyway, it puzzles me why some here believe Josh Allen can level up has game and improve, but a talented and uber-competitive QB like Lamar Jackson somehow can't.  He made a big jump in college, he made another huge jump last year, I don't see evidence to believe he's reached his ceiling yet.

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

I see what you are saying and it makes sense but I’m not writing off LJ anytime yet only because the Baltimore offense is built around what he does well and because their defense (at least this year) is one of the best in the NFL.

Roman is trying to run the same ball control, big play offense that he installed in San Francisco and Buffalo.   The only difference is that Jackson is a significantly better runner than Kaep or Tyrod.  
 

Whoever said that Baltimore is not built to play from behind is exactly correct.  When Lamar is down the entire offense seems to press really hard and ends up making some mistakes.  It happened against Tennessee in the playoffs and it happened last night

 

But given what LJ and the Ravens can do on the ground and given their defense, I think Baltimore will always be a tough out

[jethro_tull]

Well said and completely agreed- Michael Vick was in the same boat.    

When a QB has to improvise out of the pocket after the initial play call goes south you are in very rocky, inconsistent territory.  When you RELY on that type of improvisation to make plays you are doomed.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

37 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

Guess who else is guilty of that big time this season..Deshaun Watson.

 

Yep.  Allen got 2 15 yard penalties... took a terrible sack.  Hell the team gave up 29 unanswered points.  But the guy didn't waver or let the team around him know.  

[WEATHER DOT COM]

If Jackson's receivers could catch the ball last night, it's a close game.

[Sharky7337]

It may prove to be true but so far he has shown outside of this game to be a good passer.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

If Jackson's receivers could catch the ball last night, it's a close game.

 

Yeah - if the chiefs defenders could catch he may have a couple picks too.

 

I also think the chiefs not passing on 3rd or 4th and 1 was a big miss.  The ravens cannot stop your pass game, get the first. 

[H2o]

1 minute ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

If Jackson's receivers could catch the ball last night, it's a close game.

Yeah, his guys didn't do him any favors for sure. Andrews dropped a sure TD as well as a couple other passes. Boyle had a bad drop. Snead had a bad drop. The game as a whole though still is in line with the blueprint to beat a Jackson led team right now. Until he shows he can beat people from the pocket when they keep him contained, this will be the gameplan of those who have a good enough defense to execute it. I suspect they will have some real trouble on their hands this year just winning the division alone now that Pittsburgh has Ben Ro back. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

Well said and completely agreed- Michael Vick was in the same boat.    

When a QB has to improvise out of the pocket after the initial play call goes south you are in very rocky, inconsistent territory.  When you RELY on that type of improvisation to make plays you are doomed.  

 

Vicks best year was with Reid oddly enough.  Built a structure around him - improv will happen, but scheme to the players strengths. 

 

Note - buffalo brought in dennison to run a west coast zone rushing offense... with a QB who holds the ball and a power offensive line.  

Just now, H2o said:

Yeah, his guys didn't do him any favors for sure. Andrews dropped a sure TD as well as a couple other passes. Boyle had a bad drop. Snead had a bad drop. The game as a whole though still is in line with the blueprint to beat a Jackson led team right now. Until he shows he can beat people from the pocket when they keep him contained, this will be the gameplan of those who have a good enough defense to execute it. I suspect they will have some real trouble on their hands this year just winning the division alone now that Pittsburgh has Ben Ro back. 

 

People were like andrews dropped that 2nd TD and all i was thinknig was... thats a TOUGH catch.  

[TheElectricCompany]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I see Lamar as being a bit in the spot where Josh Allen was last season. 

 

Josh had some big gaps in his game - the deep ball, the ability to throw with anticipation.  The better defenses "solved" that and smothered us.

 

IMO people don't give Lamar sufficient credit - he can in fact stand in the pocket and make reads, and the throws he makes, he makes very well.   But he does have gaps in his game, and if a defense is good enough to play sound gap control and take away the intermediate stuff (which last year, was not something most Ds could do), they could slow or stifle the Ravens.  We laid the foundation, the Titans built it up, now the Chiefs hammered in the sill.  So now it's on Lamar to "level up" again and start making some of those throws.  He did suffer some bad drops, and as above, I do wonder how losing his #2 TE is going to affect the game.  So far Boyle isn't filling those shoes.

Anyway, it puzzles me why some here believe Josh Allen can level up has game and improve, but a talented and uber-competitive QB like Lamar Jackson somehow can't.  He made a big jump in college, he made another huge jump last year, I don't see evidence to believe he's reached his ceiling yet.

 

I never got the sense that LJ threw a poor deep ball, but  I know that was a popular offseason take. He throws some beautiful passes.

 

It's not often that we see a NFL player who can get over limitations with athleticism, but he's able to do so when he runs. The "play sound gap control" strategy is simple in concept, but extremely difficult to do in practice. He can run past or elude the vast majority of defenders he faces. The play against Milano last year, or the spin against the Bengals, simply isn't something you can gameplan around.

 

We're seeing what Josh's ceiling looks like, as well as Lamar's. The future is bright for both clubs, and both QBs will improve!

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[H2o]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

People were like andrews dropped that 2nd TD and all i was thinknig was... thats a TOUGH catch.  

Yeah it wasn't routine or anything, but it's a catch he usually would make. He is one of the better receiving TE's in the NFL right now. 

[QCity]

Running QBs don't last.