QB School: Over Josh Allen

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It's more for me than for Allen.  It was interesting to me to see the openings that Allen missed and to see the keys that should have shown Allen that he had another play.  

 

The point he doesn't make, the point we all get, is that these are instantaneous decisions the QB has to make, and it takes years of playing to understand the keys so intuitively that you just know to go to another guy.  Like that thing about the middle linebacker turning to run with the checkdown back.  You've got see it, out of the corner of your eye and know that that hip and shoulder turn is leaving a whole in the middle that your receiver can see and sit in.   It isn't something you pick up instantly; it's experience and some bad decisions and a variety of things.   Allen's still learning.   What I've said for a couple of years now is that it will Allen's fourth and fifth years when he starts to show master quarterback skills.  

I think every play is independent on its own. I've seen Allen sit in the pocket and wait for his read downfield to develop, all the while he is using his eyes to manipulate the defense to open his read

 

It just doesn't always happen perfectly in the NFL. You also don't know the play call in question or his reads

 

He can say he should have waited for Brown all he wants, but he doesn't know Josh's progressions on the play, and he doesn't know who it was designed for

 

Every quarterback has the split second decision of taking what the defense gives them or waiting for a better read. If they take what the defense gives them it doesn't make it a worse read because something else would have opened up later on

 

It just gives you a play to come back to later

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think every play is independent on its own. I've seen Allen sit in the pocket and wait for his read downfield to develop, all the while he is using his eyes to manipulate the defense to open his read

 

It just doesn't always happen perfectly in the NFL. You also don't know the play call in question or his reads

 

He can say he should have waited for Brown all he wants, but he doesn't know Josh's progressions on the play, and he doesn't know who it was designed for

 

Every quarterback has the split second decision of taking what the defense gives them or waiting for a better read. If they take what the defense gives them it doesn't make it a worse read because something else would have opened up later on

 

It just gives you a play to come back to later

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it's easy to see what he was talking about on the throw to Knox.   First, it may be that Allen's instructions were to throw it to Knox, period, after the guys going deep cleared the space.  But if Allen had an option to go where he wanted, he could see that Knox was clear and would be the checkdown for the next two seconds, so Allen had time to look for the deep man on the incut.  He could have looked and thrown, or he could have decided to come back to Knox.  The point is that Allen had the time to make a choice other than the checkdown.   I think it's likely that in two years he'll take that time and be able to decide to go deep. 

 

This guy's point is, I think, that Allen still hasn't settled all the way down and still isn't seeing everything.  It's similar to the point he made when Allen missed Diggs on the shallow crosser to the left.  When Allen checked his #3 guy on the right side, he turned his feet to get ready to throw to that side.  Then he came back to the left and threw, but he didn't reset his feet, so he was throwing across his body.   He has just kind of antsy.   He knew he had time, but he wasn't quite patient enough to reset. 

 

As I said, that's the kind of stuff that comes with experience.   

 

And, as you say, all the QBs make those mistakes as they're learning, even sometimes when they've been doing it for ten years.  I've seen Mahomes do similar stuff - the announcers make him out to be a god, but his inexperience shows up every game, too. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Wow...very interesting on his breakdown on that huge play to Knox where he fumbles...said the throw he should have made was to Brown on the in because it likely was a TD and he is confused as to why Allen threw a checkdown

 

Thank you for posting this before I bothered to watch the video. I'm not interested in an analysis from someone that thinks playing QB is like playing Madden.

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, it's easy to see what he was talking about on the throw to Knox.   First, it may be that Allen's instructions were to throw it to Knox, period, after the guys going deep cleared the space.  But if Allen had an option to go where he wanted, he could see that Knox was clear and would be the checkdown for the next two seconds, so Allen had time to look for the deep man on the incut.  He could have looked and thrown, or he could have decided to come back to Knox.  The point is that Allen had the time to make a choice other than the checkdown.   I think it's likely that in two years he'll take that time and be able to decide to go deep. 

 

This guy's point is, I think, that Allen still hasn't settled all the way down and still isn't seeing everything.  It's similar to the point he made when Allen missed Diggs on the shallow crosser to the left.  When Allen checked his #3 guy on the right side, he turned his feet to get ready to throw to that side.  Then he came back to the left and threw, but he didn't reset his feet, so he was throwing across his body.   He has just kind of antsy.   He knew he had time, but he wasn't quite patient enough to reset. 

 

As I said, that's the kind of stuff that comes with experience.   

 

And, as you say, all the QBs make those mistakes as they're learning, even sometimes when they've been doing it for ten years.  I've seen Mahomes do similar stuff - the announcers make him out to be a god, but his inexperience shows up every game, too. 

Experience makes up for a lot of things on the football field

[CaliBills]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Wow...very interesting on his breakdown on that huge play to Knox where he fumbles...said the throw he should have made was to Brown on the in because it likely was a TD and he is confused as to why Allen threw a checkdown that flashed when the in was so wide open and said Allen looked like he did at Wyoming to him on that play with a lack of anticipation of what was going to happen...play breakdown of this starts at about 8:45 in the video...

 

Interesting perspective and goes into great detail about the nuances and it shows that no matter how good Allen has looked, he has still left some plays out there...that throw would have been a 100% TD to Brown on the in...the safety was standing still about 20 yards deeper and off about 10 yards to his right and would never have been able to catch Brown running full speed away and up the field...

 

I actually do not agree with his analysis at all.

 

If you watch the motion when Josh "Pump Fakes" it is most likely he was thinking about throwing to 1 of the 2 receivers on the longer routes. But when he does that there were 4 people bunched together and the CB that didn't go with brown was yet to be determined and most likely could not see if the CB would follow Brown or not. So he pulled it down and through began his throwing motion to Knox before Brown was even out of his break.  

 

He could have waited until brown came out of his break and possibly gained more yards or possibly gotten sacked or possibly made an errant throw. But he made the split second decisions to throw to knox who had no one around him still while 2 WRs and 2 CBs were within 5 yds of each other.

Correct call in my books.

[TPS]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

But that being said...imagine how good Allen can be once he gets better at those things or more consistent??  The sky is the limit for him.

This is essentially what Palmer indicated, that we're only seeing the "tip of of the iceberg" so far.... 

[Big Turk]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Thank you for posting this before I bothered to watch the video. I'm not interested in an analysis from someone that thinks playing QB is like playing Madden.

 

He was a former NFL QB...pretty sure he knows it isn't like Madden

[Kelly the Dog]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Thank you for posting this before I bothered to watch the video. I'm not interested in an analysis from someone that thinks playing QB is like playing Madden.

It’s very good. And he doesn’t. And he played in the league. And he knows his stuff. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

9 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

And that 47 yard laser down the sideline to Diggs on the stutter-go route was a half stepped into throw with Spain rolling into his legs that he threw perfectly...both were really impressive throws.

to me this might the even more interesting improvement. With all the harping on footwork and mechanics, aside from your old school Brady, Brees and Matt Ryan types, the young elite QBs in today’s NFL  can hit throws from all arm angles, on the run l, jumping backwards, etc. which means they can navigate muddy pockets. 
 

impressed. Let’s hope it continues. Jets and Dolphins were good warm ups for real nfl defenses coming next.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[TigerJ]

8 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Every single quarterback leaves plays out on the field. You have no idea the play call , what his reads are, and what the play is designed for

 

The play looks like it is designed for Knox crossing face and it's honestly stupid for Sullivan to say it looks like Wyoming Josh Allen. The name of the game is to take what the defense gives you

 

You can't always throw it to everybody on the play, and he definitely did not make a bad decision, just because somebody else was breaking open

This is kind of what I was thinking.  When I watched the Kansas City game, I saw a lot of plays in which I thought Mahomes made either a bad choice or a bad throw.  As far as I know, nobody has come to the conclusion Mahomes is anything less than a great QB.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

to me this might the even more interesting improvement. With all the harping on footwork and mechanics, aside from your old school Brady, Brees and Matt Ryan types, the young elite QBs in today’s NFL  can hit throws from all arm angles, on the run l, jumping backwards, etc. which means they can navigate muddy pockets. 
 

impressed. Let’s hope it continues. Jets and Dolphins were good warm ups for real nfl defenses coming next.

I don’t know if this is good or bad but most of his great throws last game, and there were about a dozen of them, were not great fundamentals. He went through his progressions fantastic. He set his feet originally. He faced the receiver. But then he didn’t necessarily step into the throw. Many times he threw all arm, off his back foot, etc. Some of them he had no chance to do it. But three quarters of them were just ridiculous arm talent and accuracy. 

[Buffalo716]

35 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I don’t know if this is good or bad but most of his great throws last game, and there were about a dozen of them, were not great fundamentals. He went through his progressions fantastic. He set his feet originally. He faced the receiver. But then he didn’t necessarily step into the throw. Many times he threw all arm, off his back foot, etc. Some of them he had no chance to do it. But three quarters of them were just ridiculous arm talent and accuracy. 

I think the problem with Allen, and I'm not even going to call it a problem. Is that his arm is so strong that he doesn't have to step into throws under 10-15 yards

 

He just needs to have his base and feet aligned. With his quick release and arm strength he can get the ball there instantly with solid accuracy

 

He starts getting off whenn his lower half gets out of sync

 

 

[BubbaT]

12 hours ago, Fixxxer said:

JT O'Sullivan breakdowns Allen's performance vs.  Dolphins.

 

 

Thank you for posting this. Much appreciated

[Franco_92]

I wouldn't be surprised if working on "anticipation" is next on the docket, especially for this coming summer. 

If he becomes as successful in that as he was in addressing his intermediate (2018 -> 19) and long (2019 -> 20) game...

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think the problem with Allen, and I'm not even going to call it a problem. Is that his arm is so strong that he doesn't have to step into throws under 10-15 yards

 

He just needs to have his base and feet aligned. With his quick release and arm strength he can get the ball there instantly with solid accuracy

 

He starts getting off whenn his lower half gets out of sync

 

 

He’s got a live arm. It’s similar to Mahomes in that he can make basically any throw off platform so occasionally his lower body is sloppy. Usually they can get away with it. Sometimes they can’t. The difference is that Allen’s get used as proof he’s inaccurate and Mahomes’s are called misfires.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

16 hours ago, CaliBills said:

 

I actually do not agree with his analysis at all.

 

If you watch the motion when Josh "Pump Fakes" it is most likely he was thinking about throwing to 1 of the 2 receivers on the longer routes. But when he does that there were 4 people bunched together and the CB that didn't go with brown was yet to be determined and most likely could not see if the CB would follow Brown or not. So he pulled it down and through began his throwing motion to Knox before Brown was even out of his break.  

 

He could have waited until brown came out of his break and possibly gained more yards or possibly gotten sacked or possibly made an errant throw. But he made the split second decisions to throw to knox who had no one around him still while 2 WRs and 2 CBs were within 5 yds of each other.

Correct call in my books.

Haha, I have another take. I thought Josh saw Knox's guy fall down as Josh was finishing the play action and wanted to throw it quicker to Knox but there was a dline relatively close so he just waited the extra time for Knox to clear the line. I don't think there was any thought to go down the field at all, once the lb fell over (in man defense) JA was locked in on Knox, and I'm fine with that.

[CaliBills]

4 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

Haha, I have another take. I thought Josh saw Knox's guy fall down as Josh was finishing the play action and wanted to throw it quicker to Knox but there was a dline relatively close so he just waited the extra time for Knox to clear the line. I don't think there was any thought to go down the field at all, once the lb fell over (in man defense) JA was locked in on Knox, and I'm fine with that.

 

Definitely can see that too.  

 

Crazy how the eyes and mind see completely different things compared to others.  Now imagine being in Josh's shoes on that play and from his perspective lol

Edited September 24, 2020 by CaliBills

[thenorthremembers]

Not for nothing, but if I go through my progressions and I see a 300 pound freak of a human about to crush me I tend to throw it to the first person I see open.

 

These things are entertaining and good insight to how the chess game of football works, but it would hold a lot more weight for me if Peyton Manning was making these videos.   A bit harder for me to take serious given the opinions are coming from guys like J.T. O'Sullivan. 

[DrDawkinstein]

17 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Thank you for posting this before I bothered to watch the video. I'm not interested in an analysis from someone that thinks playing QB is like playing Madden.

 

Dont let yourself miss out on some good analysis over something so petty.

 

JT isnt wrong. The pass probably should have gone to Brown. And for novices like us, I appreciate the breakdown because my amateur eyes would never have picked that up.

 

This is much more similar to how Daboll/Josh will break down the film. And it is that kind of insight I am looking for, as opposed to the absolute idiots they have on ESPN who do nothing but ball-wash the Cowboys.

 

I havent watched the hour+ breakdown from Cover1 this week yet, but I bet they point out similar things. It isnt a major knock on Josh, just constructive criticism.

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Not for nothing, but if I go through my progressions and I see a 300 pound freak of a human about to crush me I tend to throw it to the first person I see open.

 

These things are entertaining and good insight to how the chess game of football works, but it would hold a lot more weight for me if Peyton Manning was making these videos.   A bit harder for me to take serious given the opinions are coming from guys like J.T. O'Sullivan. 

Crappy players often make better coaches than great players.