The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[racketmaster]

3 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

Umm, what?? How do you gather that? Allen might be able to throw it a couple of yards further, but you don't see Mahomes make nearly as many bad throws as Allen does either. I know everyone is on the hype train right now, but Allen is not even close to Mahomes. Likely never will be. And that's okay.

It really depends on if you think Allen can continue to play at the level he is playing at or not. If he continues playing like has then he very much is in the discussion with being as good as Mahomes, especially when you add in the fact he is more of a dual threat. Mahomes might still be better but that is in part because we have seen him play at a high level for a longer period of time. 

[CapeBreton]

Not surprised that he is seeing some regression in his passing stats. Last year, his receivers were always WIDE OPEN and he made a lot of easy throws, absolutely no defenders in sight because defenses were selling out to stop the run. 

 

Not sure why Kyler Murray was mentioned, he looks like a solid QB all around.

[JMF2006]

1 hour ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Its not the end of an era, but Lamar does need to be consistent throwing the ball to be successful long term. He had 35 yards at halftime. No chance to win a game if thats what you put up through the air

 

Tyrod V2 is what I have always said.

 

Maybe a bit more talent but cut out of the same cloth and stopped by defenses the same way.

[blacklabel]

I'll give Lamar a mulligan on this one. If they do falter this season, I'll put it on Greg Roman. It's happened everywhere he's gone, he designs an offense that can lead the league in rushing year after year but his passing concepts have always been pretty elementary from what I've read. Once you stop his run game, he struggles to attack you through the air. It caught up to him in both San Francisco and Buffalo. Both teams could run the ball all day and do well with a lead. If they fell behind and had to throw it a bunch, forget it. If he can't adjust to help Lamar then they could have some trouble. 

[whatdrought]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well yeah, using any single season to predict a players future is a bit silly.  But, to win an MVP, you have to be more than just lucky, I mean there needs to be talent there.  Lamar may or may not ever win it again, but I do think he will have a long career as a starter in the NFL.  

 

Question...and I did not look it up myself, so dont know the answer...but has any player who won MVP while young or in their prime ever fallen off a cliff after winning it?  Someone who was nearing the end of their respective career in other words.  

But there in is the problem. The other poster in this conversation said you can’t question Lamar cause he’s an MVP. I said that’s not how that works. That’s how we got to this point in time. 😛

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

Bills Fans seem unusually threatened by the success/hype of Jackson.

 

probably wouldn’t be as intense Had he been drafted in a “different” draft class and not in the one with Josh.

 

that in itself I see is producing a certain response from the fans.

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Here's the problem.  If AB's behavior was the result of a Diva ego gone out of control combined with teams that let him push the limits bit by bit until they were somewhere beyond Jupiter, "strong coaching staff" and not putting up with locker room issues may stem this.

 

But if AB's behavior is the result of a mental illness, substance abuse, or fatally flawed impulse control and creating a "reality bubble" of yes-men around his life, nothing will stop it.  BIG distraction.

 

 

Thats a fair assessment, and Brown's behavior is so extreme its a legit question mark.  But the only way to really find that out is for someone to give him a shot.

[TheElectricCompany]

21 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

I’m saying MVP doesn’t mean anything for long term projection and it doesn’t make a player unquestionably good as the poster I was engaged in implied. 

 

There's no precedent for elite MVP QBs regressing to average, especially 22 year olds.

 

What are we really arguing here, that Lamar isn't unquestionably good?   That's he not an elite player and one of the best dual threat playmakers in the league? Geezus, Shaw's OP said that he LIMITS their offense, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

He is younger than Joe Burrow right now and has already led the league in TD passes, broke the rushing yardage record and won a MVP. He has given us zero reason to believe that he can't continue to improve and be a force for a decade or more. This is not about him being the best player in the league, but he is absolutely a top talent, and one that deserves some 'spect on his name.

 

I'll say this - there are plenty of elite players in this league, but there are a small percentage of elite players that look like they are playing on Madden rookie mode . It usually isn't for their entire careers, but it's enough to leave a permanent impression. Odell Beckham, Revis, Gronk and JJ Watt each had multi year streaks where they were truly unstoppable and captivated football fans everywhere . We are in a time where Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Tyreek Hill and Aaron Donald (there are others, but not many) are showing those characteristics multiple times a year and absolutely abusing their competition. Josh is starting to enter that conversation, and I look forward to seeing these two QBs tear up the league for years to come.

Edited September 29, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

But there in is the problem. The other poster in this conversation said you can’t question Lamar cause he’s an MVP. I said that’s not how that works. That’s how we got to this point in time. 😛

 

Well that is also a fair point, can't just say he's a former MVP and because of that he is above questions or criticisms.  So I agree with your take on that, I was just saying that regardless if he ever recaptures the magic of last season, he will still likely be a dangerous threat for a long time in this league, even if its not ever as good again as last season.  

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

There's no precedent for elite MVP QBs regressing to average, especially 22 year olds.

 

What are we really arguing here, that Lamar isn't unquestionably good?   That's he not an elite player and one of the best dual threat playmakers in the league? Geezus, Shaw's OP said that he LIMITS their offense, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

He is younger than Joe Burrow right now and has already led the league in TD passes, broke the rushing yardage record and won a MVP. He has given us zero reason to believe that he can't continue to improve and be a force for a decade or more.

 

I'll say this - there are plenty of elite players in this league, but there are a small percentage of elite players that look like they are playing on Madden rookie mode . It usually isn't for their entire careers, but it's enough to leave a permanent impression. Odell Beckham, Revis, Gronk and JJ Watt each had multi year streaks where they were truly unstoppable and captivated football fans everywhere . We are in a time where Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, Tyreek Hill and Aaron Donald (there are others, but not many) are showing those characteristics multiple times a year and absolutely abusing their compeition. Josh is starting to enter that conversation, and I look forward to seeing these two QBs tear up the league for years to come.

 

You’re not arguing anything. If you remember, that’s where yours and my interaction began was me calling you out for calling Shaw’s post stupid without nothing to engage it. You still haven’t. I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying Lamar isn’t good in his own way (Shaw certainly didn’t), critics are pointing to his flaws and shortcomings. You didn’t want to debate those, so you acted superior and considered the debate below you. 

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

Pursue what is meaningful, not expedient.  Its like the drug dealer vs medical student.  Baltimore got fast results immediately, while the student hit the books and learned valuable info he can carry for life consequence free. PAGING DR. ALLEN!!!!!!!!!! Allen will have the meaningful career, Lamar will be a trivia question.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

To be fair though - they have specifically chosen they players for their offense.  It is not that he doesn’t have weapons - the Ravens looked at Jackson’s strengths and brought people to enhance those strengths.  
 

Rather than go for speed and WR talent - they recognized that Jackson was good at motion and hitting big targets between the hashes - so they focused on TEs that could block and give him the targets he needs.

 

I look back to last year Buffalo versus Baltimore and I see a Baltimore team that could do next to nothing on offense, but the Bills offense was so out of sync - they could not capitalize and get the lead to put that pressure on the Ravens.

 

If the Bills used that same Defense with this years offense - it would have looked more like what the Chiefs did to the Ravens.

 

The ravens just blitzed the crap out of allen, and he failed the test.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well that is also a fair point, can't just say he's a former MVP and because of that he is above questions or criticisms.  So I agree with your take on that, I was just saying that regardless if he ever recaptures the magic of last season, he will still likely be a dangerous threat for a long time in this league, even if its not ever as good again as last season.  

 

I think there’s some truth to that, but I think it’s questionable what long time is. Is it 1 year until he gets an injury and loses half a step? Or is it 5 years when his running slows down and he can’t make it up with his arm.

 

That’s the problem with Lamar. He has one pitch (his running) and unless that’s working to keep the defense scared and open everything else up, he can’t thrive. Now, that could change for sure, but that’s where we’re at right now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, JMF2006 said:

Tyrod V2 is what I have always said.

Maybe a bit more talent but cut out of the same cloth and stopped by defenses the same way.

 

I see where people get that, but they really aren't in the same class.  It's sort of like calling Josh Allen "Blake Bortles v2". 

 

Yeah, there are some similarities, but Lamar in college was a more talented and productive passer with more raw arm talent, and he is a stronger and faster runner as well.

[wjag]

Living in Maryland I get force fed a lot of Lamar.  When they get that rushing game going, which they do nearly every week, his passing goes way up. No surprise there.  That’s the NFL blueprint. He can throw it downfield.  He had 36 TDs last year. My take is he excels at the Brady to Gronk routes.  TEs down the middle.  He throws decent to his left.  It’s the right sideline throws he needs to polish.  He’s more comfortable throwing to TEs. Andrews is a big target.  He finds him.  Take away Ingram, Andrews and middle of the field and make it the Lamar show and you can defend him.  
 

What I notice about his play so far this year is that he isn’t in run first mode like he was in last year.  They are working on making his pocket awareness better.  
 

He needs to learn to play with some adversity.  Playing ahead has to be oodles of fun.  Making plays when the game is on the line rounds out the QB.  

[Rochesterfan]

Just now, dneveu said:

 

The ravens just blitzed the crap out of allen, and he failed the test.

 Do you think that changes this year or not?

 

The Bills had Brown and Beasley and if teams doubled Brown and kept middle day with pressure - Allen had little he could do.

 

I think like when Baltimore Blitzed KC - Allen this year has a few tricks to punish teams.  

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

I said this last season  but I got flack because mvp. Jackson is an amazing athlete but he only has one good pass. Down the seam to the TE. It was apparent last season 

[Mark Vader]

2 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Say it with me..."We don't have to tear down Lamar, to prop Josh up".

 

Lamar is a phenomenal player and deserves his place at the "elite of the elite" table. Josh is well on his way to earning a seat. Both of these things can exist simultaneously.

 

Frankly, I find this take to be garbage. "The end of an era" because the MVP had one bad game?  Get outta here...

 

Shaw - you come for the king, you better not miss.

The King met The Chief last night, and lost.

[TheElectricCompany]

4 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

You’re not arguing anything. If you remember, that’s where yours and my interaction began was me calling you out for calling Shaw’s post stupid without nothing to engage it. You still haven’t. I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying Lamar isn’t good in his own way (Shaw certainly didn’t), critics are pointing to his flaws and shortcomings. You didn’t want to debate those, so you acted superior and considered the debate below you. 

 

Shaw's OP had some ridiculous (we can call them stupid) takes I've already highlighted, and I stand by them. 

 

they're a couple of the best running backs in the league

Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't. 

good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

There's no precedent for elite MVP QBs regressing to average, especially 22 year olds.

 

There are examples further back, but most recently 2016 Cam Newton and 2017 Matt Ryan called.  They said to say "Hi"

 

I guess this could open a can of worms debate about what "elite" and what "average" look like and I don't want to go there.  The point is there is plenty of precedent for an elite MVP QB to "regress to their mean", or to have an off year, the year after they win the title.  It takes a very rare human being to be an NFL QB in the first place, but it takes a rare NFL QB to not let their head get a bit turned by the Hype Train Express that follows the league MVP gig.