The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[WideNine]

6 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

I found this paragraph to be a bit homer-ish....."He can't throw like Josh"?  Allen has a "better" arm?  What throw does Josh make that Mahomes can't or doesn't make?  ....Better Arm...both can launch it.  if we are talking arm strength....they both have elite arm strength.  ....then last sentence...LOL...Mahomes "can't learn to throw like Josh"  ....uh....OH NO!  my MVP, and Super Bowl MVP apparently can't throw like Josh Allen....man...what a bummer!

 

 

Most offensive coordinators are able to dial up some plays where guys end up open.  Daboll has his share of these.  Mahomes often finds and hits these targets when they are "wide open"  He also hits guys when they aren't wide open and throws them open etc....it's good when the QB does both.

 

 

Uh......  Josh Allen 16 of 39 TD passes, inside 10 yards...that's 41%   Lamar, 21/46 45%  not exactly the stat you want to be trying to use here.

 

 

The blueprint is out there.  You must get pressure on Mahomes with your front 4 consistantly, and you give a bunch of different looks with man/zone combos that make mahomes have to process long enough for your pass rush to move him.  The Chargers are a team that has given us (KC) fits with this for years.  The 49ers were able to do it in the SB...KC still won....but that's how you slow Mahomes. 

 

I haven't seen enough of you guys to know yet, but if your front 4  can't get it done....that's not good for you.

 

 

Happy Days makes an astute observation here.  Mahomes was 16/19 with 3 TDS and something like 250 yards VS the Blitz against hte Ravens.  Blitzing mahomes is a BAD idea.  he kills blitzs.  You need the front 4 to win on their own.

 

 

 

KC more than doubled them in yardage etc.  While the ravens did come withing 7 points in the 3rd Q when the score became 27-20, KC had some miscues that should have opened up a bigger score....missed XP, missed FG, that's 4 points, fumbled inside 20 on first drive of Q3.  Didn't convert on a 3rd and 1, then 4th and 1, TO on downs.  Score was closer than actual play indicated.  KC D only gave up 13 points.    Same thing last year.  KC won 33-25.  KC was up 33-10 going into Q 4.  Game was never in doubt....Balt got garbage time TD including last TD with like 30 seconds left in the game....and there were 2 4th downs in the 4th Q where Lamar litteraly was being sacked and just lobbed up prayers...and they caught both.....score was much closer than the game actually was. 

 

It wasn't that close.

 

Was kind of wondering when you were going to make an appearance.

 

 

 

[DJB]

12 hours ago, Golden Goat said:

How good did it feel to type that? Was it weird? 

 

 

Felt like this reading it. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

17 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

From Baltimore Sun this month: 

This year, Jackson’s AFC-leading accuracy belies the difficulty of his throws: According to the NFL’s Next Gen Stats, he’s throwing the ball farther downfield than ever before (9.4 intended air yards per pass, No. 9 overall). Despite ranking No. 29 in the NFL in attempts, according to Pro-Football-Reference, Jackson ranks No. 13 in completed air yards. As a runner and a passer, the Ravens refuse to coddle him.

Jackson’s precociousness as a runner and leader has been well documented. But even some of the NFL’s most decorated passers didn’t find a groove as quickly as he has. Jackson’s accuracy through his first 24 starts (65%) trumps that of Tom Brady (64.8%), Aaron Rodgers (63.4%), Russell Wilson (63%) and Drew Brees (59.7%).

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-ravens-lamar-jackson-accuracy-20200924-wjepc7fzcbdzhn6stovijrogge-story.html

 

How about some video? Tell me how this guy is a limited passer and how he can't make plays from the pocket. 

 

From Jay Glazier this offseason: 

"He works his butt off, so I think he's going to always stay a step ahead. The thing not talked about enough with Jackson is his jump in accuracy. He worked so hard to get more accurate. It wasn't a little more accurate—it was a lot more accurate. Coaches around the league marvel about his accuracy and how much he jumped last year. He has gone through the ceiling because of his work ethic."

 

Put some RESPECT on this guys name. 

 

Eh, we will see. So far Lamar has average passing numbers and great rushing numbers for a QB. Historically players with Lamar’s skill set don’t win it all. The only player I know of to drastically change his style of play from a runner to a passer is Michael Vick once he went to Philly and played for Andy Reid. 

[Green Lightning]

11 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

I agree with the point about pocket passing. I think that's pretty obvious.

 

But Jackson is another Vick. I don't think his era is over until he gets injured or too old.

Pretty much where I am on Lamarr. You will have success with him until he pops a knee. I don't think you win a SB with him. I disagree with Shaw66 on Kyler Murray. That's a talented kid with a live arm. Short, yes but he can make all the throws and he's mobile as Hell. Smart to boot. He looks to have a nice career.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Penfield45 said:

This might be one of the dumbest threads ever created in this site 

 

Oh Heckin Noes.  Not even Top Twenty

 

 

[Rc2catch]

1 hour ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

 

 

Uh......  Josh Allen 16 of 39 TD passes, inside 10 yards...that's 41%   Lamar, 21/46 45%  not exactly the stat you want to be trying to use here.

 

 

What does Allen have to do with anything I said? Allen is not an MVP nor are we discussing if Allen can maintain playing at an MVP level. 
 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

I found this paragraph to be a bit homer-ish....."He can't throw like Josh"?  Allen has a "better" arm?  What throw does Josh make that Mahomes can't or doesn't make?  ....Better Arm...both can launch it.  if we are talking arm strength....they both have elite arm strength.  ....then last sentence...LOL...Mahomes "can't learn to throw like Josh"  ....uh....OH NO!  my MVP, and Super Bowl MVP apparently can't throw like Josh Allen....man...what a bummer!

 

 

 

Zero -  I think I pretty much agree with you.   You maybe misunderstood what I said, but I didn't say it very well.    Here's what I meant:

 

Mahomes is a great thrower, I agree.  Way above league average.  By better arm I meant that Allen can deliver the ball with more velocity and with less physical exertion than Mahomes can.  He just has a stronger arm.  Doesn't mean Mahomes has a bad arm.  He doesn't.  But there are throws that Allen can make physically with less arm motion than Mahomes can.  I think that's true, and that's an advantage for Allen.  

 

Then I said, what I think is also true and I'm sure you agree with, that Mahomes is clearly the better field general.  He runs what's probably a more complicated offense flawlessly.   He doesn't get flustered.  He's way ahead of Allen there; I think Allen's already pretty good at it, but Mahomes was better as a rookie than Allen is now.   

 

Then, what I meant by my conclusion was that it's possible for Allen, I expect Allen, to continue to improve as a field general - that he'll be able to get as good at it as Mahomes is, but Mahomes will never be able to flip the ball downfield with pace and accuracy the way Allen is throwing.  

 

In any event, I wasn't trying to say Allen is as good as Mahomes.  For one season, I'd take Mahomes in a heartbeat.  But I will say that I have a lot of confidence that within the next few years Allen will be a premier QB mentioned along with two or three others.   I expect Mahomes will continue to be one of those.  

 

Thanks for responding. 

[Putin]

14 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

The Ravens’ offense just isn’t designed to play from behind.  They can’t score a ton of points in a hurry, that’s not how they’re built.  Once they got in a hole last night it was all but over.

How many comeback wins does Jackson have ? I don’t believe they won a single game when they were behind !!

[Putin]

1 hour ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Eh, we will see. So far Lamar has average passing numbers and great rushing numbers for a QB. Historically players with Lamar’s skill set don’t win it all. The only player I know of to drastically change his style of play from a runner to a passer is Michael Vick once he went to Philly and played for Andy Reid. 

Micheal Vick was is a 100 times better passer then Lamar is 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

 

Watching the game last night, I can't say this thought didn't also go through my head too.  But I also think one game is way to early to say this is the end.  He did win the MVP last year and looked good ***** it.  Have defenses figured him out, maybe.  His style may work against weak teams, but when facing a team as good, he's in trouble.  Will be interesting to see how the Balt. NE game goes whenever they play.  In many ways he's like Allen except without the arm.

 

 

[bobobonators]

I like reading your weekly recaps Shaw, but this one is kinda nutty. 
 

The kid is 23yrs old, has a 21-4 record in the NFL, and just won an MVP last year. And youre writing about his demise? 
 

Tough crowd. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by bobobonators

[Richard Noggin]

19 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Zero -  I think I pretty much agree with you.   You maybe misunderstood what I said, but I didn't say it very well.    Here's what I meant:

 

Mahomes is a great thrower, I agree.  Way above league average.  By better arm I meant that Allen can deliver the ball with more velocity and with less physical exertion than Mahomes can.  He just has a stronger arm.  Doesn't mean Mahomes has a bad arm.  He doesn't.  But there are throws that Allen can make physically with less arm motion than Mahomes can.  I think that's true, and that's an advantage for Allen.  

 

Then I said, what I think is also true and I'm sure you agree with, that Mahomes is clearly the better field general.  He runs what's probably a more complicated offense flawlessly.   He doesn't get flustered.  He's way ahead of Allen there; I think Allen's already pretty good at it, but Mahomes was better as a rookie than Allen is now.   

 

Then, what I meant by my conclusion was that it's possible for Allen, I expect Allen, to continue to improve as a field general - that he'll be able to get as good at it as Mahomes is, but Mahomes will never be able to flip the ball downfield with pace and accuracy the way Allen is throwing.  

 

In any event, I wasn't trying to say Allen is as good as Mahomes.  For one season, I'd take Mahomes in a heartbeat.  But I will say that I have a lot of confidence that within the next few years Allen will be a premier QB mentioned along with two or three others.   I expect Mahomes will continue to be one of those.  

 

Thanks for responding. 

 

This is a difficult debate to quantify. I feel like Mahomes and Allen have essentially the same degree of raw arm talent, but that Mahomes has spent years refining that 3/4, abbreviated motion that we're suddenly seeing out of Allen. The same kind of motion we see out of Rodgers when he's throwing darts. Something about it allows for a virtuosic combination of touch/arc, velocity, and quick release that conventional (over-the-top, sporting-L) throwers cannot match. 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

This is a difficult debate to quantify. I feel like Mahomes and Allen have essentially the same degree of raw arm talent, but that Mahomes has spent years refining that 3/4, abbreviated motion that we're suddenly seeing out of Allen. The same kind of motion we see out of Rodgers when he's throwing darts. Something about it allows for a virtuosic combination of touch/arc, velocity, and quick release that conventional (over-the-top, sporting-L) throwers cannot match. 

Yeah Mahomes has that. But Allen has this overhand flick that Mahomes can't match.  He can get the ball downfield effortlessly, and that's important i. The pocket under pressure.  

 

I think those two stand out above everyone else, today.  Rodgers a few years ago, but not so much now. .  

[TheElectricCompany]

I want to see some of these throws that Allen can make, but Mahomes can't. 

If there is one thing Mahomes has done in 3 seasons, its rewritten the book of what throws are possible. 

And to get back to Lamar, he's got a gorgeous deep flick pass.

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Zerovoltz]

2 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

What does Allen have to do with anything I said? Allen is not an MVP nor are we discussing if Allen can maintain playing at an MVP level. 
 

 

I assume you are bashing Lamar for throwing a "high" number of short TD passes....most TD passes are short....becaus they are easier...if you look at all QB's they all have many more short TD throws than long ones.

[Putin]

Allen still has way to go till he reaches his ceiling and when he does ( oh man oh boy ) 

[mannc]

8 hours ago, Green Lightning said:

Pretty much where I am on Lamarr. You will have success with him until he pops a knee. I don't think you win a SB with him. I disagree with Shaw66 on Kyler Murray. That's a talented kid with a live arm. Short, yes but he can make all the throws and he's mobile as Hell. Smart to boot. He looks to have a nice career.

Correct on Murray...He’s more Russ Wilson than Lamar Jackson.

[atlbillsfan1975]

7 hours ago, Putin said:

Micheal Vick was is a 100 times better passer then Lamar is 

If you are referring to Vick’s time in Philly, then yes he was a much improved passer. Michael threw the ball similar to Lamar for the first 6 years he was in Atlanta. Lots of force, very little touch.

[HOUSE]

I went to the Ravens board and I can't find anything on this subject 🤪

[BurpleBull]

This thread is kinda ridiculous.

 

Mahomes doesn't need his arm to be any better than it already is, he's already won a Super Bowl and been named league MVP all before the age of 25; who cares if Allen's arm strength rates out at 99 in Madden and Mahomes a 98?

 

Don't see the point of this diatribe against the league's other MVP...almost reads like it was put together by an impassioned, semi-disgruntled Ravens' fan with the intent of e-mailing it to Ozzie Newsome and the Baltimore front office to voice his concern...but it really reads like Lamar Jackson's success and the very idea of Kyler Murray succeeding strikes a special nerve in you.