The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Yep - look at the MVP list from the past 30 years...the floor is Rich Gannon (and he won it at 37)

Thank you for defeating your own argument. If Rich Gannon can win an MVP, anyone can. One years performance is not indicative of a career path. Sean Alexander says hi.

 

Additionally (and you’d know this if you actually were here to have an intellectual conversation) Lamar’s MVP season is built as much on his running as it is his passing. Take that away and he’s not an MVP. So that award has little relevance to the conversation of Lamar as a QB. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

Greg Roman offense. Once teams figure out what he’s doing they aren’t as effective or the qb without him ends up bad. His running game is a huge reason for success of offense. 

[TheElectricCompany]

7 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Thank you for defeating your own argument. If Rich Gannon can win an MVP, anyone can. One years performance is not indicative of a career path. Sean Alexander says hi.

 

Additionally (and you’d know this if you actually were here to have an intellectual conversation) Lamar’s MVP season is built as much on his running as it is his passing. Take that away and he’s not an MVP.

 

You can't take away Lamar's running ability, and he led the league in passing TDs last year.

Damn, did we do the same thing with Mahomes in 2018? Trying to put an asterisk on everything he accomplished in ~2 seasons in exhausting.

This thread needs some video:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/9/28/21459095/lamar-jackson-patrick-mahomes-15-best-highlights-ranked

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[H2o]

3 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Greg Roman offense. Once teams figure out what he’s doing they aren’t as effective or the qb without him ends up bad. His running game is a huge reason for success of offense. 

And the RB's they have fit perfectly as well. I know Ingram gets most of the focus and they have Dobbins now, but I would love to have Edwards lining up in our backfield. That dude is beast to bring down out there. 

[416BillsFan]

Alternate title: The End of the Hollywood Brown & Mark Andrews Era. Jackson's performance wasn't good, but amazed that these two are getting off so easy.

[BUFFALOTONE]

How about the fact that KCs defense is very much improved and that should be a concern to the whole AFC. Whatever you think about LJ, he was basically nullified and so was their running game for roughly 3 1/2 quarters. Spagnola had a great game plan. Jackson is a stud and is still improving, one bad game doesn’t mean anything. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

The blueprint to "contain" Lamar Jackson is fairly straight forward but often too difficult.  It starts with run defense up the middle and edge discipline to try and keep Lamar in the pocket.  If the RBs gash the middle, it's gonna be a long day.  If Lamar can get the edge it's gonna be a long day.  He's so damn fast that you think they have a line on them but he still gets the edge and turns the corner for a big gain.  The other part is to control their TEs in play action which is easier said than done because if the LBs are being sucked up to stop the run, the TEs will have more space.  Therefore, the goal is to stop the run up the middle, control the edge, control the TEs, and force him to throw to the edge.  

 

Baltimore panicked last night and felt they had to get into a shootout.  If they would have stuck with what their strength is, they might have had a better chance.  

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Eh. I would be pissed if JA had a clunker and the rest of the league said, see! I told you he wasn't any good! I don't think we should do the same to LJ. 

 

Tonight seemed as much about LJ having an off night as anything. 

I'm betting it's more of this too.  KC is a very good team.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Pokebball
added to response

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

2 minutes ago, 416BillsFan said:

Alternate title: The End of the Hollywood Brown & Mark Andrews Era. Jackson's performance wasn't good, but amazed that these two are getting off so easy.

I needed 1.5 more fantasy points from those two last night! They’re not getting off easy from me!

[aristocrat]

that's a short era

[whatdrought]

6 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

You can't take away Lamar's running ability, and he led the league in passing TDs last year.

Damn, did we do the same thing with Mahomes in 2018? Trying to put an asterisk on everything he accomplished in ~2 seasons in exhausting.

This thread needs some video:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/9/28/21459095/lamar-jackson-patrick-mahomes-15-best-highlights-ranked

 

 

 

 

except when the conversation is about Lamar as a Quarterback, and not a running back, you most certainly can and should focus on that one thing that defines quarterbacks... what is it again? Oh yeah. throwing the damn football. 

[97bills]

51 minutes ago, Chemical said:

if you were in the GDT last night you would have seen how desperate Bills fans are to bury Lamar, and how happy they were when he didn’t connect with his receivers. Maybe it makes some people feel better for passing on him  Personally I think it’s transparent and pathetic. It’s borderline racist when he’s called a running back, but that label was never thrown around for Allen. 
 

He had a perfect deep pass that was dropped in the end zone by Andrews that cost me my fantasy game this week. 
 

 

they were running the ball early. Then had a kickoff returned for a td. His passing was off in the first half but he also didn’t have many opportunities. 

I’m eating cookies with out milk that’s borderline racist 🤫

[Golden*Wheels]

Well the Lamar hype era has ended, at least. The "we need two young QBs to sell the matchup" era is also dead, as who matches with Mahomes right now....freakin' nobody. Maybe they put Josh in that spot next. BIG shoes to fill.

 

 

[416BillsFan]

Just now, Chemical said:

I needed 1.5 more fantasy points from those two last night! They’re not getting off easy from me!

Same boat, they almost blew it for me, but CEH staying out of the end zone saved my bacon. Will credit Andrew for the 1 point I got from his tackle (Our league plays 2 IDPs).

[hemma]

I know that if all NFL teams adopted this offense, I'd do my best to become a soccer fan.

Boring football.

[Alphadawg7]

I said all last year I would rather have Allen over Lamar.  I think Allen has a much higher ceiling and that I was skeptical about the Ravens offense long term as the league adjusts to stopping it.  And once it was figured out (Niners and Bills last year laid the ground work to slowing it down) then it would be inconsistent.  
 

However, that doesn’t mean Lamar is done being a dangerous starting QB.  That’s a bit extreme.  
 

Second, Kyler Murray is the real deal, he’s a good passing QB as well as a lethal runner.  He has Russel Wilson type potential, where as Lamar was always more like Vick type potential.  
 

I think Allen will prove to be a top 5 QB for the next decade and Kyler has that same potential.  Lamar I think will be that guy like a Newton or Vick where he’s a more dangerous runner than passer, but still can’t be over looked and still can beat you on any given day, just will lack consistency due to having limitations as a thrower.  
 

Would also add that Andrews and Brown had a bunch of drops last night and didn’t help Lamar out.  So this is all a bit knee jerk reaction to one game.  He by far has the weakest set of weapons around him in terms of Mahomes, Allen, and Murray.  He needs help, much like Josh did.  
 

Wont surprise me at all to see Ravens kick the tires on Antonio Brown once his 8 game suspension nears ending, especially if Brown keeps himself out of the negative spot light until then.  He’s been relatively quiet during the season, and I think part of that is that has to do with teams expressing interest under the condition he STFU and keeps his nose clean during that time.  
 

17 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Thank you for defeating your own argument. If Rich Gannon can win an MVP, anyone can. One years performance is not indicative of a career path. Sean Alexander says hi.

 

Additionally (and you’d know this if you actually were here to have an intellectual conversation) Lamar’s MVP season is built as much on his running as it is his passing. Take that away and he’s not an MVP. So that award has little relevance to the conversation of Lamar as a QB. 

Shaun Alexander was a monster for several years.  Not sure why you bring him up, terrible comparison.  

Edited September 29, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I said all last year I would rather have Allen over Lamar.  I think Allen has a much higher ceiling and that I was skeptical about the Ravens offense long term as the league adjusts to stopping it.  And once it was figured out (Niners and Bills last year laid the ground work to slowing it down) then it would be inconsistent.  
 

However, that doesn’t mean Lamar is done being a dangerous starting QB.  That’s a bit extreme.  
 

Second, Kyler Murray is the real deal, he’s a good passing QB as well as a lethal runner.  He has Russel Wilson type potential, where as Lamar was always more like Vick type potential.  
 

I think Allen will prove to be a top 5 QB for the next decade and Kyler has that same potential.  Lamar I think will be that guy like a Newton or Vick where he’s a more dangerous runner than passer, but still can’t be over looked and still can beat you on any given day, just will lack consistency due to having limitations as a thrower.  
 

Would also add that Andrews and Brown had a bunch of drops last night and didn’t help Lamar out.  So this is all a bit knee jerk reaction to one game.  He by far has the weakest set of weapons around him in terms of Mahomes, Allen, and Murray.  He needs help, much like Josh did.  
 

Wont surprise me at all to see Ravens kick the tires on Antonio Brown once his 8 game suspension nears ending, especially if Brown keeps himself out of the negative spot light until then.  He’s been relatively quiet during the season, and I think part of that is that has to do with teams expressing interest under the condition he STFU and keeps his nose clean during that time.  

 

Agree with all this too. And Antonio Brown if he can still play is EXACTLY the type of player he needs. A guy who is an elite route runner running every route. Their own Stef Diggs if you like.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road.

 

I agree with you in terms of what the Bills were looking for in a QB and why.  They emphatically did not draft Josh Allen to be a dual-threat, much less a run-first QB.  They said straight up that they wanted a QB who can work from the pocket.  The experts laughed when we drafted Allen saying that's just what he couldn't be.  After it became clear that, beyond expectations he was a big MOBILE QB and in fact a legitimate dual threat, some experts flipped and said we should retool our defense a la Ravens to take more advantage of him.  Bills said "Ah, No Thank You, Steady as She Goes."  I agree that's right for us.

 

As far as the "End of the Jackson Era", Sorry @Shaw66, but I think that's pretentious on so many levels. 

The first level, which stem from Punditland not you, is declaring a "Lamar Jackson Era" in the first place on the basis of one Hot Hot season and a "one and done" exit from the playoffs.  Kaepernick and the SF49ers were supposed to be an enduring offensive juggernaut as well after their SB appearance, that take didn't age well. Over a lifetime of watching football, I've learned in the School of Hard Knocks not to declare a long term pattern of Enduring Victory or Agonizing Defeat based on a season or a handful of games, much less one game.

 

But I've also learned not to declare a football problem "solved" or predict the end of a strong system based on one game.  A lot of people were predicting that the Josh Allen Experiment had come to a crashing end after the Texans loss.  When the stage was big, see! Allen melted down.  Pretender, not Contender, it was said.  Time will tell.

 

Last year the Bills saw firsthand the problems an offense faces when the D doesn't need to defend the whole field.  Once it was established that the Bills lacked both a credible deep threat AND a credible screen game, "Blitz Zero" or "Cover 0" was On, with the ability to stifle the intermediate and middle routes and rushes our offense did well.  This off-season, the Bills worked their butts off to establish both a screen game, and a credible deep threat by an upgrade at WR.  Allen worked his butt off to fill the gaps in his game and make good use of both.  So far, looks good, but there's a lot of football left.

 

Jackson has a limitation.  The Bills exposed it, the Titans exploited it, and last night the Kansas City Chiefs eviscerated it.  He doesn't, or can't, make all the throws.  He'll stand in the pocket and throw deep, and he'll throw over the middle (usually to the TE), but he can't hit the sideline routes consistently.  If a team can successfully contain the Ravens run game and take away the middle while manning up on the deep routes, they're toast.  The question was: would Jackson fill that gap over the winter? (We sometimes act as though our guy is the only QB who can level up and develop)

The answer seems to be "No" so far, but this is an odd season with all the OTA and mini-camp reps gone AWOL.   It's possible they're still a bit out of sync and they'll pick it up.  It's also possible that the MVP thing went to Jackson's head and he took his foot off the gas in terms of development, but he'll get a wakeup call and figure it out this off season.  And, it's possible he won't, and in that case you'll be right.

 

Lamar had a terrible, horrible, no good very bad game last night. His receivers didn't help, dropping balls they should have caught.  It remains to be seen whether that will be a pattern, or whether the Birds flew in to watch film, figured some things out, and flapped to the lab to soar to success.  I will say, I don't think every defense can do what KC (or the Titans, or the Bills) did.  So it's far too early to predict the end of an Era it was far too early to declare.

 

My major disappointment about last night was that I had hopes Wink Martindale would lay down a blueprint the Bills could work from to slow KC's offense.

Not so much.  Perhaps The Evil Hoodie will come up with something.

[ndirish1978]

Come on Shaw this is an overreaction. Jackson is still a very good QB who had a bad game and yes, needs to work on his pocket-passing. Some days you're the hammer and some days you're the nail. It was simply Lamar's turn to be the nail last night. It's not like the things you're saying are a new idea "hey let's force the kid to pass and limit his runs" is pretty much what every team who has played the Ravens has said and he's usually been able to get it done.

[whatdrought]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Shaun Alexander was a monster for several years.  Not sure why you bring him up, terrible comparison.  

He was not after his MVP season. Some of that was injuries, but the overall point being that MVP on the resume doesn’t dictate future performance.