The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[JohnNord]

11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They wouldn't win a game without Allen this year... seriously. They'd lose to the Jets at least once. 

It’s very possible, though I am sure that the Bills offense devolves quite a bit with Barkley at the helm.  

[Max Fischer]

Let's try to remember that EVERY team the Bills could face in the playoffs will be dangerous. There is no easy path to the Super Bowl, only degrees of difficulty that range from tough to extreme danger. 

[Figster]

21 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They wouldn't win a game without Allen this year... seriously. They'd lose to the Jets at least once. 

Myself personally,  I think Barkley with a good D backing him up wins atleast half of his games IMO. Diggs and Beasley will still make catches and the RB's will still produce with possibly a little more of a shift to the run game.

 

I respectfully disagree ScottLaw

 

I like Matt Barkley and believe he shows potential. Getting an accurate assessment of his capabilities through the scattered playing time under bad conditions is hard to do IMO.  

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

Let's try to remember that EVERY team the Bills could face in the playoffs will be dangerous. There is no easy path to the Super Bowl, only degrees of difficulty that range from tough to extreme danger. 

Agreed.

 

There is no team in the playoffs that the Bills can't beat (including the Chiefs, although it would be a tough win) but there also will be no team that the bills would be guaranteed to beat.  Remember, this is a team that lost to the cardinals and Titans (and chiefs) and was one possession away from potentially losing 4 other games. They didn't lose them, that is the most important thing, but in the playoffs every game is hopefully a coin toss that is slightly favored toward your side.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

None of them were ever in Jackson's league as a runner. 

 

For sure it is hard to have a backup do what Jackson does. He is special but in a really unconventional way. That is the truth. 

Actually, do you think it would make any sense if you were the Ravens GM to get a backup by signing an undrafted free agent QB out of some school that runs a wide open college offense?   Some quick guy who can throw those option passes, maybe too small for other NFL teams to be interested in him.  At least that way you'd have someone who actually could run the offense and pose some kind of threat to the defense if you lose Jackson for a few games.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Actually, do you think it would make any sense if you were the Ravens GM to get a backup by signing an undrafted free agent QB out of some school that runs a wide open college offense?   Some quick guy who can throw those option passes, maybe too small for other NFL teams to be interested in him.  At least that way you'd have someone who actually could run the offense and pose some kind of threat to the defense if you lose Jackson for a few games.  

 

Yea, I think they will keep trying with backups. 

[HappyDays]

I think the fear with Jackson is that he leaves them in a sort of purgatory where they're always winning 10+ regular season games but never able to make a championship run. Which is arguably a worse position to be in than having no QB at all because it also takes you out of a good draft spot.

 

But that being said Jackson might be the most athletic QB the NFL has ever seen so if anyone can make it work it's him. If they get knocked out in the wildcard round again there will be some serious questions raised about how sustainable that style is. He missed a LOT of open receivers last night. Eventually you just have to hit those.

[Jauronimo]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think the fear with Jackson is that he leaves them in a sort of purgatory where they're always winning 10+ regular season games but never able to make a championship run. Which is arguably a worse position to be in than having no QB at all because it also takes you out of a good draft spot.

 

But that being said Jackson might be the most athletic QB the NFL has ever seen so if anyone can make it work it's him. If they get knocked out in the wildcard round again there will be some serious questions raised about how sustainable that style is. He missed a LOT of open receivers last night. Eventually you just have to hit those.

Those were brutal misses.  His biggest passing plays were glorified scramble drills.  Run around in circles until coverage gets blown. 

 

Brownies had zero contain and Jackson had open running lanes all night.  Both defenses looked like hot garbage.

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think the fear with Jackson is that he leaves them in a sort of purgatory where they're always winning 10+ regular season games but never able to make a championship run. Which is arguably a worse position to be in than having no QB at all because it also takes you out of a good draft spot.

 

But that being said Jackson might be the most athletic QB the NFL has ever seen so if anyone can make it work it's him. If they get knocked out in the wildcard round again there will be some serious questions raised about how sustainable that style is. He missed a LOT of open receivers last night. Eventually you just have to hit those.

It’s the downfall of single read progressions. It’s one look then tuck and bail. A lot of Ravens fans are mad at Roman for having two receivers in the same area-that’s by design to make the game easier for Jackson. He can’t get to a second read so you have to put everything in front of him. That’s why he only throws middle of field. It’s why they’re easy for a good defense to defend. 

[Shaw66]

36 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But that being said Jackson might be the most athletic QB the NFL has ever seen so if anyone can make it work it's him. If they get knocked out in the wildcard round again there will be some serious questions raised about how sustainable that style is. He missed a LOT of open receivers last night. Eventually you just have to hit those.

I actually, I think Murray is the most athletic QB has ever seen.  He's as fast and elusive as Jackson, and he's a real thrower.  I have the same concerns about Murray that I have about Jackson, but I think Murray is more likely to learn traditional NFL QB skills than Jackson, which would mean that his team would be so limited.   As someone pointed out, however, even though Murray is a great runner, he isn't really a running quarterback.  That isn't his game. 

[The Frankish Reich]

11 hours ago, MJS said:

I wouldn't go as far as to compare them to Marino, Kelly, and Elway. Especially Mayfield, who just seems pretty average to me. He's a legitimate starter, for sure.

 

As far as Jackson, I am just not impressed with him as a passer. But for sure he is a tremendous runner. Maybe that's enough for him to have a long, fruitful career. Who knows? But he has sucked in the playoffs two straight years, so we'll see.

 

I would prefer for him to fail because then that's one less hurdle for Allen and the Bills to jump over on their own road to a championship.

Elway and Kelly weren’t exactly Elway and Kelly (as we think of them now) in their first couple seasons. 
Of course Baker and Josh aren’t there yet. You don’t get to Canton with one good or even great season. But to me they both look like winners who’ll be around a long time. 

[Billy Claude]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Actually, do you think it would make any sense if you were the Ravens GM to get a backup by signing an undrafted free agent QB out of some school that runs a wide open college offense?   Some quick guy who can throw those option passes, maybe too small for other NFL teams to be interested in him.  At least that way you'd have someone who actually could run the offense and pose some kind of threat to the defense if you lose Jackson for a few games.  

 

 

That's what Trace McSorley is. Obviously no Lamar Jackson, but he ran a 4.57 40 and had 800 yards rushing his senior year at Penn State.  He is Johnny Manziel without the off field problems.

 

[MJS]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Elway and Kelly weren’t exactly Elway and Kelly (as we think of them now) in their first couple seasons. 
Of course Baker and Josh aren’t there yet. You don’t get to Canton with one good or even great season. But to me they both look like winners who’ll be around a long time. 

I guess my point is that all of them could be franchise QB's and stick around the league for a decade and a half, even go to Superbowls, and still not be anywhere close to that draft class.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Elway and Kelly weren’t exactly Elway and Kelly (as we think of them now) in their first couple seasons. 
Of course Baker and Josh aren’t there yet. You don’t get to Canton with one good or even great season. But to me they both look like winners who’ll be around a long time. 

Faker Mayfield 😂 😆 😝 

 

Josh is crushing Jim’s records weekly 

 

Even Jim said as much

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BillsToast]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The whole reason the Lamar debate should not be stuck on absolutes like "MVP" or "End of era" is because Lamar can win like he won last night. That isn't a one off.

 

Lamar isn't a flash in the pan. He is going to win plenty of games in the NFL. Whether you can ever win a Championship playing this way is a fair question.... I think everything else would need to be perfect - and certainly this year their offensive line hasn't been with Yanda retiring, Stanley tearing his ACL and other injuries.

 

...Because his gifts mean he is the only QB in the league that I think could win regularly completing 10-15 passes. That is the 14th time in his young career he has done it. It is not a fluke.

 

Much of this is true, but the Lamar era ends next year. Which GM wants to pay him $30 mil for a guy on his physical downside and needs that physicality just be good or decent? He won't have games like last night in 4 years from today. 

 

This is his window, he's earned it. He should be praised and he should be enjoyed. He's a great player, one of the greatest we've seen, but we have to recognize he's a short window athlete heading towards the end of greatness relatively fast. It's just a shame guys like him and great RBs won't be rewarded in FA anymore. He'll be a millionaire if he can save now, but I doubt he'll get top 10 starter money by the end of next year. If they pick up his 5th year option it's just to get meat from the bones.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, BillsToast said:

 

Much of this is true, but the Lamar era ends next year. Which GM wants to pay him $30 mil for a guy on his physical downside and needs that physicality just be good or decent? He won't have games like last night in 4 years from today. 

 

This is his window, he's earned it. He should be praised and he should be enjoyed. He's a great player, one of the greatest we've seen, but we have to recognize he's a short window athlete heading towards the end of greatness relatively fast. It's just a shame guys like him and great RBs won't be rewarded in FA anymore. He'll be a millionaire if he can save now, but I doubt he'll get top 10 starter money by the end of next year. If they pick up his 5th year option it's just to get meat from the bones.

 

Why can't he have games like last night 4 years from today? I am not sure I buy that. How much you should pay him is a really tough question - I agree. Because he is something of a unicorn in the market.

[BillsToast]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Why can't he have games like last night 4 years from today? I am not sure I buy that. How much you should pay him is a really tough question - I agree. Because he is something of a unicorn in the market.

 

Because a guy like him has to run up the middle for his big plays and if you watch him get tackled you know these guys are trying to hurt him. He has a small frame and just like Vick near 28 or 29 he can run, but not for as many yards and he lost games to injury.

 

What happens when he can only rush for 600 yards a season? Is he valuable? Not the way he passes. He needs to rush for 1,000/yr every year to have a great year. Running backs can't break 1k/season without injury after 4-5 years. He's not built like a RB. 

 

He needs an above average D, a great run game, and personally needs to run for 80 yards a game to be effective. 

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, BillsToast said:

 

Because a guy like him has to run up the middle for his big plays and if you watch him get tackled you know these guys are trying to hurt him. He has a small frame and just like Vick near 28 or 29 he can run, but not for as many yards and he lost games to injury.

 

What happens when he can only rush for 600 yards a season? Is he valuable? Not the way he passes. He needs to rush for 1,000/yr every year to have a great year. Running backs can't break 1k/season without injury after 4-5 years. He's not built like a RB. 

 

He needs an above average D, a great run game, and personally needs to run for 80 yards a game to be effective. 

 

Lamar is 23. When he hits 30 you can worry about whether he will be able to run. Until then I don't see it stopping. He is the best running QB we have ever seen. Only Vick is even close.

[NewEra]

On 9/29/2020 at 6:06 AM, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

If we lose, it’s your fault @Shaw66

i thought that to myself when you made this post.  Been thinking about it since Sunday.  
 

I propose that you change your name to JuJuShawSchuster or leave the board forever if we lose.  

[Beast]

So, when is the end of it? I mean, he is starting against us, right?