The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Hey, old man.   I'll give you a simple test to see if you really think I'm premature.

 

Would you trade Josh Allen even up for Lamar Jackson?   

 

I know, right now, that Josh Allen will have a better career than Lamar Jackson.  There is no way I'd make that trade.  Why?  Because I'm pretty sure that 15 years from now we will not be talking about Lamar Jackson as one of the all time greats, and there's a good chance we will be having that conversation about Allen. 

 

Of course, if you and I are having that conversation, it'll be in some old folks home.  

I think the Vick comparison is about right.  Vick had a better arm, clearly,   HE was a great runner, but he didn't have Lamar's elusiveness.  But I agree, VIck's career is likely Jackson's upside.  

Hey Shaw, I'm with you on Josh, and I'd take him right now over Allen.  But I read your OP to say that Jackson would never get there and I'm not so sure about that just yet.  I think he'll have a very productive career.  

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Good point wrt OJ.

The game has changed to the degree that the running back position has been seriously diminished in importance. Don't misunderstand, I love a good running game and a player like Derek Henry is very exciting to me, but today fans seem to want high power passing games and Arena League scores.

Old timers like us tend to prefer balanced offenses and strong defenses.

 

Even in today's league, give me a great O line and a Rb or two that can punish the other team and I'll take my chances.

[badassgixxer05]

Hes a system QB. If teams figure out a way to stop that system then hes F'd. Its not a bad thing to say. Brady made a HOF GOAT career being a system QB. No one was ever able to stop that system(for the most part... #Giants...).  Playing from behind isnt their game. They pound the ball (opens up pass when you try to stop the run), stay ahead and play good D. We saw the same thing when Roman was here. When we got down, did anyone ever thing Tyrod Taylor was going to lead us on a miracle game winning drive? No. Teams played tight man/cover D and he didn't have the arm to over come that. Neither does Jackson. Hes special at what he does, but he will never be a gun slinger lead from behind QB and should never be expected to. Its just not his game.

[MJS]

20 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Even in today's league, give me a great O line and a Rb or two that can punish the other team and I'll take my chances.

Running the ball is still as effective as ever, but the problem is with such a style it is difficult to score quickly. And therefore, it is difficult to come back in a game where you are down on the scoreboard, especially if you need to do that late in the 4th quarter.

 

The passing game allows you to more effectively manage the clock (because incompletions stop the clock) and pick up chunk plays (averaging 5 yards a rush is good, but averaging 5 yards a pass is really bad. Pass plays generally pick up more yards).

 

The Titans are a good example of a run first team. All their games are incredibly close and go down to the wire. They don't have the type of offense (generally) that allows them to build a comfortable lead. Part of that is because of their dependence on the run game.

 

I also think it is more important to have a good oline if you depend on the run. You can mitigate oline weaknesses with a quick passing game. Hard to do that with a run first offense.

 

I prefer an offense that can do both.

Edited October 2, 2020 by MJS

[TheElectricCompany]

12 minutes ago, badassgixxer05 said:

Hes a system QB.

 

I was waiting for this one - I'm surprised it took this long.

 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

What a petty thread.  Why does this board have a hard on for putting down a 23 year old MVP?  I know this is crazy but you can be thrilled with Allen and not have to put another player down.  A few things. 
 

1 - Jackson was awful Monday.  It seems if you get the lead on the Ravens, it’s a struggle for them to come back.  He needs to prove he can do that.

 

2 - his receivers suck besides Brown

 

3 - if Josh Allen wins the MVP this year and then in game 3 loses to the SB champs with a generational qb, if someone started a thread called the Josh Allen era is over, we’d think they were a loser right?  What is the point of this?

 

without a doubt, Allen has been the better qb.  So why not be happy that through 3 games, our guy is outperforming last years MVP rather than knock Jackson down?  Seems petty and bad mojo.

 

You never disappoint! 

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

1 minute ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

I was waiting for this one - I'm surprised it took this long.

 

 

He's the definition of a system QB.  He's just the best ever at running that system.

 

 

[TheElectricCompany]

2 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

He's the definition of a system QB.  He's just the best ever at running that system.

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2019/07/09/system-quarterbacks-list-tom-brady-peyton-manning-joe-montana-brett-favre-mike-vick/

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

3 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2019/07/09/system-quarterbacks-list-tom-brady-peyton-manning-joe-montana-brett-favre-mike-vick/

 

So you agree with what I said.

[badassgixxer05]

2 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

So you agree with what I said.

Im not sure what else hes trying to say. 😀

 

I said it was fine that hes a system QB. Lots of system QBs have won in this league. Lets not call Peyton Manning a system QB though because he decided to play another season when he should have been retired(funny enough it worked though. lol).

[GunnerBill]

The comparison to Vick... I mean I get it... but I'd argue Jackson has already performed at a level Vick didn't reach. Vick had basically 7 years as a starter in Atlanta and then Philly. He only had 20 or more passing touchdowns twice (once 20 and once 21), he only once completed more than 60% of his passes and he only had fewer than 10 INTs twice too (and NEVER when he played all 16 games). Even his best rushing season was less productive than Lamar's 2019.

 

I already think Lamar is a better NFL QB than I ever thought Vick was. Lamar could have significant regression from 2019 in 2020 and still outperform any of Michael Vick's NFL seasons. I understand the comparison in that they are genuine running Quarterbacks but Lamar while not having every throw in his arsenal is better at the ones he does have than Vick ever was.

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The comparison to Vick... I mean I get it... but I'd argue Jackson has already performed at a level Vick didn't reach. Vick had basically 7 years as a starter in Atlanta and then Philly. He only had 20 or more passing touchdowns twice (once 20 and once 21), he only once completed more than 60% of his passes and he only had fewer than 10 INTs twice too (and NEVER when he played all 16 games). Even his best rushing season was less productive than Lamar's 2019.

 

I already think Lamar is a better NFL QB than I ever thought Vick was. Lamar could have significant regression from 2019 in 2020 and still outperform any of Michael Vick's NFL seasons. I understand the comparison in that they are genuine running Quarterbacks but Lamar while not having every throw in his arsenal is better at the ones he does have than Vick ever was.

 

Yes, exactly.  Lamar is great, better than Vick, but he has obvious limitations.  Maybe he will get better at those limitations, but he hasn't shown it yet.  The idea that he can't both be Great and have these limitations is a kind of blind censoring of the obvious, imo.

[TheElectricCompany]

27 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

So you agree with what I said.

 

It's a funny label  - every smart team will try and put their QB into a successful system, or build the system around them. I see it more applicable to someone like Case Keenum or Ryan Fitzpatrick, going from "fair" to "good" in favorable situations,  but I find it bonkers to suggest you can scheme your way to the elite conversation, as well as an unanimous MVP.

 

No elite player exists in a vacuum. They are assisted by playmakers, coaches and yes, a favorable scheme. Lamar certainly capitalized on his circumstance, but he is not "propped up"

Edited October 2, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Rc2catch]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The comparison to Vick... I mean I get it... but I'd argue Jackson has already performed at a level Vick didn't reach. Vick had basically 7 years as a starter in Atlanta and then Philly. He only had 20 or more passing touchdowns twice (once 20 and once 21), he only once completed more than 60% of his passes and he only had fewer than 10 INTs twice too (and NEVER when he played all 16 games). Even his best rushing season was less productive than Lamar's 2019.

 

I already think Lamar is a better NFL QB than I ever thought Vick was. Lamar could have significant regression from 2019 in 2020 and still outperform any of Michael Vick's NFL seasons. I understand the comparison in that they are genuine running Quarterbacks but Lamar while not having every throw in his arsenal is better at the ones he does have than Vick ever was.

They do have one other HUGE comparison not many might remember. They pepper tight ends with targets. Alge Crumpler = Marc Andrews. Vick could throw 50 yard precision passes sometimes but could never hit a check down with accuracy to save his life. 
 

I think you’re spot on with your  comparison. I bet Vick watches those Baltimore games and wishes the read option was implemented more in his day. Vick spent a good time of his Atlanta days trying to be a drop back quarterback with very little misdirection in that offense. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

They do have one other HUGE comparison not many might remember. They pepper tight ends with targets. Alge Crumpler = Marc Andrews. Vick could throw 50 yard precision passes sometimes but could never hit a check down with accuracy to save his life. 
 

I think you’re spot on with your  comparison. I bet Vick watches those Baltimore games and wishes the read option was implemented more in his day. Vick spent a good time of his Atlanta days trying to be a drop back quarterback with very little misdirection in that offense. 

 

Agree - it was made harder by Vick by the fact the NFL was trying to pigeon hole him into a scheme not really designed for him. By the time he kind of got the hang of it his body had started to fail him. But Jackson has already surpassed him as an NFL Quarterback IMO. And as I say, even with a significant regression by Lamar in 2020 he likely still puts up a statistically superior season to any of Vick's.

 

While I think Vick makes some sense as a comparison for the "floor" I struggle with a comparison for Jackson's ceiling. The NFL is better set up for a player like Lamar than it has even been before so it is very likely in my opinion that he has a significantly better career than those guys who might be described as similar dual threat types who came before him.

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

1 minute ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

It's a funny label  - every smart team will try and put their QB into a successful system, or build the system around them. I see it more applicable to someone like Case Keenum or Ryan Fitzpatrick, going from "fair" to "good" in favorable situations,  but I find it bonkers to suggest you can scheme your way to a MVP.

 

No elite player exists in a vacuum. They are assisted by playmakers, coaches and yes, a favorable scheme. I don't see Lamar as a player who is propped up by circumstance.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but Lamar is unique.  The qualities that make him a unicorn are the same reasons why you need the right scheme to take full advantage.  I doubt you think he could be as effective as JA in our offense (correct me if I'm wrong).

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

It's a funny label  - every smart team will try and put their QB into a successful system, or build the system around them. I see it more applicable to someone like Case Keenum or Ryan Fitzpatrick, going from "fair" to "good" in favorable situations,  but I find it bonkers to suggest you can scheme your way to the elite conversation, as well as an unanimous MVP.

 

No elite player exists in a vacuum. They are assisted by playmakers, coaches and yes, a favorable scheme. Lamar certainly capitalized on his circumstance, but he is not "propped up"

 

It is the Jared Goff argument too "whoooa system Quarterback!!!" Yes. It's a great system for him. But his coach and that system isn't going anywhere any time soon so what does it matter whether Jared Goff could run Bill Belichick's system or Andy Reid's system? He runs Sean McVay's pretty darn well. The same with Lamar. Baltimore has settled coaching. Would things change if Greg Roman left? Yea, maybe. But for now that doesn't matter. He is running the system he is employed to run.

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

It's a funny label  - every smart team will try and put their QB into a successful system, or build the system around them. I see it more applicable to someone like Case Keenum or Ryan Fitzpatrick, going from "fair" to "good" in favorable situations,  but I find it bonkers to suggest you can scheme your way to the elite conversation, as well as an unanimous MVP.

 

No elite player exists in a vacuum. They are assisted by playmakers, coaches and yes, a favorable scheme. Lamar certainly capitalized on his circumstance, but he is not "propped up"

Jackson had 176 rushing attempts. It's not a knock to suggest his scheme has disproportionately effected his success.

[TheElectricCompany]

8 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

 

Yeah, but Lamar is unique.  The qualities that make him a unicorn are the same reasons why you need the right scheme to take full advantage.  I doubt you think he could be as effective as JA in our offense (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Pure hypothetical of course, but I think he'd be an excellent QB here, as would Josh in Baltimore. Fair to assume they wouldn't be as productive as they are in current situations, but they'd still be really good.

 

All players need the right scheme to flourish, but elite talent transcends any scheme. For example, any team with a dual threat QB can run a shotgun read option, but nobody is as deadly running it as Lamar. You can floor the line on defense,  but he can break contain in his sleep.

 

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Jackson had 176 rushing attempts. It's not a knock to suggest his scheme has disproportionately effected his success.

 

176 for 1200 yards in insane, and I doubt we'll see that again. Going over 1000 again would be unprecedented.

As he grows as a passer, I'd estimate he settles in to 500-900 yards a year

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

176 for 1200 yards in insane, and I doubt we'll see that again. Going over 1000 again would be unprecedented.

As he grows as a passer, I'd estimate he settles in to 500-900 yards a year

He is a phenomenal runner. I argue he is a limited passer. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

What a petty thread.  Why does this board have a hard on for putting down a 23 year old MVP?  I know this is crazy but you can be thrilled with Allen and not have to put another player down.  A f

Because people rush to judgement.

 

Trent Dilfer won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

Mark Rypien won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?
Jeff Hostetler won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

 

Will LJ thrive w/o Roman. 
That is the key question