Voluntary Opt outs

[SCBills]

39 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

My supervisor's 10 month old granddaughter was in the ICU for 5 days, fighting this virus.  She's still not out of the woods yet.

 

The media had absolutely nothing to do with it.

That is absolutely awful to hear and I feel terrible for her and her family.  Prayers up for all of them.  
 

That said, people go to the ICU for influenza as well.  People have long term effects from influenza as well.  (Not saying they’re equal as one has no vaccine).  
 

You can’t make an argument based on anecdotal evidence.   My brother and SIL both had COVID - it affected them like a mild case of the flu and they were completely fine a week later.   I’m not going to base my view of the virus off two people though... 
 

The media has everything to do with this.  
 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by SCBills

[JoPoy88]

1 minute ago, Stank_Nasty said:

So 99% of all other activities have the stringent daily sanitation and testing protocols available to these players that the nfl facilities offer..... Got it

Not what he was saying - those mitigation efforts are in response to the high risk of the activity itself. 

[Stank_Nasty]

8 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

Not what he was saying - those mitigation efforts are in response to the high risk of the activity itself. 

Listen I’m not getting to worked up over there opt outs. I just think what he’s saying would make more sense if there wasn’t the fact that 32 nfl teams are all on board with same strict protocol. That field might be the most secure place you could possibly be when compared to a myriad of other activities that may even seem harmless. 
 

then there’s the fact these men face strict fines for putting themselves in what may be exposed situations. That ain’t happening at the local supermarket. 

[Mango]

15 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

So 99% of all other activities have the state of the art stringent daily sanitation and testing protocols available to these players that the nfl facilities offer..... Got it

State of the art is a 24 hour turn around in testing and thermometers in this situation. There’s no technological advancement that allows you to stop the spread during incubation. 
 

So yes, sitting on the beach with your family socially distanced from other strangers, or walking down the street is much safer than players breathing, sweating, bleeding, tackling each other. 
 

Super unsure what point you are trying to make here. 

[Big Turk]

46 minutes ago, SCBills said:

That is absolutely awful to hear and I feel terrible for her and her family.  Prayers up for all of them.  
 

That said, people go to the ICU for influenza as well.  People have long term effects from influenza as well.  (Not saying they’re equal as one has no vaccine).  
 

You can’t make an argument based on anecdotal evidence.   My brother and SIL both had COVID - it affected them like a mild case of the flu and they were completely fine a week later.   I’m not going to base my view of the virus off two people though... 
 

The media has everything to do with this.  
 

 

 

There is a decent chance that if they went and got an MRI right now one of them would show heart abnormalities from it..."mild cases" that are asymptomatic still end up causing something akin to walking pneumonia even if they feel completely fine.

[The Dean]

6 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Hard to believe that healthy young men are afraid of this virus, opting out means 1 of 4 things to me, 1) you don’t love the game 2) you are absolutely paranoid by everything the media says 3) you knew you were getting cut so you took the money 4) Because I know there was one case, your life mission is to help others and football doesn’t fit right now.

 

I'm really trying to be more considerate to conflicting opinions, but I have to say, the level of ignorance in this post is astonishing---even for a sports-related forum. 

 

Let me see if I can some up with a post as dumbfoundingly stupid taking the opposite position. 

 

Any player* who decides to play must not care for other humans at all. They must want to purposefully risk infecting others, possibly causing death or lifelong pain and suffering. They must love money more than their families and friends.

 

How am I doing. I know, that's not quite as ignorant as yours, but gimme some time to work on it.

 

* Veteran or signed draft choice. All are eligible for at least $150K to sit out. I've reserved judgement on the undrafted rookies who may not be eligible for any pay (from what I've heard--maybe that has been settled)

[Reader]

6 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

I'm really trying to be more considerate to conflicting opinions, but I have to say, the level of ignorance in this post is astonishing---even for a sports-related forum. 

 

Let me see if I can some up with a post as dumbfoundingly stupid taking the opposite position. 

 

Any player* who decides to play must not care for other humans at all. They must want to purposefully risk infecting others, possibly causing death or lifelong pain and suffering. They must love money more than their families and friends.

 

How am I doing. I know, that's not quite as ignorant as yours, but gimme some time to work on it.

 

* Veteran or signed draft choice. All are eligible for at least $150K to sit out. I've reserved judgement on the undrafted rookies who may not be eligible for any pay (from what I've heard--maybe that has been settled)

 

Yeah I didn't respond to that post because I thought/really hoped it was a troll. The alternative would suggest a lot of hardship for that person's future.

[Process]

On behalf of fantasy players everywhere thank you Williams for opting out. Nothing more frustrating than running backs by committee. 

 

That rookie they got going to have a big year. 

[DCbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Process said:

On behalf of fantasy players everywhere thank you Williams for opting out. Nothing more frustrating than running backs by committee. 

 

That rookie they got going to have a big year. 

Yes.  I was hoping the Bills could get Edwards Helaire.

[Saxum]

3 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Listen I’m not getting to worked up over there opt outs. I just think what he’s saying would make more sense if there wasn’t the fact that 32 nfl teams are all on board with same strict protocol. That field might be the most secure place you could possibly be when compared to a myriad of other activities that may even seem harmless. 
 

then there’s the fact these men face strict fines for putting themselves in what may be exposed situations. That ain’t happening at the local supermarket. 

 

Baseball has strict protocols and then the players of Northern Cuban Marlins ignored them.  Maybe player believes there is not enough controls and penalties for those who violate rules.  Some may say they will go along but will be partying, playing pick up basketball, etc and when they come down with virus their shysters will claim it is related to game but this hurts all players, coaches and support people.

1 hour ago, Reader said:

 

Yeah I didn't respond to that post because I thought/really hoped it was a troll. The alternative would suggest a lot of hardship for that person's future.

 

I would not say it is a troll.  There are some posters who were not that active before but have started a crusade on this issue and started posting a lot and mostly on the same issue.  Check some of poster histories.

[Saxum]

3 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

then there’s the fact these men face strict fines for putting themselves in what may be exposed situations. That ain’t happening at the local supermarket. 

 

Really strict fines? What fines.  Almost every fine will be take to court by NFLPA's shysters.

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

There is a decent chance that if they went and got an MRI right now one of them would show heart abnormalities from it..."mild cases" that are asymptomatic still end up causing something akin to walking pneumonia even if they feel completely fine.

 

They are not going to camp with walking pneumonia symptoms.  I had it and reduced lung capacity due to it.

[Thurman#1]

On 7/28/2020 at 7:55 AM, machine gun kelly said:

Yolo, thank you as always for the feedback.  I liken that to in our corporate world where I work in hospitals and I have Type 1 Diabetes considered a high risk patient, would I be paid for sitting at home.  No.  I would not.  I would have to be under the strictest control, and do my best to minimize my risk.  I’m not cold hearted and if they want to not work, don’t work.  They just shouldn’t be paid to not work as it is not the way of the rest of the world.

 

I want to be clear though, I applaud anyone for them or their family for not working, they shouldn’t be given corporate welfare.  

 

 

It's not the way of the world. It's the way of the people who don't have a contract in place that provides for that. Everyone's contract is different. I bet that the average NFL player makes a lot more than you do too, just based on the fact that they make far more than the average Joes of the world. Well, if they can get those salaries, more power to 'em. Same with the benefits. If their union got that for them, good for them. It's how capitalism works.

[machine gun kelly]

Thurmon, I’ll correct myself as I mistakenly did not realize the $150,000 or $350,000 is a stipend, not a payment, amd comes off of whatever contract they signed in the future years.  That I have no problem as they are not getting something for nothing, but delaying the rest of their contract into 2021 and 2022.

 

People have their reasons to not play for a variety of reasons including medical reasons for themselves and loved ones.  Just speculating that the majority of people opting out probably have never so as they knew for several days this was coming.  We still May see more, but I’m guessing it will be proportionally less than the amount that made this decision on the first day.

[mannc]

16 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

My supervisor's 10 month old granddaughter was in the ICU for 5 days, fighting this virus.  She's still not out of the woods yet.

 

The media had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Sorry, anecdotal evidence like this proves nothing.  
 

In the entire state of California, not one person under 18-years old has died of CV19.  That a sample size of 9 million kids.  You can confirm this by going to the state’s Coronavirus dashboard.
 

The demographics of this disease have been wildly misrepresented in the media.  It poses very little risk to healthy people under 60 years old, and even less than that to NFL football players in their 20s.  Players who are opting out are either seriously misinformed, are making a business decision, or have some significant pre-existing medical condition that makes them more vulnerable.

Edited July 30, 2020 by mannc

[Just Joshin']

59 minutes ago, mannc said:

Sorry, anecdotal evidence like this proves nothing.  
 

In the entire state of California, not one person under 18-years old has died of CV19.  That a sample size of 9 million kids.  You can confirm this by going to the state’s Coronavirus dashboard.
 

The demographics of this disease have been wildly misrepresented in the media.  It poses very little risk to healthy people under 60 years old, and even less than that to NFL football players in their 20s.  Players who are opting out are either seriously misinformed, are making a business decision, or have some significant pre-existing medical condition that makes them more vulnerable.

I think you summed this up well.  We need stats, not one off stories.

 

If a player wants to opt out because of personal risk factors, family risk or just being uninformed then that is their right.  Not going to critique their decision even if I would make a different one.  They need to live with their decision, not me.

[Manther]

14 hours ago, Process said:

On behalf of fantasy players everywhere thank you Williams for opting out. Nothing more frustrating than running backs by committee. 

 

That rookie they got going to have a big year. 

I would assume it will still be running back by committee.  Just different committee.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

In the entire state of California, not one person under 18-years old has died of CV19.  That a sample size of 9 million kids.  You can confirm this by going to the state’s Coronavirus dashboard.

 

I guess that must be highly reassuring to all the NFL players who are under the age of 18 right now.

 

We do know that dying is only part of the risk of the disease, Yes? 

Current estimate after adjusting for asymptomatic infections ~6% hospitalizations, and even patients who are not ill enough to require hospitalization may suffer prolonged effects:

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/research-reveals-heart-complications-covid-19-patients

-100 unselected coronavirus patients identified from the University Hospital Frankfurt COVID-19 Registry

-median age 49 (that means half were younger)

-Cardiac magnetic resonance (CMR) imaging revealed heart involvement in 78 patients and active cardiac inflammation in 60

-independent of underlying conditions, disease severity, overall course of illness, and time from diagnosis to CMR

-67 of the patients studied had not required hospitalization for covid-19 disease
Actual study:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

 

Then there's the US Olympic Rowing team, that collection of elderly couch potatoes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/24/sports/olympics/coronavirus-us-rowing-olympics.html

"In late March, several days after New Jersey instituted a stay-at-home order as the coronavirus began to ravage parts of the state, Marc Nowak, the team’s physical therapist, tested positive for the virus after experiencing minor cold-like symptoms and promptly reporting them to U.S. Rowing.

In the previous two weeks, Nowak said, he had come into direct contact with “pretty much the whole team” of 33 women during 30-minute physical therapy sessions of hands-on stretching and muscle and joint manipulation. Out of caution — and fortunately for the team — Wenger used one of his office’s limited coronavirus tests to check on his colleague.

One by one, starting four or five days after exposure, rowers began to show symptoms of infection." (....)

Emily Regan, an Olympic gold medalist from Williamsville, N.Y., who was among those infected, wrote a post on Facebook this month highlighting how debilitating the disease could be, even for some of the world’s best athletes who have incredibly powerful and efficient lungs.   “The narrative that has been going around in some places is that you won’t get the virus if you’re young and strong, or if you get it, it won’t be bad, but we’re perfect examples of how that is totally not true,” Regan said. She added: “Look what the virus still did to us. It knocked us down pretty hard.”

The rowers infected ranged in age from 23 to 37, Regan said, and many battled symptoms for weeks. The cases were categorized as mild, though some athletes dealt with complications for as many as 40 days, according to Wenger. None of the rowers required hospitalization, he said.

Regan, 32, said it took her a month to feel back to normal after she fell ill. More than three months later, she is still trying to get back into competitive shape, she said. That level of fitness was extremely high: Regan is a four-time world champion in her ninth year on the national team.

“I’ve never struggled like that before,” she said.

Before we dismiss this as anecdote, the statistics:

-One physical therapist infected

-PT had contact with 33 elite athletes on the team through 30 minute daily PT sessions

-age 23-37 (highly relevant age to NFL football players)

-12 of 33 became infected (36%) with the PT as the most probable contact (elite athletes preparing for olympic trials, not out clubbing or partying)

-0 hospitalizations, 0 deaths, all mild disease

-a number of the athletes reported effects that lingered for weeks/months, returning them to "the level of an average high school girl"

 

Now maybe wearing masks would have prevented transmission - in March, masks weren't being recommended.  Or maybe they won't. 

 

The point is, between the JAMA Cardiology report and the US Rowing Team, it has to be acknowledged that "mild" covid disease that does not result in hospitalization or death can be debilitating to elite athletes. 

 

Maybe Joe Couch Potato and Cubicle Cary wouldn't notice, or would just experience a bit more fatigue carrying in the groceries.  But elite athletes, especially those who are on the bubble...I can see legit cause for concern.

 

 

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I guess that must be highly reassuring to all the NFL players who are under the age of 18 right now.

 

We do know that dying is only part of the risk of the disease, Yes?  Current estimate after adjusting for asymptomatic infections ~6% hospitalizations, and even patients who are not ill enough to require hospitalization may suffer prolonged effects:

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/research-reveals-heart-complications-covid-19-patients

-100 unselected coronavirus patients identified from the University Hospital Frankfurt COVID-19 Registry

-median age 49 (that means half were younger)

-Cardiac magnetic resonance (CMR) imaging revealed heart involvement in 78 patients and active cardiac inflammation in 60

-independent of underlying conditions, disease severity, overall course of illness, and time from diagnosis to CMR

-67 of the patients studied had not required hospitalization for covid-19 disease
Actual study:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

 

Then there's the US Olympic Rowing team, that collection of elderly couch potatoes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/24/sports/olympics/coronavirus-us-rowing-olympics.html

"In late March, several days after New Jersey instituted a stay-at-home order as the coronavirus began to ravage parts of the state, Marc Nowak, the team’s physical therapist, tested positive for the virus after experiencing minor cold-like symptoms and promptly reporting them to U.S. Rowing.

In the previous two weeks, Nowak said, he had come into direct contact with “pretty much the whole team” of 33 women during 30-minute physical therapy sessions of hands-on stretching and muscle and joint manipulation. Out of caution — and fortunately for the team — Wenger used one of his office’s limited coronavirus tests to check on his colleague.

One by one, starting four or five days after exposure, rowers began to show symptoms of infection." (....)

Emily Regan, an Olympic gold medalist from Williamsville, N.Y., who was among those infected, wrote a post on Facebook this month highlighting how debilitating the disease could be, even for some of the world’s best athletes who have incredibly powerful and efficient lungs.   “The narrative that has been going around in some places is that you won’t get the virus if you’re young and strong, or if you get it, it won’t be bad, but we’re perfect examples of how that is totally not true,” Regan said. She added: “Look what the virus still did to us. It knocked us down pretty hard.”

The rowers infected ranged in age from 23 to 37, Regan said, and many battled symptoms for weeks. The cases were categorized as mild, though some athletes dealt with complications for as many as 40 days, according to Wenger. None of the rowers required hospitalization, he said.

Regan, 32, said it took her a month to feel back to normal after she fell ill. More than three months later, she is still trying to get back into competitive shape, she said. That level of fitness was extremely high: Regan is a four-time world champion in her ninth year on the national team.

“I’ve never struggled like that before,” she said.

 

 

The California numbers regarding kids under 18 was cited in response to an anecdote about an infant falling ill.  Those numbers certainly suggest that there is no reason for kids not to be in school and playing HS sports.  But in fact, the number of deaths for people under 40 dying from CV19 in California and elsewhere, while not zero, is vanishingly small--a fact the media never talks about.  

 

It's true that dying isn't the only problem associated with CV19.  But the number of hospitalizations for people under 40 is small as well, and the evidence of long term effects from the disease are of course anecdotal at this point, as is your story about the rowing team, all of whom apparently recovered.  (It doesn't say how many of the "infected" rowers actually got sick, but it's worth noting that none required hospitalization.  Articles about the horrors of CV19 rarely mention that most of the "infected" never even showed symptoms.) 

 

It is also worth noting that certain heart conditions (such as a temporarily enlarged heart) are common after patients recover from any respiratory illness, such as the flu.  it's hardly surprising that this is being observed in some recovered CV19 patients.

[SCBills]

21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I guess that must be highly reassuring to all the NFL players who are under the age of 18 right now.

 

We do know that dying is only part of the risk of the disease, Yes?  Current estimate after adjusting for asymptomatic infections ~6% hospitalizations, and even patients who are not ill enough to require hospitalization may suffer prolonged effects:

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/research-reveals-heart-complications-covid-19-patients

-100 unselected coronavirus patients identified from the University Hospital Frankfurt COVID-19 Registry

-median age 49 (that means half were younger)

-Cardiac magnetic resonance (CMR) imaging revealed heart involvement in 78 patients and active cardiac inflammation in 60

-independent of underlying conditions, disease severity, overall course of illness, and time from diagnosis to CMR

-67 of the patients studied had not required hospitalization for covid-19 disease
Actual study:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

 

Then there's the US Olympic Rowing team, that collection of elderly couch potatoes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/24/sports/olympics/coronavirus-us-rowing-olympics.html

"In late March, several days after New Jersey instituted a stay-at-home order as the coronavirus began to ravage parts of the state, Marc Nowak, the team’s physical therapist, tested positive for the virus after experiencing minor cold-like symptoms and promptly reporting them to U.S. Rowing.

In the previous two weeks, Nowak said, he had come into direct contact with “pretty much the whole team” of 33 women during 30-minute physical therapy sessions of hands-on stretching and muscle and joint manipulation. Out of caution — and fortunately for the team — Wenger used one of his office’s limited coronavirus tests to check on his colleague.

One by one, starting four or five days after exposure, rowers began to show symptoms of infection." (....)

Emily Regan, an Olympic gold medalist from Williamsville, N.Y., who was among those infected, wrote a post on Facebook this month highlighting how debilitating the disease could be, even for some of the world’s best athletes who have incredibly powerful and efficient lungs.   “The narrative that has been going around in some places is that you won’t get the virus if you’re young and strong, or if you get it, it won’t be bad, but we’re perfect examples of how that is totally not true,” Regan said. She added: “Look what the virus still did to us. It knocked us down pretty hard.”

The rowers infected ranged in age from 23 to 37, Regan said, and many battled symptoms for weeks. The cases were categorized as mild, though some athletes dealt with complications for as many as 40 days, according to Wenger. None of the rowers required hospitalization, he said.

Regan, 32, said it took her a month to feel back to normal after she fell ill. More than three months later, she is still trying to get back into competitive shape, she said. That level of fitness was extremely high: Regan is a four-time world champion in her ninth year on the national team.

“I’ve never struggled like that before,” she said.

 

 

 

A doctor from Johns Hopkins recently stated that a widespread vaccine likely will be ready for distribution towards the end of 2021.  

 

What do you prescribe we do?  Close down most everything for almost 2 years, while living in fear of anecdotal evidence and what "might" happen to you?  What we do know is the current death rate is very low, and the American death rate would be much lower if not for the NY elder-care fiasco.  

 

I honestly don't understand those who hold these views.  I fully endorse adjusting to this via distancing and masks, but at some point, with a virus that has an incredibly low death rate, we can't keep being afraid of our own shadows due to anecdotal evidence and potential long term effects (all viruses have potential long term effects on certain people).  

 

NFL players have every right to op-out, but i'm not sure what you want, bigger picture speaking, when people with your line of thinking keep harping on what-ifs and examples that fit your fear-centric view of this.  I don't mean that as condescending, as a healthy dose of fear is a good thing, but you'd think we were fighting mass scale ebola by the way some people are acting.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by SCBills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

The California numbers regarding kids under 18 was cited in response to an anecdote about an infant falling ill.  Those numbers certainly suggest that there is no reason for kids not to be in school and playing HS sports. 

 

I understand you were responding to an anecdote, but you're responding with information about 1) deaths - which are not the only metric of harm 2) in an age group that is younger than relevant to NFL players.

 

No reason for kids not to be in school and playing HS sports? 

Korean contact tracing study.  59,073 contacts of 5,706 patients were traced, during lockdowns and school closures when most people were at home.

It was found that when a person aged 10-18 was the primary contact, the transmission rate was 18.6%, considerably higher than the overall transmission rate of 11.8%.

 

Conclusion:

There is every reason to believe that middle-school and HS kids can and will transmit covid-19 to each other, parents, teachers, and coaches without proper precautions.  So if proper precautions such as spatial distancing and PPE are not in place and not uniformly taken, there is every reason for kids 10-18 to not be in school and playing HS sports because they may amplify the epidemic.

 

I think some people just get a polarized position from the media sources they personally embrace and become closed off to facts that contradict their position.

 

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

But in fact, the number of deaths for people under 40 dying from CV19 in California and elsewhere, while not zero, is vanishingly small--a fact the media never talks about. 

 

Again, deaths are far from the only issue.  Even hospitalizations are far from the only issue.

 

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

It's true that dying isn't the only problem associated with CV19.  But the number of hospitalizations for people under 40 is small as well, and the evidence of long term effects from the disease are of course anecdotal at this point, as is your story about the rowing team, all of whom apparently recovered. 

 

Hello, you appear to have skipped over the cardiac MRI imaging study of 100 covid patients in Germany showing that 78% of them had damaging changes to their heart.  The changes were not "temporary enlarged heart".  Read the article

 

And yes, the rowers all "recovered" to the point of being no longer ill - but if you read the link, you would see that a number of them have not felt able to resume training and those who have, are working their way back from "high school girl" to elite Olympian.

 

Again, I think some people get a polarized position from the media sources they personally embrace and become closed off to facts that contradict their position.  They take the position "it's all anecdotal" or "there are no deaths".  OK, so hard scientific evidence of cardiac damage is presented along with the testimony of "mildly" ill elite athletes about the lasting effect upon their peak physical performance - and again, it gets dismissed as if it's a single seriously ill athlete. 

 

I give up, you win, how about that?