Bills announce no fans for 1st 2 home games

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

No, there's a 150 page thread on PPP about conspiracy theories. We'll leave that nonsense there.

 

I'm talking about a well documented case of a COVID data scientist filing a whistle-blowers complaint and being fired for refusing to manipulate data.

 

 

Regardless, that isnt the main point.

 

The main point is that while those two pictures look nice next to each other, and are super convenient because it helps take all the critical thinking out of it, they don't represent what that tweet suggests it does.

 

Are you arguing that Florida implemented and stuck to safety protocols through the entire Spring and Summer? Because we all know they did the exact opposite.

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

[billsfan89]

20 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Seems like a nice change from the previous stance which leaves the door open for fans at future games. Good call.

 

I am an extra cautious person and I think this was the right call. There likely won't be fans at games this year but why force the decision when you don't have to at the moment?

[Mr Info]

27 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

I have tried not to comment on these type of discussions but will add something here.

 

FL is #5 in deaths in the USA. At current rates it may be #3 sometime in Sept.

That may not represent ‘sensible, target safety measures’. I may not agree with the complete lockdowns either. But could FL have saved a few thousand lives by requiring masks rather than advising to wear them? Is it really that much of an imposition to wear a mask when not eating, exercising, etc.?

Edited August 26, 2020 by Mr Info

[DrDawkinstein]

32 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

 

They implemented nothing.

 

They had Spring Break as if it was any other year, were late to finally close, and then quickly re-opened before anyone else. Now they're seeing a surge, and just broke the nation-wide record for most cases reported in a day (previously held by NY).

 

The best thing they have going for them is all those Spring Breakers went home and spread the virus in other states instead of just keeping it in Florida. Great win.

[LB3]

35 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'm talking about a well documented case of a COVID data scientist filing a whistle-blowers complaint and being fired for refusing to manipulate data.

The reasons for her firing vary. Let's also be fair here. She might not be demon sperm crazy, but I'd say she's firmly in the "Danger Zone".

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

They implemented nothing.

 

They had Spring Break as if it was any other year, were late to finally close, and then quickly re-opened before anyone else. Now they're seeing a surge, and just broke the nation-wide record for most cases reported in a day (previously held by NY).

 

The best thing they have going for them is all those Spring Breakers went home and spread the virus in other states instead of just keeping it in Florida. Great win.

 

This is the type of hyperbole that has caused this whole thing to get so out of control.  To be honest, I don't really care about total infections. I care about deaths. And I say with full consideration that there is ample anecdotal evidence of significant complications aside from just deaths. I don't use the term "anecdotal" in a pejorative way; rather, my point is there is no indication that those non-death complications are so frequent that they present a serious concern to the general public at large.  Now, here is why I don't care about the total number of cases: Florida's COVID positive population is significantly younger than was New York's. Hence, why there are so fewer deaths--sure, better treatments and more hospital beds is also a factor.  Still, Florida understood that protecting vulnerable populations was always more important, and which was a step it never ceased.  The only precautions are not just wearing masks or complete shut downs.  Are they seeing a surge? Sure. But that surge does not present the significant danger (that we were caused to be so afraid of), because the sick population is so much younger and because the surge was spread out over a longer period of time, which was always the goal--to slow the spread. 

22 minutes ago, Mr Info said:

I have tried not to comment on these type of discussions but will add something here.

 

FL is #5 in deaths in the USA. At current rates it may be #3 sometime in Sept.

That may not represent ‘sensible, target safety measures’. I may not agree with the complete lockdowns either. But could FL have saved a few thousand lives by requiring masks rather than advising to wear them? Is it really that much of an imposition to wear a mask when not eating, exercising, etc.?

 

I mean I wear masks, but I am also just libertarian enough that I think seat belt laws are garbage.  

[RiotAct]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/state-and-regional/impact-of-local-covid-19-cases-on-bills-fans-and-issues-with-airports-and-gyms/article_a50fdfd6-e7b1-11ea-9e14-c3a220fb18bf.amp.html

 

 

Despite continued discussion and work on a "return-to-the-stadium plan," and hopes that the stadium will be opened to fans in October, Poloncarz said no plan can move forward while the region's confirmed case numbers remain consistently above the state average.

"If the numbers don't go down and we're still the highest part of New York State, I'm doubtful that we're going to see games in October be allowed," he said. "It's in everyone's hands. If you like going to a Bills game, be smart out there. Wear a mask. Try to safely socially distance when you can."

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

This is the type of hyperbole that has caused this whole thing to get so out of control.  To be honest, I don't really care about total infections. I care about deaths. And I say with full consideration that there is ample anecdotal evidence of significant complications aside from just deaths. I don't use the term "anecdotal" in a pejorative way; rather, my point is there is no indication that those non-death complications are so frequent that they present a serious concern to the general public at large.  Now, here is why I don't care about the total number of cases: Florida's COVID positive population is significantly younger than was New York's. Hence, why there are so fewer deaths--sure, better treatments and more hospital beds is also a factor.  Still, Florida understood that protecting vulnerable populations was always more important, and which was a step it never ceased.  The only precautions are not just wearing masks or complete shut downs.  Are they seeing a surge? Sure. But that surge does not present the significant danger (that we were caused to be so afraid of), because the sick population is so much younger and because the surge was spread out over a longer period of time, which was always the goal--to slow the spread. 

 

I mean I wear masks, but I am also just libertarian enough that I think seat belt laws are garbage.  

 

Do you really believe that non-lethal complications of COVID on symptomatic patients are so rare that you can describe them as "anecdotal"?  I'm asking seriously.  In medicine, events must but of the utmost rarity to be described as anecdotal.

 

Also, specifically what did Florida, uniquely, do  (and never cease doing) to  "protect its most vulnerable population"?

 

Finally, going from 70 deaths a day and 2-5% positive in the beginning of June to over 11,000 cases a day a month later and up to 15,000+ per day soon after with by the end of July,  4 straight days of record death tolls peaking at over 250 a day (it would go higher in a week) and a positive rate of 20% is how you would  accurately described as "slowing the spread" over a "long period of time"?

Edited August 27, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[Buffalo Bear]

On 8/25/2020 at 4:22 PM, mushypeaches said:

 

I think there's about 175,000 reasons not to allow fans into games.  But don't let that stand in the way of reason and prudence

Search "USA Total Death Rate" . . . it's the same as every other year.  We have another "swine flu" on our hands but blown way out of proportion for political reasons and so big pharma can try to get you on that yearly Netflix subscription vaccine regiment.  Stop being a ######.

[Locomark]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:36 PM, Green Lightning said:

 Honestly not everybody's in idiot. I think generally people respect rules and regulations and in a smaller group with more supervision would be fine.  I think we need to expect the best from people.  I honestly expect they would understand that they represent all of us and behave accordingly. 

Lets assume everyone going to the game is drinking or at least pretty rowdy. I know that I go to the game pretty intense and loud but also to drink before hand. So let’s assume behaviors of people going to the game are more similar to those behaviors of people in bars.  Currently most major COVID outbreaks are coming from college campuses bars. Alabama, Notre Dame, Ohio State all opened to immediate COVID outbreaks due to bars and had to shut down the local bars. I think the smarter NFL owners fear the lack of ability to control the behavior of people outside and then inside the stadium when they have been drinking. Once those 12,000 people decide to get inside the stadium, say they decide to all gather on one side of the stadium and say “F the distancing.” Are 200 rental employees going to stop them ? No, they will get out of the way and watch and you will be on the nightly news minutes later. The Bills owners want to make sure they have seen all the variations on things that can go wrong before they just open the gates and hope for the best. I don’t blame them. I bet they are using the state as a crutch because it helps direct anger away from them. The Pegulas are smart. They know we have the potential for a long playoff filled season so why not get it done right. We will have fans later and if we don’t, it’s likely because the virus is back with a vengeance and then there won’t be a full season and likely no one will have fans and all sorts of strange alternatives could shake out after a delay. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Locomark

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

22 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

I think the weather thing is overblown. Any team in northeast is used to cold, rain, wind, and snow. Even teams who play in warm weather cities or in domes have many players on the roster who played in the cold in college like Penn St for example. Weather can help as do the fans but ultimately it comes down to how the Bills play on the field. I remember during the Super Bowl years the Bills rarely lost at home. They were just as dominant as the Chiefs are in Arrowhead and Seahawks have been at Century Link.

Say the NFL PLAYOFFS were to go into a Bubble Format.

 

and teams like Green Bay, Steelers or Buffalo went from January playoff games against warm climate teams and instead having to play them in Vegas/Atlanta/Houston.

 

I think that makes a much bigger difference than fans yelling.

[BullBuchanan]

19 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

By every measure, Florida has been a disaster. Comparing it to NY leaves out the most important details that NY was essentially Ground Zero in the US and they had to fight the worst part of the virus blind, learning as they went. They had to deal with PPE shortages and an Executive Branch pushing false narratives and holding a hand behind their back. Florida not only had months of lead time to prepare, but they had a playbook that they could use, and should have known far more of the science than they did. The fact that the virus was less potent and fatal by the time it reached the south, should be absolutely no complement to them at all. It was dumb luck that not as many people have gotten seriously sick/died in Florida and Texas, but the results in both states are far, far worse than they ever should have been.

Edited August 27, 2020 by BullBuchanan

[Green Lightning]

4 hours ago, Locomark said:

Lets assume everyone going to the game is drinking or at least pretty rowdy. I know that I go to the game pretty intense and loud but also to drink before hand. So let’s assume behaviors of people going to the game are more similar to those behaviors of people in bars.  Currently most major COVID outbreaks are coming from college campuses bars. Alabama, Notre Dame, Ohio State all opened to immediate COVID outbreaks due to bars and had to shut down the local bars. I think the smarter NFL owners fear the lack of ability to control the behavior of people outside and then inside the stadium when they have been drinking. Once those 12,000 people decide to get inside the stadium, say they decide to all gather on one side of the stadium and say “F the distancing.” Are 200 rental employees going to stop them ? No, they will get out of the way and watch and you will be on the nightly news minutes later. The Bills owners want to make sure they have seen all the variations on things that can go wrong before they just open the gates and hope for the best. I don’t blame them. I bet they are using the state as a crutch because it helps direct anger away from them. The Pegulas are smart. They know we have the potential for a long playoff filled season so why not get it done right. We will have fans later and if we don’t, it’s likely because the virus is back with a vengeance and then there won’t be a full season and likely no one will have fans and all sorts of strange alternatives could shake out after a delay. 

We'll see after we play other teams stadiums that have fans. I think instead of throwing up our hands and dismissing this, why not limit other factors such as alcohol, etc. Other teams will have fans, let's see how they handle it. I think it will go just fine.

On 8/26/2020 at 8:35 AM, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Many.  Many wins and many loses.  Crowd screamed just as loud for both.

Fan noise at crucial parts of games is impactful. Maybe we've been to different games.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Buffalo Bear said:

Search "USA Total Death Rate" . . . it's the same as every other year.

 

It's not, actually. 

Here's a piece by that known "liberal rag" Marketwatch <-that's sarcasm

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-excess-deaths-tally-in-the-us-is-204691-in-7-months-so-covid-19-deaths-might-be-undercounted-2020-08-13

Stat news piece

https://www.statnews.com/2020/08/03/measuring-excess-mortality-gives-clearer-picture-pandemics-true-burden/

media bias e v a l of statnews: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/stat-news/

CDC data:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

 

Now, Where did you get the notion that the USA total deaths are the same as every other year?

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

20 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

They need to jack up the ticket prices then.  Never let a tragedy go to waste.

Supply and Demand.....they will be able to.....  This is just going to be a weird season, some will see it as a "competitive disadvantage" for some teams to have 13,000 fans and others to have 0.  The NFL is going to generate every dollar they can in revenue even if there is some perceived imbalance.   You can pump in 80db or something anyway.   Not sure how much 13,000 fans can really influence anything one way or the other.  

[Saxum]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:21 PM, Green Lightning said:

I just had dinner at a restaurant,  inside, no masks at the tables six feet apart, that’s okay. I can go the the gym soon, use the same equipment everybody else is touching, that's okay. Soon I can  even take a group exercise class in a room with others six feet apart but breathing hard, that's okay. I can protest with hundreds of others, that's okay. But I can't sit outside, in a mask, with 13,000 people in a stadium built for 70,000?  

 

You can jump off a cliff with other lemmings if you want.

 

Can is just what is possible to do not what you should do or what is smart to do.

[Green Lightning]

10 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

You can jump off a cliff with other lemmings if you want.

 

Can is just what is possible to do not what you should do or what is smart to do.

Well that made zero sense. Maybe try again when whatever you were taking wears off.

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

On 8/27/2020 at 11:08 AM, Green Lightning said:

We'll see after we play other teams stadiums that have fans. I think instead of throwing up our hands and dismissing this, why not limit other factors such as alcohol, etc. Other teams will have fans, let's see how they handle it. I think it will go just fine.

Fan noise at crucial parts of games is impactful. Maybe we've been to different games.

When there are 79 thousand fans screaming their butts off...and Brady still drives the Patriots to a game winning drive...what does that show you?

[Nextmanup]

2 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

When there are 79 thousand fans screaming their butts off...and Brady still drives the Patriots to a game winning drive...what does that show you?

I do think fan noise can aid the home team defense, and it can also buoy the spirits of the home team in all facets of the game to maybe deliver a bit more than normal because they are filled with emotion and energy stemming from the fanbase.  

 

How truly impactful are these factors?  It's hard to quantify, if not impossible, and I would suggest they are subtle.  

But they are also real.

 

 

[SCBills]

2,000 fans for Austin Peay vs Central Arkansas last night in Montgomery, Alabama... but we can’t have fans in September...