[Misleading Title] Mr Negativity

[Bill from NYC]

4 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 Again, sorry, I got a GD tooth infection and I'm fussy. 

Did covid or the president cause the toothache?

 

JK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have had my share and they are awful. At some point get implants if need be, they are great. Feel better!

[BuffaloBob]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

48 deaths per 100,000 v. 169 deaths per 100,000

 

I don't know the exact figure, but Florida's mortality rate is between 1-2%, and New York's was like 5-6%. 

 

There is no debating Florida did significantly better than New York. 

This is another typical failure to understand the data that you are so blithely comparing as if they are otherwise equivalent so you can draw a conclusion that is not supported by the data.

 

The most blatant error in your syllogism is failing to appreciate that, during the early part of the pandemic, there were barely enough tests around to test the people showing up at hospitals, let alone test people who were having more mild symptoms or none at all.  And even large numbers of those people being admitted at hospitals weren't tested, because doctors knew what they had when they showed up.  These people were not being counted because test kits were to precious to be used simply to confirm what hey already knew. 

 

In the present, testing has become far more widespread and available, which means that many times the number of people are being tested than were being tested back then, which dilutes the fatality rate per number of tested cases accordingly.  It has NOTHING to do with how the medical profession in NY was treating their patients vs how Florida's health professionals were treating theirs.  Not only is the comparison of deaths per "positive case" between the two moments in time apples and oranges, but no doubt medical professionals all over the country as well as the world have benefited from what was learned from medical professionals sharing their treatment experiences in what works and what doesn't.  So that is yet another flaw in your comparison of the two percentages.  Of course the outcomes of cases are going to steadily benefit from the experience gained from the earlier ones.

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

0.1% of the population is actually 331,290 people.  

Yes, but he said to save .01%.

[blacklabel]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

Did covid or the president cause the toothache?

 

JK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I have had my share and they are awful. At some point get implants if need be, they are great. Feel better!

 

Oh man, if I could do implants, I would. Been thru the ringer with the dentist. Had a drill dropped on my face, stabbed in the gums, said, "Ow, I can still feel that" and was met with, "Nah, you're fine, hold still." Braces, fillings, root canals, apeico, etc. I'll blame mom and dad for the soft teeth genes but I wanna simultaneously punch my "I didn't have a cavity until I was 41" brother. 

[BuffaloBob]

23 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

How many of these deaths were due to what happened in NY nursing homes? How many deaths were falsely attributed to covid19?

 

These might be good questions to ask the dementia patient running for president, or even his degenerate thief kid.

Well, if I was into conspiracy theories, and right wing propaganda blather instead of facts, I might agree.  But I don't, so I'm not interested.

 

Just curious, but do you actually use seasonal flu numbers in arguments to demonstrate how COVID-19 is just like the flu?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Edited August 24, 2020 by BuffaloBob

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBob said:

 

Just curious, but do you actually use seasonal flu numbers in arguments to demonstrate how COVID-19 is just like the flu?  Inquiring minds want to know.

No, nor did I mention the flu at all. You question was rather stupid tbh.

7 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

Oh man, if I could do implants, I would. Been thru the ringer with the dentist. Had a drill dropped on my face, stabbed in the gums, said, "Ow, I can still feel that" and was met with, "Nah, you're fine, hold still." Braces, fillings, root canals, apeico, etc. I'll blame mom and dad for the soft teeth genes but I wanna simultaneously punch my "I didn't have a cavity until I was 41" brother. 

Save your money and get them asap. They will make a big difference in your life.

 

Again, feel better!!!

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

23 minutes ago, BuffaloBob said:

This is another typical failure to understand the data that you are so blithely comparing as if they are otherwise equivalent so you can draw a conclusion that is not supported by the data.

 

The most blatant error in your syllogism is failing to appreciate that, during the early part of the pandemic, there were barely enough tests around to test the people showing up at hospitals, let alone test people who were having more mild symptoms or none at all.  And even large numbers of those people being admitted at hospitals weren't tested, because doctors knew what they had when they showed up.  These people were not being counted because test kits were to precious to be used simply to confirm what hey already knew. 

 

In the present, testing has become far more widespread and available, which means that many times the number of people are being tested than were being tested back then, which dilutes the fatality rate per number of tested cases accordingly.  It has NOTHING to do with how the medical profession in NY was treating their patients vs how Florida's health professionals were treating theirs.  Not only is the comparison of deaths per "positive case" between the two moments in time apples and oranges, but no doubt medical professionals all over the country as well as the world have benefited from what was learned from medical professionals sharing their treatment experiences in what works and what doesn't.  So that is yet another flaw in your comparison of the two percentages.  Of course the outcomes of cases are going to steadily benefit from the experience gained from the earlier ones.

Yes, but he said to save .01%.

 

This response is super aggressive. I'm not really sure what I said to deserve to be insulted. If you ever wonder how this whole situation got so political, or why there is so much animosity, I'd suggest taking a hard look in the mirror. 

 

In any event, your response largely confirms what I said in the first place: Florida did better than New York. First, as you point out, Florida's testing protocol was far superior. Second, Florida did a better job of treating its COVID patients. Big picture aside, what Florida really did different was emphasize keeping high risk patients protected.  Something New York obviously didn't do--I'm sure I don't need to bring up the whole Nursing Home fiasco.  They knew young people could sick with relatively little consequence (key word there is relatively), whereas they needed to do whatever necessary to protect the sick and elderly.  This is part of the reason the mortality rate in Florida is so much lower. 

 

I appreciate the "excuses" that you are making for New York, but none of it means that Florida did not do a better job than New York.  

Edited August 24, 2020 by JoshAllenHasBigHands

[BuffaloBob]

28 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

No, nor did I mention the flu at all. You question was rather stupid tbh.

You were going on about false attributions of COVID as the cause of death when it was really something else to inflate the numbers, a conspiracy for which there is zero proof BTW. 

Not only would this require some sort of mass conspiracy between health care professionals across literally thousands of different local jurisdictions, it is sort of amusing in light of the fact that certain states' executives have been caught red-handed trying to alter data to make things look better than they are.

 

But as to the question, I only ask because the data for seasonal flu fatalities is FAR less accurate than the data being collected for COVID fatalities.  The CDC does not require the reporting of EVERY flu case in the country like they are collecting for COVID.  In fact, they have only a few select participating hospitals in regions around the country who are responsible for testing for flu and reporting fatalities.  The CDC then extrapolates from those limited numbers to the rest of the country to produce a statistical range of numbers that are quite wide.  The range is eventually honed using excess fatality data gathered from the previous years for each region to identify those extra deaths that were most likely caused by the flu.  People die at home from the flu (and this year COVID) with no test to confirm it.  This data is then used to tighten the range considerably.

 

BTW, the excess fatality rate since mid-March indicates that the number of under-counted cases is well over 20,000 nationwide, and is not reflected in the current number.

 

The reason I asked that "stupid" question is that people who are willing to believe ridiculous conspiracies are often the same people who will use far less accurate statistics to support a narrative then the more accurate data that doesn't.  So not SO stupid of a question, really.

Edited August 24, 2020 by BuffaloBob

[BuffaloBob]

14 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

This response is super aggressive. I'm not really sure what I said to deserve to be insulted. If you ever wonder how this whole situation got so political, or why there is so much animosity, I'd suggest taking a hard look in the mirror. 

 

In any event, your response largely confirms what I said in the first place: Florida did better than New York. First, as you point out, Florida's testing protocol was far superior. Second, Florida did a better job of treating its COVID patients. Big picture aside, what Florida really did different was emphasize keeping high risk patients protected.  Something New York obviously didn't do--I'm sure I don't need to bring up the whole Nursing Home fiasco.  They knew young people could sick with relatively little consequence (key word there is relatively), whereas they needed to do whatever necessary to protect the sick and elderly.  This is part of the reason the mortality rate in Florida is so much lower. 

 

I appreciate the "excuses" that you are making for New York, but none of it means that Florida did not do a better job than New York.  

I was not making it political.  I am merely demonstrating that your conclusion that Florida did a better job than New York treating COVID cases based on a simple comparison of percentage of fatalities from number of positive cases is false.  People should be more careful of how they use data to support conclusions that at least appear to disparage one group from another.  Don't you agree?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, BuffaloBob said:

I was not making it political.  I am merely demonstrating that your conclusion that Florida did a better job than New York treating COVID cases based on a simple comparison of percentage of fatalities from number of positive cases is false.  People should be more careful of how they use data to support conclusions that at least appear to disparage one group from another.  Don't you agree?

 

I didn't mean to imply you made it political. My point was that people using that tone is why this whole thing got to be political. 

 

The data entirely supports my conclusion that Florida did better than New York.  I'm a huge advocate that context is often more important than data.  That said, the context supports the data here. Everyone remembers this chart:

 

 

The idea has always been to slow the spread.  The reason deaths per 100,000 people is so important is it indicates whether a state fell in the red curve or the blue curve. Remember, for months the narrative was this virus will spread, but we need to slow it down to limit deaths.  We always knew deaths were inevitable.  In New York, the State couldn't slow the spread. Florida, they did--hence they were able to treat so many more people, and why they had so fewer deaths. Unlike New York, Florida was never meaningfully over capacity. So, sure, they had different treatments, but they also had the beds and medical personnel necessary to render the treatments.  

[Bill from NYC]

21 minutes ago, BuffaloBob said:

 

The reason I asked that "stupid" question is that people who are willing to believe ridiculous conspiracies are often the same people who will use far less accurate statistics to support a narrative then the more accurate data that doesn't.  So not SO stupid of a question, really.

What happened in the NY Nursing Homes was not a ridiculous conspiracy. I have several friends who lost both parents this way, but; since this does not fit your political narrative you will dismiss it. I guess that we should leave this alone.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBob said:

Yes, but he said to save .01%.

 

Must have misread it then, my bad

[GoBills808]

45 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I didn't mean to imply you made it political. My point was that people using that tone is why this whole thing got to be political. 

 

The data entirely supports my conclusion that Florida did better than New York.  I'm a huge advocate that context is often more important than data.  That said, the context supports the data here. Everyone remembers this chart:

 

 

The idea has always been to slow the spread.  The reason deaths per 100,000 people is so important is it indicates whether a state fell in the red curve or the blue curve. Remember, for months the narrative was this virus will spread, but we need to slow it down to limit deaths.  We always knew deaths were inevitable.  In New York, the State couldn't slow the spread. Florida, they did--hence they were able to treat so many more people, and why they had so fewer deaths. Unlike New York, Florida was never meaningfully over capacity. So, sure, they had different treatments, but they also had the beds and medical personnel necessary to render the treatments.  

His point (I believe) is simply saying 'Florida did better than New York' using one single statistic, and without any meaningful context as to why one state might suffer different COVID outcomes than another, is in itself a political statement.

[WIDE LEFT]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

FYI:  My friends husband died in June from COVID.  In his 30’s, in good shape, no prior medical conditions and had no high risk factors.

 

So yeah, you’re wrong about pretty much everything you just said.  So there’s that.  

 

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

It definitely is a concern. What's the protocol if a player does indeed test positive? Do all the guys in his position group that he shares a meeting room with have to go sit out for two weeks? I mean, could you imagine something like, "Dion Dawkins tests positive for the rona, had been in close contact with every single OL and OL coach on the team" so does that mean he and all 15 other OL (yeah, yeah, I know it'll be 7 or 8 for the regular season, I'm speaking in generalities and currently there are like 15 OL in camp) have to go quarantine for two weeks? What are they gonna do, scoop up some dudes off the street, slap some pads and a helmet on them and say, "Go block Aaron Donald, fella!" It's just such an unknown variable. I think they probably should've done something like the NBA bubble. I know logistics on that are difficult but figure something out at least. 

 

Or hey, maybe our leaders could've taken this stuff seriously when they were first told of it back in November/December, we'd be in much better shape. I don't care which way you mean politically, the way this country has handled this whole thing has been a friggin' embarrassment. We got a toddler in office saying crap like, "It'll just go away!" Yeah, sure. I don't mean to go so far off topic but I'm getting tired of people not taking this thing seriously. My in-laws just HAD to go visit my brother-in-law down in Indiana. Guess who can't breathe after a few steps and shows every friggin' symptom of COVID? That's right, my conspiracy theorist brother-in-law who's been convinced all this time that all of this is just some kinda conspiratorial BS. And my mother-in-law today, "We wanted to stop by and use the grill" no, no you may not. You've been back for four days, you're both over 60, your son is suspended from his job until his results come in, go get tested! Aye yi yi. Again, sorry, I got a GD tooth infection and I'm fussy. 

Anecdotes are not evidence. The numbers are what they are. One person’s death does not change the actual facts. 

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, WIDE LEFT said:

 

Anecdotes are not evidence. The numbers are what they are. One person’s death does not change the actual facts. 

 

No one said one case changes the facts.  But I can name many cases just like this just out of the circle of people I personally know, let alone what you can find if you do some actual research.  

 

So again, nothing you actually said was accurate and was all just your opinion, not fact.  

[BuffaloBob]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

What happened in the NY Nursing Homes was not a ridiculous conspiracy. I have several friends who lost both parents this way, but; since this does not fit your political narrative you will dismiss it. I guess that we should leave this alone.

You are incorrect.  I do not have a political narrative.  I seek the truth and facts.  I did not question anything you stated regarding New York nursing homes.  I only responded to your citing of conspiracy theories trying to support the debunked notion of inflated COVID numbers and perhaps the nonsense regarding Biden's mental health and his son being a thief.

 

However, for whatever its worth, you might want to read this report that debunks the relationship between nursing home admissions and COVID deaths attributed by many to those admissions in NY.  I'm sure you will most likely dismiss it as fake news, but it seems quite thoroughly researched, and both logically and factually supported.  I would welcome reading your reactions, but it might be difficult to demonstrate why their conclusions are incorrect based on the facts and the timelines.

 

https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2020/2020-07-06_covid19_nursing_home_report.htm

Edited August 24, 2020 by BuffaloBob

[DrDawkinstein]

I'm sure this thread is going to be full of fresh and unbiased information that hasnt been previously presented a million times on the board already.

 

Let me get my COVID-Debate BINGO card out...

[Bill from NYC]

45 minutes ago, BuffaloBob said:

You are incorrect.  I do not have a political narrative.  I seek the truth and facts.  I did not question anything you stated regarding New York nursing homes.  I only responded to your citing of conspiracy theories trying to support the debunked notion of inflated COVID numbers and perhaps the nonsense regarding Biden's mental health and his son being a thief.

 

However, for whatever its worth, you might want to read this report that debunks the relationship between nursing home admissions and COVID deaths attributed by many to those admissions in NY.  I'm sure you will most likely dismiss it as fake news, but it seems quite thoroughly researched, and both logically and factually supported.  I would welcome reading your reactions, but it might be difficult to demonstrate why their conclusions are incorrect based on the facts and the timelines.

 

https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2020/2020-07-06_covid19_nursing_home_report.htm

Now THAT is funny.

[BuffaloBob]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Now THAT is funny.

Beliefs without any factual basis always are.  It's called faith-based thinking.

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBob said:

Beliefs without any factual basis always are.  It's called faith-based thinking.

 

Or in this case, Projection.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

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