machine gun kelly Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: I kind of doubt it, I think it's lower than 5th or 6th. You're right that Spotrac lists him that way now, but I believe they'll adjust that downwards as they go back and look at it. It'll come out about 16th, I believe. Their own pages don't agree right now, but they'll get around to cleaning this up. This seems to be one of those internet problems caused by everyone wanting to get everything on the net as soon as possible. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/tackle/ https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/dion-dawkins-21805/ These days when they announce contracts they always release the numbers and spin the whole thing as an extension. That way they can massage the player's ego a bit. This deal isn't four years and $60 mill. It's four more years and $60 mill more. He's now under contract for a total of five years (2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2024) and will receive during those five years $61,035,441. Spotrac does confirm that. So yeah, it's a four-year $60 mill extension, but those aren't the numbers you divide to get his average per year. His average per year is just a few thousand north of $12.2 per year. This is a team-friendly deal. Good minds Thurmon. I didn’t want to comment until it came out on Spotrac it went from four to five years. I wasn’t sure until reported if possibly they just tore up the rookie contract and gave the four year extension or was it as you stated really five years and the numbers you stated. Both sides win. Dawkins gets lifetime security, and we extend a Solid LT at a good price for five years. I hope they do the same with Milano as it would be nice to get him set up for five years at that type of deal. Spotrac has Milano at a market value of $13 mil., but if he took the same as Dawkins meaning adding a $13 mil. extension on top of his $2.13 mil., he would be an average of $10.8 mil. for the next five years. That would. Be another fair deal for another key piece. He’s not easily replaceable as has been stated by some. He’s been a steal in the fifth round for three years. 2
SoCal Deek Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 Seems to me that with Dawkins and Morse locked in they need one more O Lineman to get them where they need to be. You’d like to have three out of five in the position where you don’t worry about breaking up the communication and chemistry year after year. Who’s the third? I assume OBD is praying it’s Ford.
Orlando Buffalo Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 3 hours ago, machine gun kelly said: Good minds Thurmon. I didn’t want to comment until it came out on Spotrac it went from four to five years. I wasn’t sure until reported if possibly they just tore up the rookie contract and gave the four year extension or was it as you stated really five years and the numbers you stated. Both sides win. Dawkins gets lifetime security, and we extend a Solid LT at a good price for five years. I hope they do the same with Milano as it would be nice to get him set up for five years at that type of deal. Spotrac has Milano at a market value of $13 mil., but if he took the same as Dawkins meaning adding a $13 mil. extension on top of his $2.13 mil., he would be an average of $10.8 mil. for the next five years. That would. Be another fair deal for another key piece. He’s not easily replaceable as has been stated by some. He’s been a steal in the fifth round for three years. I appreciate the clarification and it explains why both sides did it, it guaranteed Dawkins $34 million when he knows the next two years might be slim pickings for Free agents and Buffalo gets a player on a good contract for 5 years. It makes more sense than I originally thought
Shaw66 Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 6 hours ago, GunnerBill said: He was a big part of that. He wasn't a top 5 center in the league though. Not in 2019. I would characterise him as top 5 or 6 in pass protection, bottom half in run blocking. Responding to both Gunner and Thurm here. Gunner, I think you actually prove Thurm's point a bit. There is no established methodology for ranking players by compensation. You can compare new deals, which is what Gunner is doing, or you can compare average comp going forward from here, which is what Thurm is doing, and you get different numbers. Exact placement on some theoretical list isn't important, it isn't precise. What I think almost everyone seems to agree on is that Dawkins isn't a top three tackle and he didn't get top three money. My big fear in free agency is that a really good position player squeezes top three or top one money out of management, because the player almost never turns out to be worth it., and that contract hurts the team's ability to get other talent. My fear on the other side is really good player leaves because someone else gives him top three money, and the Bills have a hold. What we know about Dawkins is that he's good and could be better and the Bills didn't drop top three money on him, so I'm happy. As for Morse, I had the same sense of his 2019 as Gunner. By the end of the year I saw him as a great technician, in the sense that he seemed to execute really well - he was in position, balanced, aware. He didn't seem to dominate physically the way a top offensive lineman does. I think, however, that that kind of technical execution excellence makes a center really valuable. The line operates very much as a unit, and the center leads the unit. What the rest of the unit sees in Morse is a guy who is going to get there for the double team every time he's supposed to get there, he's going to be seven yards downfield every time he's supposed to be there, he's going to make the right line calls every time. That is, I think Morse's consistency makes him very valuable, and may make him top 5 in a different sense. Not top 5 as a one on one physical presence, but he may bery well be top five in a unit leadership sense.
Doc Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 If he's signing a new deal, I'm betting that he gets his signing bonus now, and that would make sense as there is cap room to accommodate it. If that's true, then it's truly a 5-year ~$61M deal, which would put him at 12th among LTs. 2
Shaw66 Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 36 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Seems to me that with Dawkins and Morse locked in they need one more O Lineman to get them where they need to be. You’d like to have three out of five in the position where you don’t worry about breaking up the communication and chemistry year after year. Who’s the third? I assume OBD is praying it’s Ford. This relates to something I've been thinking about for a while. It seems clear to me that Beane has a system that helps him figure out how much he will spend on each player - he knows that if he spends too much here, it means he doesn't have enough to spend there, and he wants to stay in balance. And in the back of his head he's already figuring how he will adjust the system if he writes that big contract for Allen. He also has a system for managing talent. He seems to understand well that the team is a collection of players that keeps changing, that there's a flow of players through the organization, ever-changing. His job is to maintain a level of talent high enough to play well, and McDermott's job is keep adjusting to the flow. With respect to the offensive line, Beane's job is to be sure there's good talent on the oline, to be sure there's good experience on the oline, and to be sure that every season a majority of the guys on the line played together in Buffalo the season before. That is, sort of as you say, his job is that he always wants to have at least three veteran starters returning. As you say, he now has two (well, he already had two, because Dawkins and Morse were returning even without the Dawkins deal). And he has Spain. So he's got his three, and this is actually the first season where he's had three. Ford is still a question mark, but he's likely to be four. The point is, though, that it's very hard to have the same three for the long term, because between contracts and injuries, the personnel keeps changing. The days of keeping your line in tact for five years or more are long gone. So the point is to have some kind of rotation where you always have at least three good veterans coming back, ideally a fourth and a fifth coming back (like rookies and unproven veterans). Plus, I think we've seen over the past two years that Beane's model for adding players to this rotation is to add veterans from other team, like Winters, Boehm and Williams, plus the guys he added last year) and to sprinkle in an occasional high pick (Ford) and promising but unproven youngsters (Bates). I think that Beane's offensive line recipe looks something like that. As I said, this is the first season he's giving McDermott all of the ingredients. As I think about it, I think that's one of the reasons that they didn't feel a need to bolster the offensive line in the draft or to make a big splash in free agency at those positions. They now have their rotation in place, and all that's necessary is annual maintenance to replace guys as they get old, get injured, or don't develop. 11 minutes ago, Doc said: If he's signing a new deal, I'm betting that he gets his signing bonus now, and that would make sense as there is cap room to accommodate it. If that's true, then it's truly a 5-year ~$61M deal, which would put him at 12th among LTs. And if that's the right way to look at it, then I think it's a good deal for both sides. Dawkins could legitimately have held out 8th money, and the Bills would have liked getting away with paying 16th money, and both decided it was in their interests not to squeeze the other.
Doc Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Shaw66 said: And if that's the right way to look at it, then I think it's a good deal for both sides. Dawkins could legitimately have held out 8th money, and the Bills would have liked getting away with paying 16th money, and both decided it was in their interests not to squeeze the other. I just can't see him signing a contract that says "in a year from now you will be paid..." And spreading the signing bonus out over 5 years instead of 4 makes too much sense. And I think they wanted more and the Bills wanted to pay less, but IMHO it was a great deal. I certainly would have expected more and in a year or so, it will probably look like an even bigger bargain. Hopefully they were able to sell him on taking a discount and that they'll be able to do that with more players going forward. Edited August 14, 2020 by Doc 1
GunnerBill Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Shaw66 said: As for Morse, I had the same sense of his 2019 as Gunner. By the end of the year I saw him as a great technician, in the sense that he seemed to execute really well - he was in position, balanced, aware. He didn't seem to dominate physically the way a top offensive lineman does. I think, however, that that kind of technical execution excellence makes a center really valuable. The line operates very much as a unit, and the center leads the unit. What the rest of the unit sees in Morse is a guy who is going to get there for the double team every time he's supposed to get there, he's going to be seven yards downfield every time he's supposed to be there, he's going to make the right line calls every time. That is, I think Morse's consistency makes him very valuable, and may make him top 5 in a different sense. Not top 5 as a one on one physical presence, but he may bery well be top five in a unit leadership sense. I largely agree with this. At his best he is a top 5 center. He wasn't in 2019. Doesn't mean I don't like the signing or that he isn't valuable. But when you look at the whole package the Bills got in 2019 it wasn't better than what 27 other teams got. There was however a time when Morse was supposed to be there on a downfield block and wasn't and it was the QB keeper in the playoff game.
Andrew Son Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I largely agree with this. At his best he is a top 5 center. He wasn't in 2019. Doesn't mean I don't like the signing or that he isn't valuable. But when you look at the whole package the Bills got in 2019 it wasn't better than what 27 other teams got. There was however a time when Morse was supposed to be there on a downfield block and wasn't and it was the QB keeper in the playoff game. I thought a TE missed that block? Knox maybe?
GunnerBill Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 1 minute ago, SWATeam said: I thought a TE missed that block? Knox maybe? Morse, Ford and Knox all had a chance at it. They all ran downfield infront of the sweep and Cunningham ran right past them and made the tackle.
Shaw66 Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: There was however a time when Morse was supposed to be there on a downfield block and wasn't and it was the QB keeper in the playoff game. You think that play doesn't eat at him? I hate watching that replay. Nobody's perfect.
Doc Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 That play was ridiculous. Three guys with a chance to take him out...and he runs right through them. That was the game.
DrDawkinstein Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Doc said: I just can't see him signing a contract that says "in a year from now you will be paid..." And spreading the signing bonus out over 5 years instead of 4 makes too much sense. And I think they wanted more and the Bills wanted to pay less, but IMHO it was a great deal. I certainly would have expected more and in a year or so, it will probably look like an even bigger bargain. Hopefully they were able to sell him on taking a discount and that they'll be able to do that with more players going forward. No way he walked out of the building yesterday without a check. It's a 5 year deal. ? 1
ColoradoBills Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 It's a fair deal for both sides. Congrats Dion! Keep improving.
Fan in Chicago Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 Perhaps it has been mentioned already but.... Dawkins was picked in the last draft run by Whaley, correct ? So the 2017 draft produced Tre White, Dawkins and Milano. For all the flack he gets, Whaley should be acknoweldged for his final draft which produced 3 solid starters.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: Seems to me that with Dawkins and Morse locked in they need one more O Lineman to get them where they need to be. You’d like to have three out of five in the position where you don’t worry about breaking up the communication and chemistry year after year. Who’s the third? I assume OBD is praying it’s Ford. I think Spain is the 2nd best OL on the team next to Dawkins. 1
DrDawkinstein Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: Perhaps it has been mentioned already but.... Dawkins was picked in the last draft run by Whaley, correct ? So the 2017 draft produced Tre White, Dawkins and Milano. For all the flack he gets, Whaley should be acknoweldged for his final draft which produced 3 solid starters. His drafts produced a lot of competent/good/great players. The problem was the constant change in schemes and player needs. That 5th Round LB hit is a CLASSIC Whales move. Outside of QBs and WRs, Whaley drafted well. Even if folks dont want to hear it. The bigger problem came in "building a team" around the cap. 1
Doc Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 23 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said: Perhaps it has been mentioned already but.... Dawkins was picked in the last draft run by Whaley, correct ? So the 2017 draft produced Tre White, Dawkins and Milano. For all the flack he gets, Whaley should be acknoweldged for his final draft which produced 3 solid starters. Was it Whaley who picked them or McD?
njbuff Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, Doc said: Was it Whaley who picked them or McD? Don't let anyone fool you, it was all McDermott as everyone knew Whaley was about to be shown the door. They didn't fire Whaley in typical fashion, but we knew he was out the door nonetheless. 1
DrDawkinstein Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, Doc said: Was it Whaley who picked them or McD? Just now, njbuff said: Don't let anyone fool you, it was all McDermott as everyone knew Whaley was about to be shown the door. They didn't fire Whaley in typical fashion, but we knew he was out the door nonetheless. McD used Whaley's Team's scouting reports and player analysis. It was the info and guidance Whales gave him that allowed him to make those picks.
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