The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[H2o]

11 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

The blueprint to "contain" Lamar Jackson is fairly straight forward but often too difficult.  It starts with run defense up the middle and edge discipline to try and keep Lamar in the pocket.  If the RBs gash the middle, it's gonna be a long day.  If Lamar can get the edge it's gonna be a long day.  He's so damn fast that you think they have a line on them but he still gets the edge and turns the corner for a big gain.  The other part is to control their TEs in play action which is easier said than done because if the LBs are being sucked up to stop the run, the TEs will have more space.  Therefore, the goal is to stop the run up the middle, control the edge, control the TEs, and force him to throw to the edge.  

 

Baltimore panicked last night and felt they had to get into a shootout.  If they would have stuck with what their strength is, they might have had a better chance.  

Remember when he juked Milano out of his jock strap last year in that game? 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree with all this too. And Antonio Brown if he can still play is EXACTLY the type of player he needs. A guy who is an elite route runner running every route. Their own Stef Diggs if you like.

Yeah, Ravens are probably the most ideal fit.  Strong coaching staff that won’t put up with locker room issues and proved that by cutting Earl Thomas already, so AB comes in knowing he won’t get away with any antics.  And he has family on the team as well to hopefully help kee his head straight.  Add in that be immediately becomes the featured weapon, something that will motivate AB even more to prove he’s still an elite player, and it could t be a more ideal fit.  Plus, he’s an ideal tutor in terms of play style for Marquise as well.

 

If AB plays in the NFL again, this is where I think it will be.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

Come on Shaw this is an overreaction. Jackson is still a very good QB who had a bad game and yes, needs to work on his pocket-passing. Some days you're the hammer and some days you're the nail. It was simply Lamar's turn to be the nail last night. It's not like the things you're saying are a new idea "hey let's force the kid to pass and limit his runs" is pretty much what every team who has played the Ravens has said and he's usually been able to get it done.

 

Wonder if Josh Allen would get that kind of a response if he threw a 97 yarder out there?

 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

He was not after his MVP season. Some of that was injuries, but the overall point being that MVP on the resume doesn’t dictate future performance. 

But that’s not a fair comparison either.  Alexander won it after years of being a monster and carrying a massive load of touches per season.  He won it close to end of his career, so to use him as an example to discredit Lamars future who won it in his 2nd season is also a bit silly wouldn’t you say.  
 

Alexander was the best RB in football or among the best for many seasons prior to winning the MVP too, but after that year his body started breaking down from all the wear on his body and retired 2 seasons later.  

[whatdrought]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But that’s not a fair comparison either.  Alexander won it after years of being a monster and carrying a massive load of touches per season.  He won it close to end of his career, so to use him as an example to discredit Lamars future who won it in his 2nd season is also a bit silly wouldn’t you say.  
 

Alexander was the best RB in football or among the best for many seasons prior to winning the MVP too, but after that year his body started breaking down from all the wear on his body and retired 2 seasons later.  

 

I’m not using it to discredit Lamar’s future. I’m saying MVP in a vacuum is a worthless basis of argument for a players future. 

[Orlando Buffalo]

This is a terrible game against the world champs but the blueprint has been there for his whole career, you just have to execute. Very few teams have executed it as well.

[BuffalOhio]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

I agree with you.  I think, when someday the book on Allen's career is written (which will include several Lombardis), one of the themes will be that he learned the hard way to save himself for the next play.  It may not happen this year, but it's going to happen with the way he plays - he's going to get himself hurt.  Every single QB or player generally who plays the way he does eventually gets hurt, and many of them change their behavior afterwards as a result.  You can tell McD is struggling with how to coach this aspect of Josh's personality - you want the fire and the compete, you love the toughness and leadership, but there's just a fine line between going all out and taking unnecessary risks.  Someday, Allen will learn to throw the ball out of bounds or run out of bounds or slide, because he'll get hurt.  And the change won't be out of fear of getting hurt - it will be because he hates letting his teammates down by getting hurt.  That's the kind of person he is.

He needs to NOT put the fingers of his throwing hand into defender's facemasks.  That will lead to snapped fingers and Barkley in the lineup.  

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

He was not after his MVP season. Some of that was injuries, but the overall point being that MVP on the resume doesn’t dictate future performance. 

It was an injury (broken foot bone) but also famously a case of player getting massively paid and deciding that he didn't really like taking punishment anymore because he was basically set for life. Before that contract, he had had five seasons in a row of over 1600 yards from scrimmage and at least 16 TDs (he had 98 TDs over five seasons, which is insane). After he got paid, his ypc went immediately from 5.1 to 3.6, and he was gone from the league within two years. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, BUFFALOTONE said:

How about the fact that KCs defense is very much improved and that should be a concern to the whole AFC. Whatever you think about LJ, he was basically nullified and so was their running game for roughly 3 1/2 quarters. Spagnola had a great game plan. Jackson is a stud and is still improving, one bad game doesn’t mean anything. 

 

This.

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It was an injury (broken foot bone) but also famously a case of player getting massively paid and deciding that he didn't really like taking punishment anymore because he was basically set for life. Before that contract, he had had five seasons in a row of over 1600 yards from scrimmage and at least 16 TDs (he had 98 TDs over five seasons, which is insane). After he got paid, his ypc went immediately from 5.1 to 3.6, and he was gone from the league within two years. 

 

Yeah- I’m not arguing Lamar is Sean Alexander. I’m saying MVP doesn’t mean anything for long term projection and it doesn’t make a player unquestionably good as the poster I was engaged in implied. 

[Bill Lewes]

Good thread!    The original headline is my only issue - way sensational and, well, silly.       The OPs comments and many of the thoughtful posts along the way have really good, smart, good football chatter!    Thank you, all!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, BuffalOhio said:

He needs to NOT put the fingers of his throwing hand into defender's facemasks.  That will lead to snapped fingers and Barkley in the lineup.  

 

Not to mention a differently-coached LB like Trystan Hill grabbing his throwing arm and Chris Carson-ing it. 

 

Do we think there might be a DC in our division who coaches players to do just those sort of marginal unsportsmanlike things? Hmmm, let me think...Why Yes.  Yes there Is. 

 

Even without ill intent, Allen's hand getting jammed if the LBs trip and go to the ground on their own rather than with him controlling it, and he could be out for weeks.  Someone on the Bills team needs to get into Allen's head this week and pile-drive that message into his cerebellum before a defender pile-drives his throwing arm.  It's not just a 15 yard penalty, it's potentially the season.

[BUFFALOTONE]

22 minutes ago, H2o said:

Remember when he juked Milano out of his jock strap last year in that game? 

 

I think I pulled my groin on that play...

[Nihilarian]

Oh, because one team has another teams number... then everything unravels...no!

 

Ravens schedule, Washington, Cincy, Philly, Pittsburgh, Indy, NE, Tenn, Pitt, Dallas, Cleveland, Jacksonville, NY Giants, Cincy. This is a playoff team that will be there at the end of the season. 

 

The Chiefs almost lost to the Chargers in OT 23-20, their next opponents, NE, Raiders, Bills. Then Denver, Jets, Panthers, Raiders, Bucs, Denver, Miami, Saints, Atlanta, Chargers. 

 

Who knows what the season holds for each team. We shall see!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

[Antonio Brown]
Yeah, Ravens are probably the most ideal fit.  Strong coaching staff that won’t put up with locker room issues and proved that by cutting Earl Thomas already, so AB comes in knowing he won’t get away with any antics.  And he has family on the team as well to hopefully help kee his head straight.  Add in that be immediately becomes the featured weapon, something that will motivate AB even more to prove he’s still an elite player, and it could t be a more ideal fit.  Plus, he’s an ideal tutor in terms of play style for Marquise as well.

 

If AB plays in the NFL again, this is where I think it will be.

 

Here's the problem.  If AB's behavior was the result of a Diva ego gone out of control combined with teams that let him push the limits bit by bit until they were somewhere beyond Jupiter, "strong coaching staff" and not putting up with locker room issues may stem this.

 

But if AB's behavior is the result of a mental illness, substance abuse, or fatally flawed impulse control and creating a "reality bubble" of yes-men around his life, nothing will stop it.  BIG distraction.

 

 

[eball]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

I was watching Mahomes last night and you see the things he does that separates him from Allen. When he runs he doesn't take hits. He slides or he gets out of bounds. When a play is busted he will throw the ball away and live to fight another down. A lot of the throws Allen is making this year is just like Mahomes, but he needs to preserve himself by not taking the hits when he can and throw the ball away when necessary because it's not the end of the world. This will be the next step in the maturation of Allen. 

 

 

The difference between Allen and Mahomes is that even though Mahomes can run he only runs when he has to or a play breaks down...they don't design runs for him (that I've seen).  Josh's running ability is actually a weapon, forcing defenses to keep a spy on him.  Josh is, one would presume, more durable than the slighter Mahomes and this likely plays into it.  I agree that Josh needs to learn to protect himself (and the football) more, but I don't see the running decreasing as a part of his "maturation" -- he'll just be smarter about it.

 

As for Lamar, I'm not going to get into that discussion.  I'm on record that I don't think what Baltimore is doing with him is sustainable for any significant period of time.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by eball

[QB Bills]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

Umm, what?? How do you gather that? Allen might be able to throw it a couple of yards further, but you don't see Mahomes make nearly as many bad throws as Allen does either. I know everyone is on the hype train right now, but Allen is not even close to Mahomes. Likely never will be. And that's okay.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Eh. I would be pissed if JA had a clunker and the rest of the league said, see! I told you he wasn't any good!

 

Which, in fact, has been done in some quarters after the Houston loss.

 

I think last night was more about the KC defense and offense than about Lamar having an "off night".  Lamar had his lunch money (and his off night) handed to him.  I think it may be true that KC looked past the Chargers a bit and put more horses into prepping for the Ravens.

[BeastMaster]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

I agree on Jackson.

 

Murray is a much better passer though and has a much better chance to be a Russell Wilson type than someone like Lamar that could flame out. 

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

I’m not using it to discredit Lamar’s future. I’m saying MVP in a vacuum is a worthless basis of argument for a players future. 

 

Well yeah, using any single season to predict a players future is a bit silly.  But, to win an MVP, you have to be more than just lucky, I mean there needs to be talent there.  Lamar may or may not ever win it again, but I do think he will have a long career as a starter in the NFL.  

 

Question...and I did not look it up myself, so dont know the answer...but has any player who won MVP while young or in their prime ever fallen off a cliff after winning it?  Someone who was nearing the end of their respective career in other words.