DCofNC Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said: Edmunds has not missed a game and is 21. There is not a single GM in the league that would consider him a “miss.” He’s still just potential, not an impact player. If he grows, fine, but he’s replaceable at this point. 1
GunnerBill Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, DCofNC said: I would call “big” a true stand out player, yes that probably means in the top 10 for QB, RB, etc and maybe top 25 for CB, WR etc where there are a greater depth of players. If you pick a QB in the top 10 and give up a lot to get up there to do so, he better be a true franchise guy. Same thing for a MLB in the top 20, at that position he better be a top 5 to justify that draft capital. In reality there have been very few DTs that have ever justified a top 15 pick either in terms of impact on the team’s success, so to me EO has better show the F up this year. Right now, this team has exactly 1 player who is indisputably a top player at their position and Beane had nothing to do with it. He’s used 4 first round picks, 2 are starters, but certainly not for every team and one is Diggs, who I put as a top 20 WR, but anybody calling him more than that yet, is a dreamer. Look at his production, it’s good, but no where near elite. I still don’t like that trade, it might be more indicative of the fact they HAVE to evaluate Allen and this guy is proven, so I can take it from that perspective, but it was way too much for a mid tier #1 with the draft class of WRs last year. You are too low on Diggs. He is at worst a top 12 receiver. Other than that I agree with most of what you have written. Before we crown Beane one of HIS picks needs to hit big and be a perennial pro bowler who is in the discussion for all pro honours. Allen, Edmunds or Oliver the likely candidates. The best draft of the new regime was the McDermott one - White, Dawkins and Milano. Edited September 12, 2020 by GunnerBill
GunnerBill Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, DCofNC said: I think they are doing a solid job, but the way people talk, it’s like they walk on water and I don’t agree with that. I also am of the very unpopular train of thought, if McDermott doesn’t grow as a coach and understand situational football better, specifically on offense, he will be another Marvin Lewis, just good enough it’s hard to fire and never good enough to win the big games. This year is a true pivotal season for the team, they’ll ride or die with Allen, but there’s a lot more to watch. I disagree with you on McDermott. He is an excellent coach. I doubt he is the next Marvin Lewis but if he turns out to be then let's cross that bridge when we come to it. Also time will reflect a lot better on the job Marv did in Cincy. Look at what they were before him. Look at what they are after him. I think that franchise is the most dysfunctional in the entire league and Marv made them almost look competent for a decade. When you watch the Carson Palmer A Football Life you realise just what a clusterf*** that place was behind the scenes. Without him they earned the #1 pick. There will be more of that to come I fear. 1
GoBills808 Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 13 minutes ago, DCofNC said: He’s still just potential, not an impact player. If he grows, fine, but he’s replaceable at this point. Re: Edmunds- completely ridiculous. 3
DCofNC Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: You are too low on Diggs. He is at worst a top 12 receiver. Other than that I agree with most of what you have written. Before we crown Beane one of HIS picks needs to hit big and be a perennial pro bowler who is in the discussion for all pro honours. Allen, Edmunds or Oliver the likely candidates. The best draft of the new regime was the McDermott one - White, Dawkins and Milano. I don’t necessarily think Diggs is at worst top 12, if we are being honest, he’s only broken 1000 yards 2 times in 5 years and barely so at that. He’s good, but John Brown has produced basically the same numbers. He’s never been the number one target on his own team. He’s going to walk in here as part of a team that also has another guy teams have to account for, so hopefully his success continues, but I don’t feel he’s a clear cut top WR. 4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Re: Edmunds- completely ridiculous. No, it’s absolutely the truth. He’s still a liability in the run game and hasn’t become a force in anything else. He’s a big, fast guy, as of right now, that’s it. He’s not elite, anybody who thinks he is because they watch the rest of the Bills LBs need to take a look at real LBs, the biggest weakness in this team is the LB core and it’s not close. Milano is more valuable and harder to replace than Edmunds right now. Edmunds has POTENTIAL to be great, thus far, he’s not.
ColoradoBills Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, DCofNC said: I think they are doing a solid job, but the way people talk, it’s like they walk on water and I don’t agree with that. I also am of the very unpopular train of thought, if McDermott doesn’t grow as a coach and understand situational football better, specifically on offense, he will be another Marvin Lewis, just good enough it’s hard to fire and never good enough to win the big games. This year is a true pivotal season for the team, they’ll ride or die with Allen, but there’s a lot more to watch. There will be a portion of fans of any sports team that will always feel irrational exuberance. That doesn't bother me in the least. Tomorrows game is the beginning of a very important season for fans of the Buffalo Bills. Anyone not seeing that this is different from the last couple of decades is missing out IMO. I can rationally determine what I think the Bills season will be like but tomorrow I will be on the edge of my seat hoping for a win and worrying about a loss like I always do. It's why I choose to be a fan! Go Bills and Good Luck! 1
GunnerBill Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, DCofNC said: I don’t necessarily think Diggs is at worst top 12, if we are being honest, he’s only broken 1000 yards 2 times in 5 years and barely so at that. He’s good, but John Brown has produced basically the same numbers. He’s never been the number one target on his own team. He’s going to walk in here as part of a team that also has another guy teams have to account for, so hopefully his success continues, but I don’t feel he’s a clear cut top WR. You can feel what you like. If there are more than 12 receivers that outdo his production over the last 5 years let me know who they are... and that despite as you say him being a co #1 on his team. I guarantee you Diggs numbers will be right around last season again with the Bills and Thielen's numbers will be his worst career year without Diggs. Watch the Vikings film from 2018 when they were both out there. Watch how teams defend them and who they double. That tells you what people in the game think. Teams were happier to let Thielen have 8 catches a game than let Diggs have them.
DCofNC Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I disagree with you on McDermott. He is an excellent coach. I doubt he is the next Marvin Lewis but if he turns out to be then let's cross that bridge when we come to it. Also time will reflect a lot better on the job Marv did in Cincy. Look at what they were before him. Look at what they are after him. I think that franchise is the most dysfunctional in the entire league and Marv made them almost look competent for a decade. When you watch the Carson Palmer A Football Life you realise just what a clusterf*** that place was behind the scenes. Without him they earned the #1 pick. There will be more of that to come I fear. Your take may be correct, I don’t see the brilliance yet. Marv did pretty well with a mess, but holding a mess together is not the goal, the goal is to win a championship. I’d much rather the team absolutely melt down and start over with eyes in the prize vs being stuck in the purgatory we have witnessed for 20 years in Buffalo.
GunnerBill Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Re: Edmunds- completely ridiculous. Yea it is. His initial comment that he still hasn't completely justified the pick I can get on board with. But saying he doesn't impact games is ridiculous. I expect Edmunds to make the final step this season to where he is most definitely in Beane's elite player drafted column. He isn't there yet but I think by January he will be. Just now, DCofNC said: Your take may be correct, I don’t see the brilliance yet. Marv did pretty well with a mess, but holding a mess together is not the goal, the goal is to win a championship. I’d much rather the team absolutely melt down and start over with eyes in the prize vs being stuck in the purgatory we have witnessed for 20 years in Buffalo. Yes but melt down and restart isn't an option in Cincy either. While Mike Brown owns the franchise and runs it like a semi-pro team you cannot win a Championship there. 1
HappyDays Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 20 minutes ago, DCofNC said: Milano is more valuable and harder to replace than Edmunds right now. I take a fan's ability.to judge Edmunds vs. Milano as a basic litmus test for how well they can evaluate players. If you think Milano is more valuable you don't have a fundamental understanding of what they are asked to do and how they affect the offense. I appreciate what Milano can do but OCs aren't game planning around him the way they do for Edmunds. 1
DCofNC Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: You can feel what you like. If there are more than 12 receivers that outdo his production over the last 5 years let me know who they are... and that despite as you say him being a co #1 on his team. I guarantee you Diggs numbers will be right around last season again with the Bills and Thielen's numbers will be his worst career year without Diggs. Watch the Vikings film from 2018 when they were both out there. Watch how teams defend them and who they double. That tells you what people in the game think. Teams were happier to let Thielen have 8 catches a game than let Diggs have them. Julio Jones D’Andre Hopkins Michael Thomas Keenan Allen Julian Edelman Devante Adams Robert Woods Jarvis Landry Amari Cooper Mike Evans Larry Fitzgerald Antonio Brown Tyreke Hill (in 4 years) O’Dell Beckham Emanuel Sanders Brandon Cooks yeah, I’m done with this game, point proven. 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I take a fan's ability.to judge Edmunds vs. Milano as a basic litmus test for how well they can evaluate players. If you think Milano is more valuable you don't have a fundamental understanding of what they are asked to do and how they affect the offense. I appreciate what Milano can do but OCs aren't game planning around him the way they do for Edmunds. They aren’t planning around anybody on this D outside of Tre and the Safties. Nobody is good enough to be a concern. Milano created a bigger hole when he went down, than when Edmunds was out, so take it for whatever you want, but the facts remain. Milano is average and he’s harder to replace than Edmunds. That’s not a good sign.
DCofNC Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Yea it is. His initial comment that he still hasn't completely justified the pick I can get on board with. But saying he doesn't impact games is ridiculous. I expect Edmunds to make the final step this season to where he is most definitely in Beane's elite player drafted column. He isn't there yet but I think by January he will be. Yes but melt down and restart isn't an option in Cincy either. While Mike Brown owns the franchise and runs it like a semi-pro team you cannot win a Championship there. To quote the great Bill Parcells, “Potential means you haven’t done ***** yet”. That’s where all these guys are. Potential to be great, still haven’t done it. They are good players, outside of Buffalo, they aren’t considered special.
HappyDays Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, DCofNC said: They aren’t planning around anybody on this D outside of Tre and the Safties Really, you don't think OCs are game planning for the athletic freak clogging up passing lanes in the middle of the field? Alright.
GunnerBill Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 34 minutes ago, DCofNC said: To quote the great Bill Parcells, “Potential means you haven’t done ***** yet”. That’s where all these guys are. Potential to be great, still haven’t done it. They are good players, outside of Buffalo, they aren’t considered special. I agree with you. I think Allen, Edmunds and Oliver have to do it to be considered great and they haven't yet. But you are wrong about Edmunds not making impact. He impacts teams passing games against the Bills every single week. He is already for my money a top 5 linebacker in the NFL against the pass. At the moment he is still bottom half against the run. He improved in 2019 and if he can just get a bit more consistent in 2020 in that area he will be in that elite conversation. 1
GoBills808 Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 1 hour ago, DCofNC said: No, it’s absolutely the truth. He’s still a liability in the run game and hasn’t become a force in anything else. He’s a big, fast guy, as of right now, that’s it. He’s not elite, anybody who thinks he is because they watch the rest of the Bills LBs need to take a look at real LBs, the biggest weakness in this team is the LB core and it’s not close. Milano is more valuable and harder to replace than Edmunds right now. Edmunds has POTENTIAL to be great, thus far, he’s not. OK first things first...here's something NFL coaches decided a couple years ago and fans haven't caught on yet- run defense isn't really that important. You actually want your opponent to run the ball. A run play is -EV for the offense compared to a pass play, which means it's +EV for the defense. So it really doesn't matter if Edmunds is still processing responsibilities or reading the line to stay clean...that is really not a reason to knock him because of what he DOES bring to the table. He erases basically everything tackle to tackle underneath and out to maybe 20 yards downfield- that's an enormous advantage when you have one side of the field shut down due to White. And now that they're starting to send him in pass rush he's already one of the more versatile MLBs in the game. Milano is a decent piece, albeit replaceable. Edmunds and White are the reason this defense works. 2
JohnNord Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 2 hours ago, BarleyNY said: Epensa was the 54th overall pick. You can’t find other examples of players drafted around that spot that didn’t dress or play in their first NFL game? And I’d note that in this case the player didn’t have a OTAs, a full training camp or 4 preseason games to get ready and we still aren’t even sure that he’s not dressing. Ok but we’re talking 1st or 2nd DE’s. That’s a position that rookies can jump and contribute early. Name a DE that was taken in the 2nd round that was a healthy scratch in his first game? I’m sure there haven’t been many and if you can find a DE that didn’t dress and turned out to be a stud, I’m sure it’s an outlier. I’m concerned that AJ has a low ceiling
Mr. K Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 I'm sure most of us are excited to see Epenesa, Olive, and Harry. Im really interested to see what kind of jump Darryl Johnson makes this year.
ColoradoBills Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 What I don't get is how did statistics and rankings become the end all of determining a players career? This is a thread about Epenesa's supposed worth as a 2nd round DE pick maybe not dressing for his first game. It's probably not even true but it has no bearing on what his career will or will not be. If Epenesa never makes a pro bowl or never is in the top 20 in sacks but has a solid 9 year career filling a position is that a failure on his part? Is it a failure on the GMs part? Are ALL 1st and 2nd round players expected to be top 10 talent? I don't know if this is caused by fantasy football or Madden or just how things are nowadays. I know I'm not the most knowledgeable football fan but I do know that a stat like sacks is not even close to determining the worth of an NFL DE yet I see it being used like that all the time. There was a huge number of fans on this board calling Shaq a bust and a lot of those same fans criticized Beane for letting him walk in FA. And yes Epenesa could be a total bust but nobody knows that yet. 1
BarleyNY Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, JohnNord said: Ok but we’re talking 1st or 2nd DE’s. That’s a position that rookies can jump and contribute early. Name a DE that was taken in the 2nd round that was a healthy scratch in his first game? I’m sure there haven’t been many and if you can find a DE that didn’t dress and turned out to be a stud, I’m sure it’s an outlier. I’m concerned that AJ has a low ceiling You have a lot wrong here. First off, DE is absolutely not a position rookies jump in and contribute early. Early first rounders, sure. Not so much after that. Feel free to list all of the DEs that started game 1 or even contributed early in their rookie season. I looked through last season’s first three rounds. Not a lot there as far as games started - or even played - from DEs outside the top 10 picks (Bosa, Ferrell and the other Josh Allen). Some mixed results even with those high picks too. For further comparison, the 54th player selected last season was a CB, Lonnie Johnson, who played in 11 games. I know there have been players selected at 54 and after who have come in and contributed (or even started successfully) from game one, but it’s not the norm. You might wanna let this one play out for a little while before making any judgment. Also it wouldn’t hurt to get your facts straight. 1
ehfeuh57 Posted September 12, 2020 Posted September 12, 2020 Im throwing Tomatoes 3 hours ago, BarleyNY said: Feel free to list all of the DEs that started game 1 or even contributed early in their rookie season. I looked through last season’s first three rounds. Not a lot there as far as games started - or even played - from DEs outside the top 10 picks Jevon Kearse immediately came to my mind, and i was right 14.5 sacks rookie season (16th overall pick)
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