DrDawkinstein Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 ESPN+ has an article up today breaking down the different Offensive Personnel groupings, and who used them the most & least last year, and who to look out for in 2021. Link to Article The Bills had one mention, and it came in the "23" group: Quote 23 personnel (2 RBs, 3 TEs) Why it works: Also referred to as jumbo or goal-line personnel, having a two-back set with three tight ends on the field allows offenses to reduce the formation in short yardage and tight red zone situations. But as we have seen in the past, creative playcallers will bring 23 personnel on the field and spread out the formation to create matchups. The team that ran it the most: The Ravens ran 16 snaps of 23 personnel this past season, running the ball on 13 of those plays. The Buffalo Bills ranked No. 2 at 15 snaps. The team that ran it the best: We have to go with Baltimore again here, as the Ravens scored nine touchdowns on those 16 snaps. Ingram posted a league-leading six touchdown runs out of 23 personnel, while Jackson totaled three scores (two pass, one run). With the threat of downhill runs on the goal line, the scheme also gave Jackson the option to hit his tight ends on play-action. The teams that ran it the least: Twelve teams -- including the Patriots and Seahawks -- didn't run a snap last season out of 23 personnel. And that could continue with more clubs spreading the field to attack inside when the ball is in scoring position. The team to watch in 2020: Quarterback Josh Allen had three touchdown runs on the Bills' 15 snaps out of 23 personnel last season. Now, add rookie running back Zack Moss to the mix. The Utah product has the downhill traits -- size, contact balance and power -- to win with pad level on the goal line. Nothing really groundbreaking, and no mentions in the "sexier" groupings. But hey, it's not COVID related either. 3
JustWinPlease Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 Zack Moss...that's my boy! I'm telling y'all, he's taking that starting job at some point.
Jauronimo Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, JustWinPlease said: Zack Moss...that's my boy! I'm telling y'all, he's taking that starting job at some point. I don't think there is a true starting job on this squad but I wouldnt be surprised if Moss is seeing 50% of the touches by week 4. 1
machine gun kelly Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 I think it’s fluid. Motor most likely gets more yards, and Moss gets more TD’s. Besides the concern on Moss was that knee so using him judiciously makes sense. Keep him for when you need him. Dawkins, thanks for the link. I don’t know why, but when I change to the different personnel groupings, it doesn’t process. I’m sure it’s probably just my WiFi. I would gues the Ravens lead the 13 personnel grouping, but one thing is for sure you said, it’s not the 1 millionth COVID thread or turned into it. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 29 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: I don't think there is a true starting job on this squad but I wouldnt be surprised if Moss is seeing 50% of the touches by week 4. So I shouldn’t keep Singletary in my keeper fantasy league? ? I was so happy to get a Bills rb but he definitely won’t get enough touches to justify keeping him.
MJS Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 43 minutes ago, JustWinPlease said: Zack Moss...that's my boy! I'm telling y'all, he's taking that starting job at some point. Doubt it. Singletary will be the starter and shows already he is very effective at the NFL level. But Moss will be the 1b and get short yardage, goal line, and change of pace opportunities. 1
Jauronimo Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: So I shouldn’t keep Singletary in my keeper fantasy league? ? I was so happy to get a Bills rb but he definitely won’t get enough touches to justify keeping him. I think he will be a solid fantasy contributor. He will catch more balls than Moss and rack up more yardage. Moss will take the goal line carries but Allen takes much of that work anyway. 1
Jerome007 Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Jauronimo said: I don't think there is a true starting job on this squad but I wouldnt be surprised if Moss is seeing 50% of the touches by week 4. I don't care if it's 60/40 or 70/30 on way or the other if they earn it through production. It's great that this duo is a very solid and complimentary one, with both able to catch passes too. And well, injuries do happen so again having two starters is great! 1
GoBills808 Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 I'm not going through all the snaps for the whole season but I would be pry shocked if we ran this particular 3TE set only one fewer time than the Ravens, who had probably the deepest TE rotation in the league with Andrews/Hurst/Boyle and they're all threats to catch the ball...between injuries to Kroft and limitations with Smith in nonblocking roles and specifically 23 groupings where Gore is redundant, this says to me we were either greatly limited by offensive personnel (which was def the case) and/or Daboll struggles to utilize what he did have to work with which I also believe to be true 1
johnnywo Posted August 3, 2020 Posted August 3, 2020 Friends son plays at Utah.... LB Devin Llyod....really good kid. He says we are going to be very happy and surprised with Moss' production and work ethic. Super excited!
Mango Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 1 hour ago, johnnywo said: Friends son plays at Utah.... LB Devin Llyod....really good kid. He says we are going to be very happy and surprised with Moss' production and work ethic. Super excited! Do you have any friends kids friends who are like “yeah that guy is going to suck. Hopefully he manages his money well before he flames out of the league.” Haha. But seriously, thanks for the insight! 1
Thurman#1 Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 9 hours ago, GoBills808 said: I'm not going through all the snaps for the whole season but I would be pry shocked if we ran this particular 3TE set only one fewer time than the Ravens, who had probably the deepest TE rotation in the league with Andrews/Hurst/Boyle and they're all threats to catch the ball...between injuries to Kroft and limitations with Smith in nonblocking roles and specifically 23 groupings where Gore is redundant, this says to me we were either greatly limited by offensive personnel (which was def the case) and/or Daboll struggles to utilize what he did have to work with which I also believe to be true Three TDs out of 15 snaps? We were clearly very successful in that grouping. That says the opposite that there's a problem. They did really well from an unusual setup. That's good coaching. 1
GoBills808 Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said: Three TDs out of 15 snaps? We were clearly very successful in that grouping. That says the opposite that there's a problem. They did really well from an unusual setup. That's good coaching. Goal line stuff on QB keeps is my guess Nothing to write home about imo 2
DCOrange Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 7 hours ago, GoBills808 said: Goal line stuff on QB keeps is my guess Nothing to write home about imo Yeah, QB sneaks and the unsuccessful Frank Gore dives that pissed everyone off. 23 grouping isn't really something that I want to see increasing; pretty much means we're shrinking the field and making ourselves easier to defend. There's a reason Baltimore led the league using this grouping at 16 total snaps. 2
Alphadawg7 Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 23 hours ago, JustWinPlease said: Zack Moss...that's my boy! I'm telling y'all, he's taking that starting job at some point. First, McD never accelerates rookies unless he has to (Tre/Edmunds/Knox) due to there not being anyone else or an injury. Most often, he brings them along slow and makes them earn it. So Moss emerging as a starter this year is unlikely given Devins success last year and their internal love for Devin too. Unless Devin struggles in his sophomore year or gets hurt. If Devin continues his play like last year, then I don't see him surrounding the "starter" designation in 2020. That being said, I am fully confident McD will put the best players on the field, so if Moss is out performing Devin, then its still plausible to see him take over the starting duties. However, Devin was quite impressive last year, tied really for the lead in YPC in the NFL, and that was without a prolific passing game around him. So I just have confidence in him to have a good season, and for that, I think Moss will get plenty of touches, but likely wont be a starter unless Devin gets hurt. I really loved the Moss pick, but I just wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Devin as a lead back here still. I am really excited to see these two on the field, and I think it could be a lot like what Panthers had with DeAngelo and Stewart. 1
GoBills808 Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 5 hours ago, DCOrange said: Yeah, QB sneaks and the unsuccessful Frank Gore dives that pissed everyone off. 23 grouping isn't really something that I want to see increasing; pretty much means we're shrinking the field and making ourselves easier to defend. There's a reason Baltimore led the league using this grouping at 16 total snaps. Yes that was my original point; out personnel being what it was last year, that package is basically always a run or some weird tackle eligible...basically only useful in very specific situations. Ravens with Ingram and Edwards plus Andrews/Hurst/Boyle were all threats so they can remain multiple out of jumbo sets, we were not able to be similarly diverse.
DrDawkinstein Posted August 4, 2020 Author Posted August 4, 2020 22 hours ago, GoBills808 said: I'm not going through all the snaps for the whole season but I would be pry shocked if we ran this particular 3TE set only one fewer time than the Ravens, who had probably the deepest TE rotation in the league with Andrews/Hurst/Boyle and they're all threats to catch the ball...between injuries to Kroft and limitations with Smith in nonblocking roles and specifically 23 groupings where Gore is redundant, this says to me we were either greatly limited by offensive personnel (which was def the case) and/or Daboll struggles to utilize what he did have to work with which I also believe to be true 6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Yes that was my original point; out personnel being what it was last year, that package is basically always a run or some weird tackle eligible...basically only useful in very specific situations. Ravens with Ingram and Edwards plus Andrews/Hurst/Boyle were all threats so they can remain multiple out of jumbo sets, we were not able to be similarly diverse. It's not a bad thing to be in Goal-and-Short, or 3rd-and-short situations, and be able to run this formation more. Just means we're getting good yards on 1st and 2nd down, and not in 3rd-and-long situations.
YattaOkasan Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 Where did we rank in the 11 personnel? We seemed to do much better later in the season with that set. I think that personnel package can really get better with the addition of Diggs.
GoBills808 Posted August 4, 2020 Posted August 4, 2020 1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said: It's not a bad thing to be in Goal-and-Short, or 3rd-and-short situations, and be able to run this formation more. Just means we're getting good yards on 1st and 2nd down, and not in 3rd-and-long situations. For sure. I just wouldn't read much into a package that's used so infrequently. I mean we ran over a thousand offensive plays, this is run like 1.5% of the time. I hope this is used less going forward tbh. I don't think the Ravens offense is something we should or will try to emulate in any way.
DrDawkinstein Posted August 4, 2020 Author Posted August 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: For sure. I just wouldn't read much into a package that's used so infrequently. I mean we ran over a thousand offensive plays, this is run like 1.5% of the time. I hope this is used less going forward tbh. I don't think the Ravens offense is something we should or will try to emulate in any way. Yeah, that's why I downplayed the one Group we were actually mentioned in. I dont think it's a big part of the Ravens Offense either (16 times to our 15 times). I think they were just in the same situations we were. Gaining good yards on 1st and 2nd down, and being in a lot of short yardage situations. When you have a QB who is also a running weapon, like Jackson and Allen are, you can "waste" personnel on extra blockers since Defenses have to respect the RBs and QB.
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