Figster Posted October 3, 2020 Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Lamar Jackson is 4-5 in his career including playoffs in games where he attempts 28 or more passes a game. He is 17-1 when he attempts fewer than 28 passes. Josh Allen is 8-10 in his career including playoffs attempting 28 or more passes in a game. But he is on a clear upward trend with that stat. And like his career as a whole so far he has improved in each season. 2018- 0-5 attempting 28 or more passes 2019- 5-5 attempting 28 or more passes 2020- 3-0 attempting 28 or more passes I love how Allen is trending upward In Lamar Jacksons case an indication the run 1st O of Greg Romans is not going as planned is a higher then normal pass attempts by Jackson IMO. Almost 50 50 in what in all likelihood was a come from behind or shoot out is really not that bad for the multi talented signal caller IMO. Need we not forget football is a team sport. 17 and 1 is impressive regardless of how you got there IMO. To some extent Jackson has been exposed to the work still needed in the passing game. The Ravens choice of OC might have something to do with it IMO. Edited October 3, 2020 by Figster
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 3, 2020 Posted October 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, Figster said: In Lamar Jacksons case an indication the run 1st O of Greg Romans is not going as planned is a higher then normal pass attempts by Jackson IMO. Almost 50 50 in what in all likelihood was a come from behind or shoot out is really not that bad for the multi talented signal caller IMO. Need we not forget football is a team sport. 17 and 1 is impressive regardless of how you got there IMO. To some extent Jackson has been exposed to the work still needed in the passing game. The Ravens choice of OC might have something to do with it IMO. This is a very interesting point. Back when we had Roman as OC and TT at QB, several former NFL players/coaches now pundits commented about the passing game being "out of sync" - Tyler's moves in the pocket being out of sync with the routes developing downfield. The implication was that the design of the passing game was not all that it should be. Of course, when Roman and Jackson were lighting the league on fire last year, if those guys saw similar they had no motivation to speak up. Just Win, baby. Everyone loves a winner. But I wonder about the design passing game with the Ravens. 1
Shaw66 Posted October 3, 2020 Author Posted October 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Are you SURE @Shaw66? As sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti, sure? I mean this board are gonna be chapped if the Bills meet the Ravens in postseason and the era ain't ended yet. And if La-mar ends up raising the Lo-mbardi before the Bills you are going to wish you only suggested a Skelton for Mario swap. I never said Lamar wasn't good or wouldn't win more games, even playoff games. I said his era was over. An era is a period time. For the past six months Lamar has been publicized as though we are in the Lamar Jackson era. That era is over. He is not going to be the dominant QB of this season, and probably no other season. Good player, will win some games. He is NOT the guy to build a winning franchise on. 1 1 2 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 3, 2020 Posted October 3, 2020 37 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I never said Lamar wasn't good or wouldn't win more games, even playoff games. I said his era was over. An era is a period time. For the past six months Lamar has been publicized as though we are in the Lamar Jackson era. That era is over. He is not going to be the dominant QB of this season, and probably no other season. Good player, will win some games. He is NOT the guy to build a winning franchise on. So sure as Kilamanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti sure then? I think it's up to Lamar and to Roman. He's had a hole in his game identified, sure. The best defenses can key on it. Can he take a step as a QB or can Roman design a counter as an OC? To Be Determined. 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) KC had the recipe to stop Lamar thrice Tenny had the recipe to stop Lamar Buffalo the recipe to stop Lamar all but 1 play Cleveland (yes that Cleveland) has beaten Lamar Chargers the recipe to stop Lamar teams can and will find a way Edited October 4, 2020 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce
Putin Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 8 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said: KC had the recipe to stop Lamar thrice Tenny had the recipe to stop Lamar Buffalo the recipe to stop Lamar all but 1 play Cleveland (yes that Cleveland) has beaten Lamar Chargers the recipe to stop Lamar teams can and will find a way Keep him in the pocket and make him beat you with his arm ... 1
TheElectricCompany Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Shaw66 said: He is NOT the guy to build a winning franchise on. The Ravens have been doing alot of losing since he became the QB1. Now that's he elite, he needs some playoff success. It comes with the territory. Edited October 4, 2020 by TheElectricCompany
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 24 minutes ago, Putin said: Keep him in the pocket and make him beat you with his arm ... aka Make him a QB
Figster Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said: aka Make him a QB Myself personally, I think the running ability of Lamar Jackson is elite. Combined with a good throwing arm IMO.( I didn' t say great) Jackson has an ability to extend and make plays other more traditional pocket QB's can't IMO. The more I watch Lamar Jackson the more I like what I see... Edited October 4, 2020 by Figster 2
Putin Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 26 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said: aka Make him a QB EXACTLY !!! 1
Putin Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 10 minutes ago, Figster said: Myself personally, I think the running ability of Lamar Jackson is elite. Combined with a good throwing arm IMO.( I didn' t say great) Jackson has an ability to extend plays other more traditional pocket QB's can't IMO. The more I watch Lamar Jackson the more I like what I see... Elite, Great , Good QB’s when are behind in the 4th Q are able to put a good drive and win a game , kind of like Josh did against the Rams , I haven’t seen Lamar do that ONCE yet 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 1 hour ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said: KC had the recipe to stop Lamar thrice Tenny had the recipe to stop Lamar Buffalo the recipe to stop Lamar all but 1 play Cleveland (yes that Cleveland) has beaten Lamar Chargers the recipe to stop Lamar teams can and will find a way It's an important point that a team can have the recipe, but they still can't cook worth a darn if they don't have the ingredients. Or at least enough of the ingredients. 2
Buffalo Barbarian Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 On 9/29/2020 at 9:06 AM, Shaw66 said: I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either. I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses. The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time: You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line. The reason is simple: If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places. When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. You could see the problem almost immediately last night. One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field. They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected. The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep. The defense tightened and tightened. Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson. That's a bad trade. The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack. You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks. Why? Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark. (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.) Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws. Jackson couldn't do that last night. If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer. But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him. So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there. It was all pretty obvious watching last night. Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws. Jackson doesn't. Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game. He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills. Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson. McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer. They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo. Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited. I think they're wasting their time. Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games. Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do. Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too. What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh. Bills are heading down the right road. I dont want to right anybody off yet but he needs to become a better passer or he wont amount to much. Haven't seen Murphy once so cant say about him.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) On 9/29/2020 at 9:16 AM, TheElectricCompany said: Say it with me..."We don't have to tear down Lamar, to prop Josh up". Lamar is a phenomenal player and deserves his place at the "elite of the elite" table. Josh is well on his way to earning a seat. Both of these things can exist simultaneously. Frankly, I find this take to be garbage. "The end of an era" because the MVP had one bad game? Get outta here... Shaw - you come for the king, you better not miss. He's not elite, not even close, winning the MVP was a joke. Like i said above im not writing him off but he has a ways to go as a passer. On 9/29/2020 at 9:23 AM, ALLEN-2-DIGGS-TD!! said: I never bought into the Jackson hype way over rated. I do think that kid the Chargers have is going to be special. Reminds me so much of JA. i thought the same thing, but as a Josh Allen light type as far as physical gifts go. Edited October 4, 2020 by Buffalo Barbarian 1
Putin Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 32 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: It's an important point that a team can have the recipe, but they still can't cook worth a darn if they don't have the ingredients. Or at least enough of the ingredients. Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 26 minutes ago, Figster said: Myself personally, I think the running ability of Lamar Jackson is elite. Combined with a good throwing arm IMO.( I didn' t say great) Jackson has an ability to extend and make plays other more traditional pocket QB's can't IMO. The more I watch Lamar Jackson the more I like what I see... It is elite, and he's a much better passer than many folks give him credit for. But he needs to expand his throwing vocabulary to make those sideline throws. It's like Josh last year. Josh couldn't make the deep throw. So teams would choke us and blitz zero and dare him to beat us deep. So far this year, Josh has taken the dare. Next. 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said: He's not elite, not even close, winning the MVP was a joke. Like i said above im not writing him off but he has a ways to go as a passer. It's NFL "most valuable player" not "most valuable QB". It includes his contributions as both a rusher and a passer. When you look at the value and impact a single player had on driving a team to success, how can you see Lamar as a "Joke" MVP? The guy had 4,333 yds of offense - 1206 rushing, 3127 passing. 43 rushing and passing TDs. That's a huge level of offensive contribution You can come up with other candidates, sure. But to call Lamar winning MVP a "joke? C'mon, Man! 6
GreggTX Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 Jackson is what you get when you upgrade Tyrod. 3
starrymessenger Posted October 4, 2020 Posted October 4, 2020 Right now I'd say that Lamar is easier to defend than Allen. The reason is simply that Jackson's arm is maybe not strong enuf to consistently make those shallow or deeper outside the hash power throws. This limits the Raven's offence, including even those things that they do really well. I think the Ravens need to develop this part of his game assuming the talent is there to be developed (I'm not sure that ability is there because I don't recall ever seeing it). Three TE sets feasting in the middle of the field is lovely but you need more to your passing game than that when the going gets tough later in the year. I don't recall ever having entered the Lamar Jackson era. It's just another good Roman offence such as we've seen before with a player uniquely capable of executing it to near perfection assuming a very good supporting cast (which they have). Having lost three times to Mahomes in that Chief's offence is no disgrace. Patrick Mahomes is maybe the best football player on the planet right now. The Chief's offence is completely diversified, especially with the addition of the LSU RB. The multiple Andrews drops sure didn't help Lamar in that game too. Jackson looks like he's going to be a very good NFL QB for a long time. Whether he will be great remains to be seen. IMO as good as the Raven's O is now with Lamar &Co I don't think it will be good enuf in the crunch later in the year. A very good playoff worthy NFL D running some version of the cover 3 scheme should give him lots of trouble. How much of that is Lamar and how much Roman I don't know. 2
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