NoSaint Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Good post and just to counter. 1 - definitely agree about Allen’s situation his rookie year. I thought the Bills were well on their way to ruining another qb. But the major difference is that the Bills had the #2 defense and the Cards had #26. Allen wasn’t in a position to have to win games where Rosen was. If Allen was playing with the 26 ranked defense, he probably forces more things. They essentially had the same rookie passing stats. But I do agree that his rushing ability would help him. 2 - I admit I thought some of the Rosen attitude stuff was BS. But I do agree Allen has an attitude that teammates love. However if a team fully invested in Rosen and he was allowed to grow as a qb, it would be similar to Rodgers’ attitude. I saw the guy make special throws on some garbage UCLA teams. He played for 2 garbage nfl teams that did nothing to help his development. Maybe he really sucks and he is too immobile for the new nfl. But I’m not willing to say that after his 2 situations so far. Hopefully, he gets a chance to learn from Brady and be given a chance to really develop. I guess we’ll see. I think a couple important things to keep in mind when framing it: neither guy was a slam dunk once in a generation prospect. Which means both guys could probably succeed in a great setting or flame out terribly in a bad setting. I don’t think allen saves anyone’s job year 1 so he’s likely getting shipped out if he goes to Arizona too. And I don’t think he’s a prospect that survives that either. personality - Yea allen is more likable. I’m not sure we look back at Rodgers, rivers, Ben, Brady etc... as particularly charming individuals.thats the better part of a generation of franchise qbs. even Russell Wilson’s had some questions about how he fits in with the guys. If you win, You win. I still think Rosen was a reasonable choice. I’m down to see where allen takes us. 1 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: You realize a QB has more opportunities to put up stats (or showcase abilities) when they have a bad defense, not fewer, as offenses are statistically more likely to run the ball when the game is close or they're ahead. You’re reaching. No qb, especially a bad one, benefits from playing with a bad defense. That makes no sense. You abandon the run and pass rushers just tee off.
NoSaint Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: You’re reaching. No qb, especially a bad one, benefits from playing with a bad defense. That makes no sense. You abandon the run and pass rushers just tee off. Yea it implies that a GM is just looking at fantasy stats and not player development. Down 4 scores he might pick up a few more yards and a garbage TD but is unlikely to actually grow a ton as a player. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: One thing when I was a "wrong Josh"er and wanted us to draft Rosen - I did NOT appreciate the "IT" factor. There is no question that whatever "IT" is, Josh Allen has "IT", in spades. The operational definition of "IT" - the ability to get people to buy in, to want to invest in you, to want to help you and do things to make you better, because you're likeable and make people laugh and they're drawn to you and want to spend time with you, and because you're the sort of person who cares about other people and wants things to be better for them, too. For sure. One thing I will never question is Allen’s attitude and leadership. The more I hear him, the more I like him. All I simply have said is I worry about is that accuracy isn’t as easy to fix as some others think. So why you might have the it factor, it won’t matter if you struggle to complete passes at a high enough level. Very anxious to see how he does this year with a lot more weapons.
GoBills808 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: You’re reaching. No qb, especially a bad one, benefits from playing with a bad defense. That makes no sense. You abandon the run and pass rushers just tee off. It give a QB more opportunities to put up statistics, which is what I said. It’s not necessarily a benefit, so I didn’t say that. You, however, tried to make the point that a good defense DOES benefit QB play, which is tenuous and unsupported by the evidence. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 Just now, GoBills808 said: It give a QB more opportunities to put up statistics, which is what I said. It’s not necessarily a benefit, so I didn’t say that. You, however, tried to make the point that a good defense DOES benefit QB play, which is tenuous and unsupported by the evidence. So your thesis is Josh Allen would benefit from playing with the 26th and 32nd ranked defenses (which Arizona and Miami have had) and Josh Rosen won’t have benefit from playing with the 2nd ranked defense? I’ll agree to disagree because I think that is absolutely crazy. 1
GoBills808 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: So your thesis is Josh Allen would benefit from playing with the 26th and 32nd ranked defenses (which Arizona and Miami have had) and Josh Rosen won’t have benefit from playing with the 2nd ranked defense? I’ll agree to disagree because I think that is absolutely crazy. The TEAM benefits from a good defense. QB abilities and performance are completely unrelated to defensive quality. 1 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: The TEAM benefits from a good defense. QB abilities and performance are completely unrelated to defensive quality. Most qbs, especially young ones, benefit from balance. See how Brady, Big Ben, Wilson were brought along. Awesome defensive teams, didn’t have to throw too much, balanced teams. When you are getting your head beaten in, you don’t have balance and your qb takes unnecessary hits. he was before my time but a lot of people say Archie Manning was awesome but got stuck on an awful franchise that ruined him. It happens all the time. Allen is in a great situation, especially now. Rosen didn’t have that luxury. He may suck but he was given a chance. 2
GoBills808 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Most qbs, especially young ones, benefit from balance. See how Brady, Big Ben, Wilson were brought along. Awesome defensive teams, didn’t have to throw too much, balanced teams. When you are getting your head beaten in, you don’t have balance and your qb takes unnecessary hits. he was before my time but a lot of people say Archie Manning was awesome but got stuck on an awful franchise that ruined him. It happens all the time. Allen is in a great situation, especially now. Rosen didn’t have that luxury. He may suck but he was given a chance. IMO make my point w/ the Wilson example. He blossomed into a top QB when that defense took a step back. Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger...there’s not much correlation between their performance and the relative quality of their defenses over time. If you want to talk about QB job security vis a vis Allen/Rosen and how that’s impacted by a good defense, I’d probably agree but that’s a different conversation.
3rdand12 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Most qbs, especially young ones, benefit from balance. See how Brady, Big Ben, Wilson were brought along. Awesome defensive teams, didn’t have to throw too much, balanced teams. When you are getting your head beaten in, you don’t have balance and your qb takes unnecessary hits. he was before my time but a lot of people say Archie Manning was awesome but got stuck on an awful franchise that ruined him. It happens all the time. Allen is in a great situation, especially now. Rosen didn’t have that luxury. He may suck but he was given a chance. Firm believer in "environment" is a major factor in a Rookie QB short and long term success. and that our Josh is the right Josh at the right time and in the right place. Go Bills 1 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: IMO make my point w/ the Wilson example. He blossomed into a top QB when that defense took a step back. Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger...there’s not much correlation between their performance and the relative quality of their defenses over time. If you want to talk about QB job security vis a vis Allen/Rosen and how that’s impacted by a good defense, I’d probably agree but that’s a different conversation. Wilson had the number 1 defense for his 4 seasons and it slipped to 3 the next year! https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/ the only time his defense was below 13th was last year in his 7th year! Seattle is routinely the most balanced team in thE nfl. 14 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said: Firm believer in "environment" is a major factor in a Rookie QB short and long term success. and that our Josh is the right Josh at the right time and in the right place. Go Bills And the flip side is a good environment can hide a bad qb (Sanchez, Bortles, Mitch T). that’s why I love our schedule this year. We have some real qbs and offenses. As much as some have anointed Allen, we averaged 19 points/ game. That won’t cut it this year.
stinky finger Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said: This makes no sense. Would a young qb be better off with the #2 defense or the #26 defense? Fun fact. The Bills, who went 10-6, averaged 19 points/ game. The Cards, who went 3-13, averaged 16 points/ game in Rosen starts in 2018. when you constantly fall behind or have a bad defense, you become one dimensional and have to force things. How many times has Allen been behind by 2 scores? It completely changes how you play. Actually, it makes plenty of sense. Defense has nothing - nothing - to do with the development of a QB.
NoSaint Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 37 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: IMO make my point w/ the Wilson example. He blossomed into a top QB when that defense took a step back. Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger...there’s not much correlation between their performance and the relative quality of their defenses over time. If you want to talk about QB job security vis a vis Allen/Rosen and how that’s impacted by a good defense, I’d probably agree but that’s a different conversation. it’s an odd parallel to compare Drew Brees or time Brady in their prime to a rookie developing qb for how a guy can develop. Are you under the impression those guys had bad defenses, bad offensive lines, and massive coaching instability around them early? Drew is the only one on your list that wasn’t handed the keys to a pretty good team out of the gate. 1
stinky finger Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 1 hour ago, NoSaint said: before kicking off his 3rd season he’s on OC number 6 and playbook number 5. Dudes got almost no chance. Tough circumstances for sure. He can deal with it best he can. He does have control of how he conducts himself not only as a player on the field but off it as well. What's abundantly clear, he has done nothing to prove to any HC, OC or otherwise to prove he's the answer to their QB quandary. Now, as I've stated previously, he still has time to prove otherwise. For the sake of his career, he's do well to start showing something - anything - soon.
NoSaint Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, inaugural balls said: Actually, it makes plenty of sense. Defense has nothing - nothing - to do with the development of a QB. Yea, playing with a lead and winning games isn’t helpful at all for a young qb 1 1
stinky finger Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 Just now, NoSaint said: Yea, playing with a lead and winning games isn’t helpful at all for a young qb My advice to the chosen one - suck it up and show me something.
stinky finger Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said: You’re reaching. No qb, especially a bad one, benefits from playing with a bad defense. That makes no sense. You abandon the run and pass rushers just tee off. So JRs agent needs to find him team with a good D, stability at the HC, OC positions, enough talented weapons and a top notch running game. Did I miss anything? It's not like house shopping. Tampa might just be his best chance. 1 hour ago, NoSaint said: I think a couple important things to keep in mind when framing it: neither guy was a slam dunk once in a generation prospect. Which means both guys could probably succeed in a great setting or flame out terribly in a bad setting. I don’t think allen saves anyone’s job year 1 so he’s likely getting shipped out if he goes to Arizona too. And I don’t think he’s a prospect that survives that either. personality - Yea allen is more likable. I’m not sure we look back at Rodgers, rivers, Ben, Brady etc... as particularly charming individuals.thats the better part of a generation of franchise qbs. even Russell Wilson’s had some questions about how he fits in with the guys. If you win, You win. I still think Rosen was a reasonable choice. I’m down to see where allen takes us. I actually think JA would have shown any organization enough to stick with him. That is, heart, desire, leadership, likability, fire. I'm sensing JR lacks in all the above. Edited September 7, 2020 by inaugural balls
NoSaint Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 31 minutes ago, inaugural balls said: So JRs agent needs to find him team with a good D, stability at the HC, OC positions, enough talented weapons and a top notch running game. Did I miss anything? It's not like house shopping. Tampa might just be his best chance. I actually think JA would have shown any organization enough to stick with him. That is, heart, desire, leadership, likability, fire. I'm sensing JR lacks in all the above. So you think if his coordinator was fired mid season and then head coach at the end of the season the super raw polarizing prospect would shined so bright that no organization would move on for their own pick to fit their own plans? Cool. 1
RochesterRob Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 WNY masochists will have to find a new player to fulfill their Sunday afternoons this fall.
stinky finger Posted September 7, 2020 Posted September 7, 2020 38 minutes ago, NoSaint said: So you think if his coordinator was fired mid season and then head coach at the end of the season the super raw polarizing prospect would shined so bright that no organization would move on for their own pick to fit their own plans? Cool. Well, maybe. I'm quite confident he'd have stood a better chance.
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