Dominant CB or DE...which would you rather have?

[LabattBlue]

With a decision coming up in the next year on the future of NC as a Bill, I was thinking about what position I would rather invest HUGE dollars in....DE or CB? Yes Schobel is a nice player and Kelsay has some potential, but I'm talking about the kind of DE that can consistently generate the kind of pass rush that takes the pressure of your CB's. Currently, that kind of pressure on the QB by the Bills defense, is primarily being achieved via blitzing.

 

I am not sure who may be available in the draft, F/A or via trade next year, but if the opportunity presented itself, I would choose to invest in a difference making DE.

 

What say you....DE or CB?

[finknottle]

What say you....DE or CB?

310901[/snapback]

 

Definately DE. Today's best offenses flood the defense with 3+ good receivers instead of one great one. You put your shutdown corner on their best receiver and their dropoff is not that much. That means - as we so painfully saw a few seasons ago - your pass defense is really only as good as your #3 corner.

 

Better to get a dominant DE and have solid if unspectacular depth in the secondary.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

I'm gonna use an example. If you're asking whether I would rather have the best cb in the game a chris mcallister or the best de in the game in Julius Peppers. Hands down I would chose Peppers.

 

 

Good secondary's while nice to have become overly expensive, and I'm strict advocate that to build any successful team on either side of the ball it all starts up front. I'm gonna use another example. Go Watch footage of denver last year at how many times Toast Bailey got lit up. The Broncos have that problem cause they have zero pass rush. Don't get me wrong they get sacks and are an ok defense, but they're ultra conservative and don't apply consistent pressure leading to stranding bailey out on an island. I'd take an average secondary such as the jets for example with their dline they're gonna look ok, even though they have their holes, their defense is good because it all starts up front.

 

 

Give me A Dominant DE over a Dominant CB anyday of the week.

[d_wag]

i would take the DE as well........unfortunately, they rarely hit free agency......

 

we do have a CB who will be dominant the next 5 seasons........given the opportunity to lock him in for that period of time, the bills should not hesitate........they are almost as hard to find.......

[mead107]

i would like to see a DE. fast and strong .

[jarthur31]

Right now the Bills need a DE who can generate a nice pass rush consistently.

[AKC]

In the same way that a great DB feeds off the rush of a great DE, the great DE is reliant on the push of a dominant DT. Great DEs are nearly completely neutralized when they play with average DTs since half their threat area is removed and the job of the OT gets easier by more than half.

 

If you want to find out which of the three positions is the most valuable take a look at NEs first round picks the past two seasons- both DTs. And this is a team that plays predominantly out of a 3-4.

[Rico]

I'd rather have a dominant DE...

but I would rather have a dominant CB than a half-way decent RT.

[Kelly the Dog]

In the same way that a great DB feeds off the rush of a great DE, the great DE is reliant on the push of a dominant DT. Great DEs are nearly completely neutralized when they play with average DTs since half their threat area is removed and the job of the OT gets easier by more than half.

 

If you want to find out which of the three positions is the most valuable take a look at NEs first round picks the past two seasons- both DTs. And this is a team that plays predominantly out of a 3-4.

310916[/snapback]

Agreed. IMO, TKO is our best defensive player, and it's arguable that Nate Clements is our second best defensive player. Our most valuable defensive player is Sam Adams.

[Dawgg]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I'd rather have a dominant cornerback. Yeah, that's right.

 

If you proposed this scenario 10-12 years ago, I would say without doubt, a defensive end. However, recently offenses have seen a vast expansion in the passing attack, utilizing formations with 3, 4 and even 5 receivers to spread the defense out. A physical, tough shutdown corner can neutralize the offense's biggest weapon and that in and of itself handicaps the quarterback.

 

I'll give you two real-world scenarios:

 

1) The Bills managed to completely neutralize Jason Taylor in both meetings by simpily taking him out of the game.

 

2) Remember New England's Super Bowl runs in which Ty Law shut down Marvin Harrison?

 

 

With a decision coming up in the next year on the future of NC as a Bill, I was thinking about what position I would rather invest HUGE dollars in....DE or CB?  Yes Schobel is a nice player and Kelsay has some potential, but I'm talking about the kind of DE that can consistently generate the kind of pass rush that takes the pressure of your CB's.  Currently, that kind of pressure on the QB by the Bills defense, is primarily being achieved via blitzing.

 

I am not sure who may be available in the draft, F/A or via trade next year, but if the opportunity presented itself, I would choose to invest in a difference making DE.  

 

What say you....DE or CB?

310901[/snapback]

[Campy]

Definately DE. Today's best offenses flood the defense with 3+ good receivers instead of one great one. You put your shutdown corner on their best receiver and their dropoff is not that much. That means - as we so painfully saw a few seasons ago - your pass defense is really only as good as your #3 corner.

 

Better to get a dominant DE and have solid if unspectacular depth in the secondary.

310907[/snapback]

Yup. And I'll take my chances with our top 3 corners IF we can get some pressure.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

In the same way that a great DB feeds off the rush of a great DE, the great DE is reliant on the push of a dominant DT. Great DEs are nearly completely neutralized when they play with average DTs since half their threat area is removed and the job of the OT gets easier by more than half.

 

If you want to find out which of the three positions is the most valuable take a look at NEs first round picks the past two seasons- both DTs. And this is a team that plays predominantly out of a 3-4.

310916[/snapback]

 

 

While you have somewhat of a valid point what you say is true to a certain extent. Yes the presence of good dt's help out de's, but I also think it works the other way around. Call them exceptions if you will.

 

Last season Julius Peppers had his best season yet after carolina lost all pro dt Kris Jenkins. Recorded 11 sacks and 2 interceptions

 

 

Dwight Freeney is another example. The colts have no dt's of which to speak of and Freeney plays with well below average dt's and still takes over games. 16 sacks and at times was indy's only source of defense along with mathis who recorded 14 sacks.

 

Theres also Jason Taylor who despite losing both his starting dt's to injury recorded 10 sacks.

 

Now while obviousily I named some of the best de's in the game, but they are great de's who weren't neutralized by the play of their average dt's.

 

Now onto ne. While obviousily blessed with tremendous line depth. In a 3-4 defense de's imo are more important. Jarvis Green and Richard Seymour are tremendous at holding the point of attack at de. Great at stopping the run and great at holding point leading to their aggressive style of play on passing downs. Other than Aaaron Smith from pitt, Richard Seymour might be the best 3-4 de in the league

[renfruzetz]

With Bruce, Peppers or a healthy Kearse, the CB never comes into play.

Snap, drop, crush.

[MrLocke]

With a decision coming up in the next year on the future of NC as a Bill, I was thinking about what position I would rather invest HUGE dollars in....DE or CB?  Yes Schobel is a nice player and Kelsay has some potential, but I'm talking about the kind of DE that can consistently generate the kind of pass rush that takes the pressure of your CB's.  Currently, that kind of pressure on the QB by the Bills defense, is primarily being achieved via blitzing.

 

I am not sure who may be available in the draft, F/A or via trade next year, but if the opportunity presented itself, I would choose to invest in a difference making DE. 

 

What say you....DE or CB?

310901[/snapback]

 

I agree assuming someone is younger. it;s just that they would have to be the total package in that they would be playing left endso they would have to be able to stuff the run as well. Also a dominant end opposite Schobel could do wonders for him.

[AKC]

Last season Julius Peppers had his best season yet after carolina lost all pro dt Kris Jenkins. Recorded 11 sacks and 2 interceptions

Dwight Freeney is another example.  The colts have no dt's of which to speak of and Freeney plays with well below average dt's and still takes over games. 16 sacks and at times was indy's only source of defense along with mathis who recorded 14 sacks.

 

Theres also Jason Taylor who despite losing both his starting dt's to injury recorded 10 sacks.

 

310931[/snapback]

 

I think a lot of coaches would love to add Brenston Buckner to their interior line ;-)

 

Freeney plays next to DTs in a one-gap scheme that's fairly unique in the league today, even then Reagor picked up 5 sacks during the '05 season. An outing like that for a DT might make Reagor take some offense to hearing that he's "no DT to speak of". Even then sack totals for DTs don't mean as much as push, but clearly the Indy interior flushes QBs back where Freeney becomes the most dangerous. The bottom line is that opposing QBs for the most part aren't stepping into the pocket against Indy and diminishing Freeney's strength. That's good play from your interior line and it's something Dungy does as good as any coach league-wide. Again you have the chicken and the egg- is Dungy's interior philosophy so good that he makes his outside rushers look better than they are? History on his teams might just support this-

 

Dwayne Robertson gets a lot of flack for not living up to his potential as an early pick from the NY media- but is it justified completely? He was the trigger for the Jet's top 5 rushing D finish in '04 and he applied pressure on passing downs when he was on the field. Is he a dominant interior lineman today? Let's say no- but he may be on his way to becoming one. I think it'd be a real oversight to classify him as a "poor" or "below average" DT.

 

I'm in my 4th year of supporting the DT as the new most critical position in the NFL, due in large part to the renewed success of the pitch and chuck WC style offense we've seen revived (in our division). The most fundamental way to destroy a three step offense is to push the OL into the QB's face. If you started a 27 year old Deacon Jones and a 28 year old Bruce Smith against a pitch and chuck you'd do little to disrupt the flow unless you've got the ponies in the middle to make the QB move his feet and miss his short reads and the windows those routes rely upon on that third step. More of the better big athletes in college are choosing to play the interior DLine because teams are paying bigger bucks for talent there, and the cycle will come around IMO where there will be too many superior interior DLinemen for a team to make a living playing the god-awful "little-ball" offense that's a winner in the contemporary NFL. No doubt it's slick, no doubt there's hardware to show for it right now- but the middle of the DLine is where it will end. Some teams recognize it, not surprisingly Belichick and Paoli- maybe this draft gives us an indication of whether TD recognizes it or possibly if he thinks Tim Anderson is going to be a lot better player than his reps to date suggest to the fan. While I realize PatW was being moved off in passing situations it's hard to imagine the trio we have now being anywhere as effective overall without at minimum one additional quality player being added.

 

Removing the "General Philosophy" theme and focusing on us- our CB needs should be able to be addressed in round 3-5. Kevin Thomas still has good value and we're exclusively drafting for depth. IMO we have all the talent necessary to win it all at DE right now. Where we have a drop off is at DT, and the guys who will suffer will be the men behind them. If Ron Edwards is playing most of our 1st and 2nd downs this season I suspect it will be a VERY long season for one of my favorite hustlers London Fletcher.

[Bob in SC]

Yup.  And I'll take my chances with our top 3 corners IF we can get some pressure.

310925[/snapback]

 

Some good points here. Corners don't get the glory very often, but they quietly win games (often with what they don't allow to happen rather than what they exhibit). Have you ever known a Super Bowl champion who DIDN'T have pretty good ones? Our DEs and CBs are good enough. However, somewhat off topic, I really think a first rate place kicker who can give us good field position on kickoffs and can make the long one's consistently under pressure is worth more than either that superstar DE or corner. Nugent? How many games are won or lost by the kicker?!

[clumping platelets]

Dominant DE allows you to have lesser talent in the secondary

[KRT88]

a truly dominate DE, like a Bruce Smith, can make your CB look awful good.

 

Guys who pressure the QB, create mistakes by the QB, which can make your CB look dominate.

 

Even the best CB can't look great if you have all day to throw!

[obie_wan]

In the same way that a great DB feeds off the rush of a great DE, the great DE is reliant on the push of a dominant DT. Great DEs are nearly completely neutralized when they play with average DTs since half their threat area is removed and the job of the OT gets easier by more than half.

 

If you want to find out which of the three positions is the most valuable take a look at NEs first round picks the past two seasons- both DTs. And this is a team that plays predominantly out of a 3-4.

310916[/snapback]

 

you are corect.

 

the best way to disrupt a quick release passing game is to push the pocket up the middle to disrupt the timing. This in turn prevents the OL from doubling the DE's who become much more effective pass rushers

 

should have picked Vince Wilfork last year

[BuckeyeBill]

So you are basically asking if we want Nate Odomes or Bruce Smith.

 

Hm..... I think that's a no brainer.

 

I miss a dominant Defensive End as much as anyone. They are just sooo rare, while dominant corners are more common than you think.