The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't think it will help much. Jackson can throw the TE seam w/anticipation because it's a straight read and always a mismatch. There aren't a lot of routes that true WR1s excel at (versus JAG wideouts) that Jackson can also exploit. He can hit spots between cover2 but you don't need a top wideout for those go routes, that's why Brown was so successful getting downfield. Jackson's reads from the pocket aren't sophisticated enough to take advantage of everything a top WR can do.

 

He needs to learn the position. They have set that offense up to maximize his effectiveness which has had the curious additional effect of stunting his growth at the position. They need to bring him along because he is not going to improve playing zone read/option and single read sets.

 

I think a wide receiver who wins on his route immediately would help though. Because while he might not get there by reading it, seeing a guy wide open with his hand in the air and a window to fit the ball will help build his confidence throwing to other areas of the field. 

 

I do agree they have sacrificed a little bit his development for being contenders now. And they have been stuck in that catch 22. It is part of the reason I was banging on last season about putting the game in Josh Allen's hands for better or worse rather than always just taking the approach to best win the game and running Singletary 25 times.the Bills have developed Josh the right way. You don't develop a passer by giving him experience handing off to a back. Equally with Lamar you don't develop him without occasionally asking him to play as a conventional drop back passer rather than on boots, options and rollouts with half field reads.

2 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

They drafted Marquis "Holywood" Brown I think to be that guy, not sure if he will ever get to that level.

 

I loved Brown's shifty-ness and he does have another serious gear when it comes to RAC, but I thought his hands were suspect and in IMO he would disappear in big games. You want that #1 guy to be the kind of player that can be your go-to, who rises to the occasion, excels in adversity, who can enforce his will on the opposing team; you see that quality in Diggs that forces teams to say "we cannot cover this guy 1:1" when they roll the tape.

 

I don't believe draft assessments are the end of the story, but they often are right in regards to where a player is at and what that player will need to change to take the next step in the pros. I agree with you that the Ravens still need that clear #1 receiver.

 

 

I don't believe they did. I think they drafted Brown to be a deep threat to try and back teams off the line of scrimmage. Of course impossible to know which of us are right but that was my take on that pick from the get go. And if they did draft him to be a true #1 then I agree with you that was foolish because based on his college tape that was a longshot.

 

[SoTier]

5 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

The Ravens’ offense just isn’t designed to play from behind.  They can’t score a ton of points in a hurry, that’s not how they’re built.  Once they got in a hole last night it was all but over.

 

Agree.   Last night's game is less about what Jackson supposedly can't do and more about what the Ravens can't do because of the way the team is built.   They are a run first team that depends upon their defense to shut down high powered offenses so that their own offense can dominate the game with its run power.   Last night the Ravens defense got shredded from the get-go because they kept trying to blitz Mahomes -- probably a coaching mistake -- while the Chiefs defense was very effective in bottling up the Ravens on the ground.   Moreover, it was less that Jackson couldn't pass well as too many of his receivers dropped passes at key points early in the game before the game got out of hand.

[Big Blitz]

5 hours ago, scribo said:

Lamar Jackson's big tests this season will come against the Steelers. Can a division team solve him? If so, he's moving back into the pack. If Pitt cannot, the Raven's only division rival, then Jackson is going to stay in the limelight.

 

 

His big tests are when he's down by 10 or more points in a game.

 

Because if I'm not mistaken he's 0-5 in those games.  

[QCity]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Bills fans: “We have to be patient with our young QB” 

 

Also Bills Fans after one Lamar Jackson game: “ His career is over”

 

[Mr. WEO]

6 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

35 yards passing at the end of the 1st half.  Yikes.

In fairness to Lamar, he doesn't have the kind of weapons we have or KC has.  

Josh TD to Diggs Sunday was a Lamar type throw with that wrist flick. He didnt have time or the space to wind up so he just whipped that forearm.  Awesome.

 

 

.

 

Posters would be losing their minds if Josh had Jackson’s skill position roster instead of what Allen has now.

 

6 hours ago, BillsVet said:

I'll give the league's 2019 MVP more than 1 game to demonstrate he can no longer be dynamic. 

 

Josh is the better passer of the football right now and may always be.  What is funny are the people who pronounce something is so with regard to players, league trends after one or a handful of games.  It takes a much bigger sample size to identify what is happening across the NFL or how a young player does or does not progress.

It was a rough time for the kid.  Receivers can’t catch didn’t help and Defense was a mess all night.

 

Give it few more games before we see how threads like this age.

[Shaw66]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think a wide receiver who wins on his route immediately would help though. Because while he might not get there by reading it, seeing a guy wide open with his hand in the air and a window to fit the ball will help build his confidence throwing to other areas of the field. 

 

I do agree they have sacrificed a little bit his development for being contenders now. And they have been stuck in that catch 22. It is part of the reason I was banging on last season about putting the game in Josh Allen's hands for better or worse rather than always just taking the approach to best win the game and running Singletary 25 times.the Bills have developed Josh the right way. You don't develop a passer by giving him experience handing off to a back. Equally with Lamar you don't develop him without occasionally asking him to play as a conventional drop back passer rather than on boots, options and rollouts with half field reads.

 

I don't believe they did. I think they drafted Brown to be a deep threat to try and back teams off the line of scrimmage. Of course impossible to know which of us are right but that was my take on that pick from the get go. And if they did draft him to be a true #1 then I agree with you that was foolish because based on his college tape that was a longshot.

 

First, I gotta say it's pretty interesting that I post a random though about Jackson in the morning, go away, and when I come back there are 12 pages of comments.   Love it. 

 

Gunner, I agree that if Jackson had a Diggs or other serious #1, he'd be better off, and I agree (as I've said) that he has to learn to be a pocket passer.  He didn't look like one last night. 

 

But I think the problem is bigger than that.   I think if you decide that your offense is going to feature Jackson's running ability, if you're going to try to win by having him rush for 1000 yards a season, then you necessarily have to sacrifice the deep passing game.  If you're going to have a run-oriented offense, especially with your QB as a feature back, you need wideouts dedicated to blocking.   They aren't useful blocking 30 yards downfield; you have to keep them near the line of scrimmage.   I think when you do that to your offense, you're telling the defense they need to play two deep safeties, because no one's going to be running around back there.  The defense packs the shallow and mid range zones with a single high free safety, and the offense fins itself trying to beat 10 defenders all within 20 yards of the line of scrimmage.   

 

The easy passing option for a running QB is when he rolls out.  But when he rolls out, he signals the defense that it only has to defend half the field.   

 

The a big part of the reason Bills fans have been saying Josh needed options was that the Bills needed to spread the defense and make the decision making easier.  

 

As I said, KC's offense is the exact opposite of Baltimore's, and the difference was obvious.   Mahomes had a lot of easy throws to make, 15-20 yards downfiield to guys wide open.  We s

saw very little of that from Jackson, and we saw very little of it when the Ravens played the Bills last year.  

 

The attack has to come from the pocket.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Lamar has a total of 4 regular season losses. 3 of them are to Mahomes. Maybe we calm down a bit. 

 

 

 

KC knows how to defend him. 
 

Mahomes scores more points 

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Give it few more games before we see how threads like this age.

You're missing the point.  Sure, Jackson may light up a bunch of teams again this year.  The problem isn't that he isn't talented.  The problem is that the offense is one-dimensional, and first the good defenses and eventually all the defenses will learn to stop it, just like KC did last night.  

 

What I'm saying is that Jackson is not a long-term premier QB, at least not until he learns to play like Brees and Wilson, small guys who play from the pocket.  It was obvious last night that Jackson can't play from the pocket anything like a top QB.  

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

The Bills knew how to defend him last season too. All but one blown play. 
 

 

[TheElectricCompany]

4 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

The Bills knew how to defend him last season too. All but one blown play.

 

Aside from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

The ravens just blitzed the crap out of allen, and he failed the test.

 

True, this is something Allen will still need to prove he can beat. There are a couple of gifs on Twitter from Sunday's game where the Rams blitzed him and Allen appears to miss an open Kroft running across the middle. Mahomes is still worlds ahead of him at beating a blitz. Allen will have to show he can consistently find his hot read.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

15 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Aside from that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

That one blown play sucked 

 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

True, this is something Allen will still need to prove he can beat. There are a couple of gifs on Twitter from Sunday's game where the Rams blitzed him and Allen appears to miss an open Kroft running across the middle. Mahomes is still worlds ahead of him at beating a blitz. Allen will have to show he can consistently find his hot read.

All in due time, my son.  He's learning week by week, season by season.  

 

Once he finds Beas, Brown, and Diggs running free a few times, the blitzing will stop, because they're going to turn it upfield and gash the defense.  

 

Allen probably won't do it consistently this season - he's still learning.  But in a year or two, he's going to be deadly managing a game.  

[Figster]

31 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You're missing the point.  Sure, Jackson may light up a bunch of teams again this year.  The problem isn't that he isn't talented.  The problem is that the offense is one-dimensional, and first the good defenses and eventually all the defenses will learn to stop it, just like KC did last night.  

 

What I'm saying is that Jackson is not a long-term premier QB, at least not until he learns to play like Brees and Wilson, small guys who play from the pocket.  It was obvious last night that Jackson can't play from the pocket anything like a top QB.  

 

 

 Atleast not in a Greg Roman O,  he's not.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Figster

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You're missing the point.  Sure, Jackson may light up a bunch of teams again this year.  The problem isn't that he isn't talented.  The problem is that the offense is one-dimensional, and first the good defenses and eventually all the defenses will learn to stop it, just like KC did last night.  

 

What I'm saying is that Jackson is not a long-term premier QB, at least not until he learns to play like Brees and Wilson, small guys who play from the pocket.  It was obvious last night that Jackson can't play from the pocket anything like a top QB.  

 

 

 

A greg roman offense is really built around running.  Its a ton of formations, ton of looks, ton of plays.  But the things i always noticed: 

 

1 run to get in makeable down and distance.  Athletic QBs work in that they can add a read to rushing plays.

2 condensed formations - easier to block for runs, plays work from either hash, outside man can still head to the boundaries

3 don't turn it over, sacks are better

4 vertical routes are run constantly to force teams to keep safeties back - thus opening up the run game again.  You have to take the vertical shots at times since an 8 man box is almost asking to get attacked downfield.

5 A lot of the passing game is timing - out routes, hitches, comebacks - the ball is out before the receiver has even turned.  

 

So for those saying - he needs weapons... They drafted speed in duvernay and have brown, they have 3 backs so they can gash you with fresh legs.  They have a boundary weapon in Andrews.  A top level offensive line with stanley and brown.  Only thing i think they could use is a better WR who can run more precise routes - but again, they have to have speed to be a good fit there.  

[Big Gun]

6 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

The Ravens’ offense just isn’t designed to play from behind.  They can’t score a ton of points in a hurry, that’s not how they’re built.  Once they got in a hole last night it was all but over.

What that really means is you don't have a good QB.

[Protocal69]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

All in due time, my son.  He's learning week by week, season by season.  

 

Once he finds Beas, Brown, and Diggs running free a few times, the blitzing will stop, because they're going to turn it upfield and gash the defense.  

 

Allen probably won't do it consistently this season - he's still learning.  But in a year or two, he's going to be deadly managing a game.  

Allen has already burned a cover 0 blitz by the Jets in week one with that audibled WR screen to John Brown

[TheElectricCompany]

What offense is designed to play from behind? That's a weird take.

There are many ways to win in this league - a run heavy attack with a dual threat QB is one of them.

As Lamar continues to improve as a passer, I'm sure his rushing attempts will decrease, but it will always be part of his game.

Yeah, they could use more weapons (what team has too many playmakers?), but he's got a pretty good supporting cast

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[HappyDays]

28 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

All in due time, my son.  He's learning week by week, season by season.  

 

Once he finds Beas, Brown, and Diggs running free a few times, the blitzing will stop, because they're going to turn it upfield and gash the defense.  

 

Allen probably won't do it consistently this season - he's still learning.  But in a year or two, he's going to be deadly managing a game.  

 

No doubt, I am confident he will do it. Allen has methodically erased each of his flaws like no QB I've ever seen. It wasn't meant as a criticism, just something I noticed he is not all the way there yet. The scary thing for the rest of the league is that as good as he is now his ceiling is still a lot higher.

[formerlyofCtown]

7 hours ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Say it with me..."We don't have to tear down Lamar, to prop Josh up".

 

Lamar is a phenomenal player and deserves his place at the "elite of the elite" table. Josh is well on his way to earning a seat. Both of these things can exist simultaneously.

 

Frankly, I find this take to be garbage. "The end of an era" because the MVP had one bad game?  Get outta here...

 

Shaw - you come for the king, you better not miss.

Lamar is a good QB in my opinion.  He's a bit different but good none the less.  He has improved as a passer every year.

I don't believe he will be the passer that Allen and Mahomes are but he will have a good career.

 

With that being said.  He should not have got the MVP last season because he had games like this so leave the MVP talk out of it.