Bills have weapons to be elite offense

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Looking at the Chiefs box score and the weapons they deploy, it's easy to see the comparison for the Bills. We have the weapons. This year is all about #17... With Mahomes, our offense would be every bit as good as KC's, don't you think?

 

T. Hill / S. Diggs
S. Watkins / J. Brown
T. Kelce / D. Knox
M. Hardman / C. Beasley
D. Robinson / G. Davis
C. Edwards-Helaire / D. Singletary
D. Williams / Z. Moss

 

Doesn't even include McKenzie.

 

Knox as we knew him last year is clearly not Kelce, but most people think he's a stud on the rise.

 

I see people on here, as well as analysts, talk about how we won't blow people out and we're not built that way. My question is what exactly would we have to change in order to be built that way? I feel like these comments are actually an indictment on Allen, and what people are really saying is they don't think the quarterback is good enough to lead an explosive offense.

 

I disagree. I think Allen is an asset and another weapon, not a liability. If he takes the next step forward, and given our top defense (better than KC's, by the way), the Bills should be right there with KC and Baltimore as AFC favorites.

 

 

S. Watkins / J. Brown  ...  Not so fast.  JB had double the output with 1 more game played.

 

Look to last season. The guys in the booth even mentioned it last night-  Sammy had 3 TD's in the opening game in 2019.

• What they didn't say was -  that he was an afterthought the entire season.  He only became noticeable again in the playoffs. 

 

S. Watkins 3 TD, 14 gamed played 13 starts, 48.1 YG,  673 rec yards, 57.8 catch rate

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WatkSa00.htm

 

J. Brown  6 TD,  15 gamed played 15 starts, 70.7 YG, 1060 rec yards, 62.6 catch rate

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowJo02.htm

 

T. Kelce / D. Knox  - You stated that were not the same ... so why compare them?  let the others make that assertion.

Edited September 11, 2020 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

The point is not so much comparing each and every player against another; it's looking at the whole unit of weapons. And I think the Bills have as good a unit as the Chiefs, outside of Mahomes.

[H2o]

Our offense has all the world of potential. We have very good players at every skill position. We have a solid OL that already has continuity. What we need is for Allen to continue to show improvement while being consistent and for Daboll to not continually make head-scratching play calls, especially on 3rd downs or when we get up by a couple of scores. McDermott also needs to keep his hands out of the offense because we can all tell when McClappy turns into McConservative and tells Daboll to call the game as such. Our foot needs to be on the gas for the entire 60 minutes week in and week out. 

[Thurman#1]

I'd take Brown over Watkins. I still don't see it with Sammy. He has a big game every once in a great while but he doesn't stay healthy and he's not consistent. Other than that, the Chiefs have it all over us, IMO. 

[Thurman#1]

6 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

The point is not so much comparing each and every player against another; it's looking at the whole unit of weapons. And I think the Bills have as good a unit as the Chiefs, outside of Mahomes.

 

 

Fair enough that you think so. You're probably just about the only one, even among Bills fans.

 

I personally think you're well off the mark.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Thurman#1

[mjt328]

The Chiefs probably have the best offense in the NFL.  

At this point, it would be insulting for us to even start comparing ourselves to them.  However, the potential is there to attack defenses in a similar way.

 

Kansas City uses great speed on the outside, which pulls coverage away from the middle of the field.  When defenses are focused on stopping Hill/Watkins, that leaves Kelce open in the middle of the field.  Put an extra man on the tight end, and you become vulnerable down the field.  Patrick Mahomes is very tough to rattle with pressure and also deadly accurate on deep passes.  So any strategy you use against him is risky.

 

The pieces are available for the Bills to put defenses in the same predicament.  On the outside, they can use Brown (similar to Hill) and Diggs (similar to Watkins) to draw defensive coverage down the field.  Both guys are capable of demanding double-teams.  Now, I certainly wouldn't put Knox in the same zip code as Kelce.  But if defenses are forced to leave the middle of the field open, we can certainly take advantage with Beasley from the slot.  Allen is also extremely dangerous as a runner.  Try stopping all of this, and you start running out of defenders.

 

 

The weapons are absolutely there.  The key is Allen.  

If he cannot hit those downfield passes, teams won't need to respect Diggs/Brown on the outside and none of this matters.  If he can't quickly diagnose coverages, defensive coordinators will just find ways to confuse him and keep him from finding the open guys.  

 

[SCBills]

33 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

I'd take Brown over Watkins. I still don't see it with Sammy. He has a big game every once in a great while but he doesn't stay healthy and he's not consistent. Other than that, the Chiefs have it all over us, IMO. 

I’d take Diggs over Hill.    In regards to Brown/Watkins, it’s evidence that Allen needs to make that jump.   Watkins has more talent, but with Brown’s speed and route running, he’d light it up with Mahomes - perhaps even a better fit for Mahomes than Watkins.   Allen missed him deep far too frequently last year.  
 

Edited September 11, 2020 by SCBills

[SirAndrew]

2 hours ago, wvbillsfan said:

I think the missing piece to that list is Andy Reid. That man has coached really good offenses throughout his career regardless of his QB. 

Underrated for a long time because fans are harsh on anyone who doesn’t win a Super Bowl. Reid actually worked wonders in Philly with McNabb and a weak supporting cast. Reid has sustained success everywhere he goes. Now that he has a QB, we’re finally seeing what he can really do. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

50 targets, 28 receptions, 388 yards and 2 TDs.  Those are Knox's numbers from last year.  Anyone on the outside looking in would say those stats are putrid.

 

And when McDermott can beat New England and start winning playoff games, then I'll say he's a great coach.  

 

Right now, both Knox and McDermott have shown great potential, but it's time to show me the mother ***** baby.

 

First off can't believe how hard it is to find actual stats these days.  All you can find are fantasy rankings!

 

Out of the 50 targets, how many were great easily catchable passes that he dropped?  Without replaying every throw to Knox, I'm sure knowing Allen's accuracy issues, many were either badly thrown or at best not an easy to catch ball either.  From what I recall there were about 10 drops, certainly not great, but for a rookie lets see how he improves.   The one time I could find stats for TE's  think he ranked around 30th in receptions, ahead of first round pick Hockenson and close to the other rookie TE's  other than Fant.  Think there was one rookie drafted lower than had good stats.

 

Many here stated the Bills should have gone after OJ Howard last year as he was available 53 targets, 34 catches, 459 yards, 1 TD not much different!  Jimmy Graham  had 38 catches out of 60 targets and had passes thrown to him by Aaron Rodgers.   4 more catches by Knox would have put him up with a number of the other highly thought of TE's around 65%, I'm sure there were easily 4 hard to catch passes thrown by Allen say compared to Rodgers.

 

Then factor in how shaky the Bills overall passing attack was!

 

He also can do things after the catch the few in the league can do.  His stats this year may be lower with all the weapons the team has, we'll see.

 

Actually the one thing you can say by looking at the stats, the fact that 4 more catches would have put him with the league leaders, means you really can't draw any type of conclusions by looking at the stats.  There's not nearly enough body of work there IMO.

 

Was he great, no, but was he putrid and sucked as you stated, absolutely not!

 

 

Having said all that to the OP's point.  Knox is far far cry from Kelce and Davis and Moss have yet to take a snap.  So kind of crazy at this point to compare the two teams

Edited September 11, 2020 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[Mr. WEO]

I laughed at S. Watkins/ J. Brown

I cried at Kelce/Knox.

 

This can't be anything but satire.

 

OP left one out:  Reid/Daboll

[Penfield45]

weapons don't matter when you don't have the coaches 

 

Daboll has shown nothing in his nfl career that makes anyone think he can lead a high powered offense. his gameplans and playcalling last season was our weakest link. He needs to improve this season or he is gone. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Weapons are meaningless unless u ou have the QB. Its all on Allen

[Just Joshin']

Last night was an example of the impact Diggs will have for the Bills.  Hopkins has a large catch radius and helped Watson.  Diggs will do the same for Allen.  Looking for all the weapons to produce an above average offense.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Looking at the Chiefs box score and the weapons they deploy, it's easy to see the comparison for the Bills. We have the weapons. This year is all about #17... With Mahomes, our offense would be every bit as good as KC's, don't you think?

 

T. Hill / S. Diggs
S. Watkins / J. Brown
T. Kelce / D. Knox
M. Hardman / C. Beasley
D. Robinson / G. Davis
C. Edwards-Helaire / D. Singletary
D. Williams / Z. Moss

 

Doesn't even include McKenzie.

 

Knox as we knew him last year is clearly not Kelce, but most people think he's a stud on the rise.

 

I see people on here, as well as analysts, talk about how we won't blow people out and we're not built that way. My question is what exactly would we have to change in order to be built that way? I feel like these comments are actually an indictment on Allen, and what people are really saying is they don't think the quarterback is good enough to lead an explosive offense.

 

I disagree. I think Allen is an asset and another weapon, not a liability. If he takes the next step forward, and given our top defense (better than KC's, by the way), the Bills should be right there with KC and Baltimore as AFC favorites.

 

Andy Reid as an offensive play designer and play caller is brilliant.  It’s not limited to his play design itself, but also his judgement on timing, when to call what.

He’s like a human paper shredder to opposing defensive game plans.

 

I grant that he has great talent, but Reid with KC historically got consistent, efficient offense out of lesser players.

In answer to your question as to “what would we have to change in order to be built that way?”, I honestly hope to be proven wrong but I’m afraid the answer may be “Daboll”

 

Secondary point: at this juncture, Knox isn’t fit to touch Kelce’s jock with one finger much less carry it.   Nothing against Knox, I like the guy - but the Bills are a long way from giving Allen that big, sure-handed target (or targets) that Kelce, the Ravens TE platoon, and Kittle provide to Mahomes, Jackson, and Garrappolo.  And that does matter, because they move the chains.

[Putin]

3 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Weapons are meaningless unless u ou have the QB. Its all on Allen

Ask Brady if weapons are meaningless 

[Buff76ers]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

If we're being honest, here, I think we can all agree that Knox pretty much sucked last year.

 

I love the kid and I think he's going to be a great TE.  But comparing him to Kelce in any way with regard to being and NFL TE shouldn't even happen.

 

And as much as I am not a Sam fan, the Chiefs were able to push the right buttons to make him play as well as we all hoped he would in Buffalo.  I think most would take him over Brown in a heartbeat.

 

KC is better in every way, starting with coaching - and it's not close.

The two main reasons in my opinion for sammy not working out is that we didn't have a great coach and didn't have a very good QB.  If you want to attach a 3rd reason to that I think that Buffalo still wasn't an attractive town.  Things have changed and I think if he were here now it would be a different mindset. 

[DasNootz]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Looking at the Chiefs box score and the weapons they deploy, it's easy to see the comparison for the Bills. We have the weapons. This year is all about #17... With Mahomes, our offense would be every bit as good as KC's, don't you think?

 

T. Hill / S. Diggs
S. Watkins / J. Brown
T. Kelce / D. Knox
M. Hardman / C. Beasley
D. Robinson / G. Davis
C. Edwards-Helaire / D. Singletary
D. Williams / Z. Moss

 

Doesn't even include McKenzie.

 

Knox as we knew him last year is clearly not Kelce, but most people think he's a stud on the rise.

 

I see people on here, as well as analysts, talk about how we won't blow people out and we're not built that way. My question is what exactly would we have to change in order to be built that way? I feel like these comments are actually an indictment on Allen, and what people are really saying is they don't think the quarterback is good enough to lead an explosive offense.

 

I disagree. I think Allen is an asset and another weapon, not a liability. If he takes the next step forward, and given our top defense (better than KC's, by the way), the Bills should be right there with KC and Baltimore as AFC favorites.

I’m not sure there’s a position on that list I wouldn’t take the KC side of at this point... that can change in a year, but nearly every KC player listed is proven, and we’re working with “potential” at this point.   
 

I think we are considerably closer to Houston than KC from an offensive standpoint.  KC is steps ahead of everyone.

 

As for comparing Brown to Watkins in production.  1 was the primary target in the passing game while the other was the 3rd option at best. This year Brown will be a 2/3 and in a more similar role to Watkins.

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by DasNootz

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

 

Well, good morning Mr. Grumpy Pants!!!

 

We act as though something is owed to us.  It’s not.  Belittling McD for not winning a road playoff game or beating NE*** teams that went to the Super Bowl is a little short-sighted.  He has built an incredible culture and they have a talented roster.  No, they shouldn’t be compared (offensively) with the Chiefs at this point but they DO have the pieces on offense to be very good.

 

Knox was a raw prospect and admitted it wasn’t until late in the year that things started to slow down for him.  We’re all waiting to see what he does next.  Josh certainly talked him up this summer.

 

To me, the guy on the hot seat this year for the Bills isn’t McD, it’s Daboll.  He has put his offense in place and this is year 3.  He finally has the multiple weapons he craves to show different looks and attack different opponents’ weaknesses.  Daboll and Josh need to be on the same page.

 

I’m the contrarian here — I’m not worried about Josh at all.  He’s going to open a lot of eyes when he starts distributing the ball to all of these guys and has a completion % in the mid-60s.  I’m expecting a top-10 offense in yards and points this season, with a ceiling that is even higher.  They’re not the Chiefs but they don’t have to be.

 

I can see how my post could be interpreted as grumpy,  but believe me - I do think Knox is going to be great and I think McDermott has done a very good job.  Don't even get me started on Daboll.  There's a reason he's never been successful as on NFL OC.

 

I'm hoping the continuity works in the offense's favor.  I absolutely love Josh Allen,  but the training wheels are off now.  Both he and Daboll need to be better this year.  I am optimistic that this offense will be fantastic.

[SCBills]

17 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said:

Last night was an example of the impact Diggs will have for the Bills.  Hopkins has a large catch radius and helped Watson.  Diggs will do the same for Allen.  Looking for all the weapons to produce an above average offense.

I can’t lie... I immediately thought about Allen minus a #1 WR last year when watching Watson throwing to guys not named Hopkins.  
 

The Stills drop on the sideline late in the game was one we saw far too frequently last year.  It wouldn’t have changed the outcome, but that was a well thrown ball, semi-difficult catch, would’ve been a 30-40 yard gain/potential TD...instead... incompletion.  
 

Also, no way KC’s defense looks as ferocious as they did if Hopkins is out running routes and getting open quickly in the intermediate route range.  

[Bangarang]

Daboll isn’t even in the same galaxy as Reid in terms of offensive design and play calling.