The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[TheElectricCompany]

RE: Cam...it's a good debate. He's still writing his story, but I think he's already in the best dual threat conversation, mainly due to his red zone performance.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Mango]

Bills fans: “We have to be patient with our young QB” 

 

Also Bills Fans after one Lamar Jackson game: “ His career is over”

[eball]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Was Warren Moon really duel threat? I'm not sure he belongs in that company. Before my time but based on what I have seen and read Steve Young was more duel threat than Warren Moon. Moon could scramble a bit but he was a thrower from the pocket. 

 

Completely agree.  Never viewed Moon as a running threat.  Dude was a pure passer and threw a beautiful ball.

 

Edit:  just looked it up.  Moon averaged just a bit over 150 yards rushing per season and his high was 268 yards.  He only broke 200 three times in his NFL career.  His career YPA?  3.2

 

Yeah, a real "dual threat."

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by eball

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

I think there’s some truth to that, but I think it’s questionable what long time is. Is it 1 year until he gets an injury and loses half a step? Or is it 5 years when his running slows down and he can’t make it up with his arm.

 

That’s the problem with Lamar. He has one pitch (his running) and unless that’s working to keep the defense scared and open everything else up, he can’t thrive. Now, that could change for sure, but that’s where we’re at right now.

 

Well injuries are injuries...that can derail anyone at any time.  Im just talking from a talent perspective.  

[Figster]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Maybe. I thought Jackson's body language and demeanor was pretty poor last night in the second half. I don't think I've seen similar from Josh Allen.

In the Texans playoff game Allen seemed to distance himself from his teamates a little more then I would have liked when the going got tough. I think Its important for Allen to remember how much the whole team looks up to him and for very good reason. Josh Allen is fearless on the football field.

 

Great thing about Allen to go along with all the God given talents though is he's smart. I'm not posting anything he doesn't already know and is way ahead of me.

 

The going around on the sidelies this season pumping teamates up.   On the field heroics. 

 

MERCY!!! 

 

 

[BUFFALOTONE]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Was Warren Moon really duel threat? I'm not sure he belongs in that company. Before my time but based on what I have seen and read Steve Young was more duel threat than Warren Moon. Moon could scramble a bit but he was a thrower from the pocket. 

Funny I was going to put Young in there as well

[GoBills808]

Jackson will be fine, but he's going to continue to have games like this until he learns to make all the throws.

[eball]

12 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

This thread is like PFFs takes on Josh Allen.

 

Its one game where he struggled badly. Dudes been a beast otherwise. Some people just want their take on Jackson to be true so after one awful game the "I told you!" takes are out in full display. 

 

Scott, I think most fans have given Lamar his due for what he did in 2018 and 2019, while at the same time acknowledging that he is not a polished passer and reasonably questioning whether the Ravens' style will continue to dominate opposing defenses.  In two of their last four meaningful games Lamar has not been good.

[Figster]

21 minutes ago, Mango said:

Bills fans: “We have to be patient with our young QB” 

 

Also Bills Fans after one Lamar Jackson game: “ His career is over”

While Jacksons career is far from over it does appear more and more the Buffalo Bills drafted the best QB in the 2018 draft.

[whatdrought]

19 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well injuries are injuries...that can derail anyone at any time.  Im just talking from a talent perspective.  

Right, I get that and I’m not going to say he will or won’t get injured. I’m saying eventually, either because of injury or because of age/natural slow down, he’s going to lose a step. When he does, his whole game is at risk because it’s all built on that inhuman speed and elusiveness. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

2 hours ago, KD in CA said:

 

I think Bills fans have an aversion in general to over hyped players, not just this one in particular.

 

Jackson has done much better than I expected overall, but I would agree with those that say the jury is still out.  Yes, he's going to be very effective against the teams that can't contain his running. Yes, he's playing for a very well run organization so will win a lot of games and be a fixture in the playoffs.  But to me he's still in the Vick/V Young/Tyrod category (clearly w/ Vick at the high end of that list);  he has not yet proven he belongs in the category of guys that can take you down the field with their arm when necessary.

 

To me, the real question people should ask themselves is where they would pick him in a QB redraft of the entire league?  Obviously not ahead of Mahomes or Wilson.  But even if we ignore the old guys, ahead of Allen?  Watson? Prescott?  Murray?  Burrow?   

Bills fans have an aversion to hype of almost every player that is not a Bill...until they are a Bill...then it changes.  😉 

[machine gun kelly]

53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

"Your Kink is O.K." 

LOL

Kidding.Notkidding

 

Agree on Lamar 2019.

 

 

See, here is where I disagree. 

 

The dude is only 23 yrs old. 

 

We have endless discussion here that at 23 years old in his 3rd season, Allen is improving and may continue to improve, despite all the naysayers who say inaccurate QB in college do not improve in the NFL.

 

Why do we think one 23 yr old highly competitive intelligent athletic QB can improve, but another "is what he is" and can not?

 

It has puzzled me from Day 1.

Hapless, I see you’re point, I just meant LJ came out fast and played well from the beginning and is a decent QB.  I haven’t seen a great deal of improvement over these two years and three games.  He has a particular skill set and does it well.  Conversely, Allen seems to have improved each year even if you just take a simple metric of completion %.  53 to 59, to now really high so far at 71.1%.  I don’t expect, but hope he can maintain anywhere close to this level.  Before the season, I stated I would be ecstatic if Allen can hover around 65%, but there are 10 of 32 starting QB’s above 70%.  That has to be partially the defense were not as ready as offenses so far, but I expect teams will tighten up as we roll through the year.

[Mango]

Lamar has a total of 4 regular season losses. 3 of them are to Mahomes. Maybe we calm down a bit. 

 

 

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It caught up to him in San Fran, sure. As did working for a borderline psychopath as his Head Coach. Whether it did for him in Buffalo is a matter of opinion. Mine is that being fired 2 games into your second season after leading the league in rushing to save the lardy ass of the useless Head Coach and his equally useless brother who had just been shredded by Ryan Fitzpatrick is not evidence of your offense failing. 

 

Roman is one of the best and most innovative OCs in the NFL. But people don't want to hear about creativity when it is run game creativity. Is his passing game a bit "vanilla"? Sure. But then equally all three stops he has had QBs who are better runners than passers. He was the OC that saved Alex Smith's career before that. 

 

Only one bye now and the Bills have no shot at it. Baltimore will win 12 games minimum. They played the hard schedule last year and now get the easy one. They are the Bills in reverse. The Ravens are still a potential Superbowl Champion. They have to play better than last night but even aside from Lamar that was not the Ravens at their best. 

 

The Ravens defense usually keeps games much closer so Lamar can be more effective.

 

He is not putting a ton of points on the board, but keeps drives alive, extends plays, and can pull out the wins. He has 5 passing TDs this year and 3 of them came against a struggling Brown's team in their first game. By comparison Allen has 10 TDs against arguably better passing defenses.

 

Last night the Raven's defense was simply outclassed and that meant that Lamar and their offense had to play at the level of "air" Mahomes and the Chiefs and that is not going to happen - not sure if that will ever be the Ravens style as they emphasize setting up the pass with runs and read-option runs, but heck the Rams emphasize runs and jet option sweeps to open up their passing game and took our D to the woodshed and rolled up points on us in a hurry so whose to say how Baltimore's offense will evolve. They have some young talent at receiver, but are going to have to used them more effectively.

 

Folks know that I am an advocate of developing players even in this win-now, plug-them-in fresh out of college league. Some players produce quickly, some take more time. Giving up on a player who is committed to working and showing improvements is a mistake. Patience is a hard thing in a league that is driven by FA, but hopefully that approach that the Bills have taken pays some loyalty dividends down the road. 

 

 

 

Now Allen and Mahomes .....slinging the rock all over the field, that should be a very fun game for those who do not like defensive struggles. I do not mind a game that is a defensive chess match, but can understand watching Allen the past few weeks why an open game with lots of scoring and slinging the ball downfield where the defenses may as well be cardboard cutouts is so fun for folks to watch.

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Jackson will be fine, but he's going to continue to have games like this until he learns to make all the throws.

 

I think as Hapless was saying it isn't necessarily that he is terrible on a lot on those throws but he doesn't trust himself to throw to certain areas of the field which makes him easier to defend. 

 

I really think a true #1 who can run every route and get separation would help him. It was a different issue we were trying to address with Josh who has never wanted for willingness to take on the tough throws but look what a difference an elite route runner like Diggs has made. There are not enough to go round but I think a guy who gets so open that Jackson feels safe taking on those throws would really help him. It is why I think them kicking the tires on AB post suspension makes sense. People forget AB's play didn't decline just his mental state did.

[TheElectricCompany]

7 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Hapless, I see you’re point, I just meant LJ came out fast and played well from the beginning and is a decent QB.  I haven’t seen a great deal of improvement over these two years and three games.  He has a particular skill set and does it well.  Conversely, Allen seems to have improved each year even if you just take a simple metric of completion %.  53 to 59, to now really high so far at 71.1%.  I don’t expect, but hope he can maintain anywhere close to this level.  Before the season, I stated I would be ecstatic if Allen can hover around 65%, but there are 10 of 32 starting QB’s above 70%.  That has to be partially the defense were not as ready as offenses so far, but I expect teams will tighten up as we roll through the year.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think as Hapless was saying it isn't necessarily that he is terrible on a lot on those throws but he doesn't trust himself to throw to certain areas of the field which makes him easier to defend. 

 

I really think a true #1 who can run every route and get separation would help him. It was a different issue we were trying to address with Josh who has never wanted for willingness to take on the tough throws but look what a difference an elite route runner like Diggs has made. There are not enough to go round but I think a guy who gets so open that Jackson feels safe taking on those throws would really help him. It is why I think them kicking the tires on AB post suspension makes sense. People forget AB's play didn't decline just his mental state did.

I don't think it will help much. Jackson can throw the TE seam w/anticipation because it's a straight read and always a mismatch. There aren't a lot of routes that true WR1s excel at (versus JAG wideouts) that Jackson can also exploit. He can hit spots between cover2 but you don't need a top wideout for those go routes, that's why Brown was so successful getting downfield. Jackson's reads from the pocket aren't sophisticated enough to take advantage of everything a top WR can do.

 

He needs to learn the position. They have set that offense up to maximize his effectiveness which has had the curious additional effect of stunting his growth at the position. They need to bring him along because he is not going to improve playing zone read/option and single read sets.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Hapless, I see you’re point, I just meant LJ came out fast and played well from the beginning and is a decent QB.  I haven’t seen a great deal of improvement over these two years and three games.  He has a particular skill set and does it well.  Conversely, Allen seems to have improved each year even if you just take a simple metric of completion %.  53 to 59, to now really high so far at 71.1%.  I don’t expect, but hope he can maintain anywhere close to this level.  Before the season, I stated I would be ecstatic if Allen can hover around 65%, but there are 10 of 32 starting QB’s above 70%.  That has to be partially the defense were not as ready as offenses so far, but I expect teams will tighten up as we roll through the year.

 

I saw a huge jump in Lamar between Year 1 and Year 2, myself.  Felt that was the general POV in the NFL.

[machine gun kelly]

Point taken Hapless.

[WideNine]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think as Hapless was saying it isn't necessarily that he is terrible on a lot on those throws but he doesn't trust himself to throw to certain areas of the field which makes him easier to defend. 

 

I really think a true #1 who can run every route and get separation would help him. It was a different issue we were trying to address with Josh who has never wanted for willingness to take on the tough throws but look what a difference an elite route runner like Diggs has made. There are not enough to go round but I think a guy who gets so open that Jackson feels safe taking on those throws would really help him. It is why I think them kicking the tires on AB post suspension makes sense. People forget AB's play didn't decline just his mental state did.

 

They drafted Marquis "Holywood" Brown I think to be that guy, not sure if he will ever get to that level.

 

I loved Brown's shifty-ness and he does have another serious gear when it comes to RAC, but I thought his hands were suspect and in IMO he would disappear in big games. You want that #1 guy to be the kind of player that can be your go-to, who rises to the occasion, excels in adversity, who can enforce his will on the opposing team; you see that quality in Diggs that forces teams to say "we cannot cover this guy 1:1" when they roll the tape.

 

I don't believe draft assessments are the end of the story, but they often are right in regards to where a player is at and what that player will need to change to take the next step in the pros. I agree with you that the Ravens still need that clear #1 receiver.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by WideNine