Report: bills wanted to draft Wilson/Prescott

[Don Otreply]

We probably wanted to draft Joe Montana too, amongst others.,, and who the hell is Wilson Prescott...

 

 

 

 

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Edited July 28, 2020 by Don Otreply

[Rochesterfan]

37 minutes ago, simpleman said:

Wasn't that the knock against Mahomes?  Both Wilson and Mahomes were "too short". Look around the league right now. Who are in the top tier of active QBs?

Mahomes is like 6-3 - I don’t think the knock on Mahomes was height.

 

Mahomes was raw from a spread offense - a combination that has failed many times.  Mahomes went to a perfect situation with an offense head coach that had a powerful offense and he got to sit and learn behind a guy that had an incredible season.

 

The entire set-up worked perfect for Mahomes and I would be shocked if it would have worked the same way on most other teams.  Picture the difference if Buffalo would have drafted him.  A defensive Head Coach stressing defense and being asked to play within a system (Mahomes strength is his free lancing style in the KC offense).  He would have been behind a Super conservative QB in Tyrod Taylor and they would be asking him to limit mistakes.  Mahomes in Buffalo would be a different version of Josh - I believe.  
 

It is no different than if Wilson had been drafted here - the situation they are drafted into has a huge impact on their career.  I believe the team and situation has more impact than individual talent in the success of many players.

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, JohnNord said:

This is 100.  Everyone is trying to paint themselves in the best light possible - especially Buddy Nix.  I’m not believing that Nix was that in to Wilson.  If he was, he wouldn’t have waited until round 4 to draft him.  At worst, he would have taken Wilson with his 3rd round pick and then tried to trade up for Graham or draft another WR.  
 

If there is any truth to what Nix said it’s likely that they were interested in taking a flyer on Wilson if he fell to later rounds (maybe the 4th,) but didn’t see enough in him to select him any higher.  You don’t draft a TJ Graham if you think there’s a potential starting QB on the board.  

Nix also tries to make it look like the EJ wasn’t as bad as a pick as it was in actuality.   He said EJ would have been a winner, if they waited another round to draft him.  This makes absolutely no sense.   EJ was not a good NFL QB...whether he was drafted in Round 1, 2, or 3.  
 

If Nix viewed EJ the way I believe they viewed Wilson in 2012, they would have waited to draft a him in the 3rd or 4th, where most scouts had him pegged.  

 

It’s my belief that Nix and Whaley legit though EJ was “the man” which is why drafted him in round 1.  They thought he was a first round talent.

 

 

I agree with you on EJ. I disagree with you on Wilson. I genuinely think the Bills were in on him they just had a complete lack of organisational commitment to understanding the way to win and prioritised a wide receiver who they thought could help day 1 in specific packages (and they did have a need for a speed receiver) over a developmental Quarterback.

 

Maybe they didn't like him and you are right but all the signs were they did. Meeting him at the Combine, going to his workout, bringing him in for a visit, even Buddy telling the world he was too small and the Bills weren't going to draft him (we all remember "we are after a tackle and we see Cordy as a guard") all points to them having a real and genuine interest. 

 

They screwed it up which is almost worse than just evaluating him wrongly.... they liked Russell Wilson and they blew it because organisationally they had no plan about how to build a winner and very little obvious commitment to doing so. 

[JohnNord]

43 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with you on EJ. I disagree with you on Wilson. I genuinely think the Bills were in on him they just had a complete lack of organisational commitment to understanding the way to win and prioritised a wide receiver who they thought could help day 1 in specific packages (and they did have a need for a speed receiver) over a developmental Quarterback.

 

Maybe they didn't like him and you are right but all the signs were they did. Meeting him at the Combine, going to his workout, bringing him in for a visit, even Buddy telling the world he was too small and the Bills weren't going to draft him (we all remember "we are after a tackle and we see Cordy as a guard") all points to them having a real and genuine interest. 

 

They screwed it up which is almost worse than just evaluating him wrongly.... they liked Russell Wilson and they blew it because organisationally they had no plan about how to build a winner and very little obvious commitment to doing so. 

I don’t know - I will agree that Nix and Whaley were clueless about the QB positions.  But If the Bills were so interested in Wilson why did they didn’t they pull the trigger earlier in the 2nd or the 3rd?  Their philosophy typically wasn’t to sit back and wait for a prospect to fall to them.   If that’s the case why did they reach for EJ In the next year’s draft?

 

Also in you thinking, I think you are also overlooking the fact that the Bills resigned Ryan Fitzpatrick to lower tier starter’s deal months earlier.  There was the hope in Buffalo that his late season struggles were due to injury and that he could bounce back in 2012.  Again when you look at how badly the Bills handled the QB position under Nix and Whaley, do you honestly see them making the move to draft the future QB to be waiting in the wings?  It’s a move that good GM’s make but also one that the regime has never done.  
 

So long story short - if they had interest in Wilson, I think it was similar to their interest in Cardale Jones.  They’ll pick him if he falls to them but they aren’t convinced.  Kind of like the half court shot at the end of the first half of a basketball game
 

 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I don’t know - I will agree that Nix and Whaley were clueless about the QB positions.  But If the Bills were so interested in Wilson why did they didn’t they pull the trigger earlier in the 2nd or the 3rd?  Their philosophy typically wasn’t to sit back and wait for a prospect to fall to them.   If that’s the case why did they reach for EJ In the next year’s draft?

 

Also in you thinking, I think you are also overlooking the fact that the Bills resigned Ryan Fitzpatrick to lower tier starter’s deal months earlier.  There was the hope in Buffalo that his late season struggles were due to injury and that he could bounce back in 2012.  Again when you look at how badly the Bills handled the QB position under Nix and Whaley, do you honestly see them making the move to draft the future QB to be waiting in the wings?  It’s a move that good GM’s make but also one that the regime has never done.  
 

So long story short - if they had interest in Wilson, I think it was similar to their interest in Cardale Jones.  They’ll pick him if he falls to them but they aren’t convinced.  Kind of like the half court shot at the end of the first half of a basketball game
 

 

 

I think actually the Nix regime did sit back and wait for the draft to come to them. They rarely moved around the board in the way Whaley and Beane have since. They reached the next year out of desperation. 

 

I think it was organisational ineptitude that led to a bad decision to try and wait on Wilson (who I think they were hoping to take, sit behind Fitz for a year and then play). But I think they absolutely were keen on him. I thought that at the time too. 

[Buddo]

As I've said before, part of the problem with not drafting Wilson, was that Nix and Co, were still stuck in a traditional approach to drafting QBs. They put a value on them, and waited until they hit that value, before moving. Just about everyone else had got to the point where if there was a QB prospect they liked, they were prepared to go get them a round before a straightforward evaluation had them.

 

The Wilson miss wasnt the first time it had happened to Nix, as nobody expected the 'Skins to take Cousins after taking RG3, and there may have been another instance in those few drafts as well.

 

Nix eventually got the idea, which was why he drafted EJ where he did. The mitigation being he did trade down first.

 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think actually the Nix regime did sit back and wait for the draft to come to them. They rarely moved around the board in the way Whaley and Beane have since. They reached the next year out of desperation. 

 

I think it was organisational ineptitude that led to a bad decision to try and wait on Wilson (who I think they were hoping to take, sit behind Fitz for a year and then play). But I think they absolutely were keen on him. I thought that at the time too. 

Looking back as a fan, coming off the horrendous product during the Jauron years, I found the whole Nix and Gailey regime to just be completely frustrating.  Both were underwhelming hires and just added the reputation that Ralph was hurting the franchise with the decisions he was making.

 

To his credit, I think Gailey showed he has a pretty good mind for offense considering what he did with a team led by Ryan Fitzpatrick, Stevie Johnson, and Fred Jackson.  But he was not a good overall head coach and was clueless on defense/coaching hires

14 minutes ago, Buddo said:

As I've said before, part of the problem with not drafting Wilson, was that Nix and Co, were still stuck in a traditional approach to drafting QBs. They put a value on them, and waited until they hit that value, before moving. Just about everyone else had got to the point where if there was a QB prospect they liked, they were prepared to go get them a round before a straightforward evaluation had them.

 

The Wilson miss wasnt the first time it had happened to Nix, as nobody expected the 'Skins to take Cousins after taking RG3, and there may have been another instance in those few drafts as well.

 

Nix eventually got the idea, which was why he drafted EJ where he did. The mitigation being he did trade down first.

 

Again though, if you have a 4th round target on a QB, how confident are you that the player is going to be your franchise?  That is the problem I have with his narrative.  

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think actually the Nix regime did sit back and wait for the draft to come to them. They rarely moved around the board in the way Whaley and Beane have since. They reached the next year out of desperation. 

 

I think it was organisational ineptitude that led to a bad decision to try and wait on Wilson (who I think they were hoping to take, sit behind Fitz for a year and then play). But I think they absolutely were keen on him. I thought that at the time too. 

What about EJ though?  Do you think they had a legit 1st round grade?  Or were they forced to reach for a 3rd/4th round prospect because of the crappy QB situation they painted themselves into?

[Doc]

4 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

To be fair not many short QBs before Wilson have done anything.  Was Moon Wilson's height?   The Bills in fact had suffered through a popular but horrible Lilliputian QB in their recent past.  Maybe watching that QB fail while the Bills had a solid roster surrounding him scared Nix away.  

 

Lest anyone think this post means to show support for the unpopular and also horrible but tall QB the Bills had as an alternative, it isn't. It's the wrong thread for that.

 

Yup.  A sub-6' guy like Wilson (and Flutie, for about a season's worth of games) is a lone exception.  

[Buddo]

Even if they had picked Wilson in the 3rd round, they weren't that confident he would be a success, otherwise they would have picked him sooner. Fact is they thought he was a solid prospect, who needed development. Even the Seahawks were surprised at how quickly Wilson adapted.

 

I don't believe that Nix is trying to build any sort of 'narrative' - any which way you want to slice it, the fact that they liked Wilson, but failed to draft him, when they had the opportunity to do so, doesn't reflect well.

 

Nobody thought that Wilson was going to be the player he was, immediately, otherwise he would have been a 1st round pick, and top ten at least.

 

I've also said earlier, that teams try and get cute with their picks, and lilke to get what they consider to be best value out of them. That will mean trying to wait to take guys. Part of Nix's problem, was that teams weren't getting cute when it came to taking QBs.

 

I'm not answering this for Gunner, but imho, they probably had a late 1st, early 2nd round grade on EJ. Iirc, they pretty much had to take him after they traded down, due to other possible interested parties, and not being able to drop down just a few more spots. I think they could only manage to drop back to the late 20s, and were convinced that he was going to go by the early 20s.

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

What about EJ though?  Do you think they had a legit 1st round grade?  Or were they forced to reach for a 3rd/4th round prospect because of the crappy QB situation they painted themselves into?

 

Yea I think they had a 2nd on him. I understand there were about half a dozen teams who had EJ as the top guy on their board (the Eagles did) but not sure anyone had a first on him and there were a lot of teams (I think the Cowboys were one that leaked out) who had a 4th on him. 

 

So I think they did reach because they painted themselves in the corner, absolutely. But I also think they were probably one of the teams that did like EJ more than most. 

[Bookie Man]

TJ Graham was too juicy to pass up.

[NoSaint]

On 7/22/2020 at 5:34 PM, blacklabel said:

The Wilson stuff has been talked about for ages. Even right after that draft they were lamenting the fact that they graded him too low. IIRC, around that time it came out that Seattle was literally the only team that had a third round grade on him. Everyone else had a fourth round or later grade on him. 

 

And I recall rumblings in 2016 that they had major interest in Dak, but I don't think it was said that Whaley was all in on Cardale. From what I can remember, Cardale was like the consolation prize because they'd missed on Dak. Imagine how much more of a whoopin' Whaley would've taken if both Dak and Cardale were still on the board and he took Cardale over Dak. Yikes. Dude's a good scout but not a great team builder. His whole philosophy of drafting from winning programs in hopes that picks from those schools would somehow bring that winning magic with them was bogus.

it’s not about magic. It’s about grabbing big, fast experienced players. They get the most elite specimens, generally.

 

dude missed at qb but put together some good units otherwise 

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I think they had a 2nd on him. I understand there were about half a dozen teams who had EJ as the top guy on their board (the Eagles did) but not sure anyone had a first on him and there were a lot of teams (I think the Cowboys were one that leaked out) who had a 4th on him. 

 

So I think they did reach because they painted themselves in the corner, absolutely. But I also think they were probably one of the teams that did like EJ more than most. 

and by trading back they were able to justify some added value in the pick and getting their number 1 qb on the board for the year even if he wasn’t a perfect specimen 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

it’s not about magic. It’s about grabbing big, fast experienced players. They get the most elite specimens, generally.

 

dude missed at qb but put together some good units otherwise 

and by trading back they were able to justify some added value in the pick and getting their number 1 qb on the board for the year even if he wasn’t a perfect specimen 

It was flawed rationale but meet the Bills under the Nix/Whaley regime

[JohnNord]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I think they had a 2nd on him. I understand there were about half a dozen teams who had EJ as the top guy on their board (the Eagles did) but not sure anyone had a first on him and there were a lot of teams (I think the Cowboys were one that leaked out) who had a 4th on him. 

 

So I think they did reach because they painted themselves in the corner, absolutely. But I also think they were probably one of the teams that did like EJ more than most. 

Let me ask you this, because you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about this time period.  In The Athletic interview with Tim Graham, it was alluded that Nix was “squeezed out” by Whaley after Wilson’s death and that his tenure in Buffalo ended bitterly.

 

This seems to fly in the opposite direction of the narrative which was purported by the organization and echoed by the media.  I remember it being reported that he was semi-retired and stepping down as GM but would remain with the Bills as a scout.   I remember Russ Brandon sang his praises calling him a “mentor” and thanking him publicly saying “the cupboard was pretty bare before Buddy.”
 

So how exactly was he squeezed out?

 

Many believed that 67 year-old Buddy was a short term GM and the plan was always to have a younger Whaley succeed him.  In 2012, Nix would have been 70+ he fielded a record of about 16-31.  It seems like it made sense to move on.   If he was “squeezed out,” it was for very good reason.  Buddy was a terrible GM

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Let me ask you this, because you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about this time period.  In The Athletic interview with Tim Graham, it was alluded that Nix was “squeezed out” by Whaley after Wilson’s death and that his tenure in Buffalo ended bitterly.

 

This seems to fly in the opposite direction of the narrative which was purported by the organization and echoed by the media.  I remember it being reported that he was semi-retired and stepping down as GM but would remain with the Bills as a scout.   I remember Russ Brandon sang his praises calling him a “mentor” and thanking him publicly saying “the cupboard was pretty bare before Buddy.”
 

So how exactly was he squeezed out?

 

Many believed that 67 year-old Buddy was a short term GM and the plan was always to have a younger Whaley succeed him.  In 2012, Nix would have been 70+ he fielded a record of about 16-31.  It seems like it made sense to move on.   If he was “squeezed out,” it was for very good reason.  Buddy was a terrible GM

 

I don't know whether Buddy Nix was squeezed out but the timing is off in respect to Ralph's death. Buddy stepped down after the 2013 draft and Ralph died in 2014. That wasn't a quote from Nix in the Athletic article it just read as a throwaway like from Graham. 

 

Nix certainly hired Whaley with the idea that Whaley would succeed him. The extent to which the timing was planned or brough forward I have no idea.

 

When I look back on the Nix era I see a football organisation that still hadn't made a commitment to winning or even understood fully what it took to make that commitment. The one thing I will give Buddy is he and Chan is the only GM-HC combo I have seen in my 18/19 years as a Bills fan except the current duo who were actually on the same page. They did not have the force of personality to turn Buffalo around and establish that culture and commitment to winning but they had a chance to win and in different circumstances could maybe have got it done in an organisation where the issues were less deep rooted. Whereas Marrone making enemies throughout the building and Whaley rowing with Rex.... those regimes never stood a chance. In order to win in the NFL you have to have everyone in the boat rowing in the same direction. 

[C.Biscuit97]

22 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

Mahomes is like 6-3 - I don’t think the knock on Mahomes was height.

 

Mahomes was raw from a spread offense - a combination that has failed many times.  Mahomes went to a perfect situation with an offense head coach that had a powerful offense and he got to sit and learn behind a guy that had an incredible season.

 

The entire set-up worked perfect for Mahomes and I would be shocked if it would have worked the same way on most other teams.  Picture the difference if Buffalo would have drafted him.  A defensive Head Coach stressing defense and being asked to play within a system (Mahomes strength is his free lancing style in the KC offense).  He would have been behind a Super conservative QB in Tyrod Taylor and they would be asking him to limit mistakes.  Mahomes in Buffalo would be a different version of Josh - I believe.  
 

It is no different than if Wilson had been drafted here - the situation they are drafted into has a huge impact on their career.  I believe the team and situation has more impact than individual talent in the success of many players.

Completely disagree.
 1) Tyrod was essentially Alex Smith.  
2) Mahomes is special.  He had over 50 tds his last year in college.  Allen wasn’t close to his level in a worse conference.  Mahomes would have been great anywhere and in Buffalo, he would have played with an elite defense instead of one of the worst in KC.  

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I think they had a 2nd on him. I understand there were about half a dozen teams who had EJ as the top guy on their board (the Eagles did) but not sure anyone had a first on him and there were a lot of teams (I think the Cowboys were one that leaked out) who had a 4th on him. 

 

So I think they did reach because they painted themselves in the corner, absolutely. But I also think they were probably one of the teams that did like EJ more than most. 

I still think if EJ could have had more of an Allen type mindset, he could have been a good QB.  He had every tool you wanted but played scared and like a robot.  

[Locomark]

I didn’t read the comments because these QBs went in the 3 and 4 the rounds so if we really wanted them we would have pulled the trigger by the 2nd. 

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

I still think if EJ could have had more of an Allen type mindset, he could have been a good QB.  He had every tool you wanted but played scared and like a robot.  

 

Yea I don't think he was ever going to be great but he got worse as he went along. I think Marrone's uber conservative style was not a good fit for him because he did become even more robotic. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I don't think he was ever going to be great but he got worse as he went along. I think Marrone's uber conservative style was not a good fit for him because he did become even more robotic. 

I think he was too nice of a guy who tried to please his coaches.  Some of his best plays where when he scrambled around and just launched the ball.  He had a cannon.  
 

One thing I love about Allen is for better or worst, he doesn’t play scared.  

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I remember screaming at my TV for the Bills to draft Wilson. I was pissed for years because the Bills didn’t draft Wilson. Prescott is a QB that I never wanted in the first place but has turned into a solid/good QB. It would be interesting to see what Prescott’s numbers would’ve looked like if he landed on the Jets. Cowboys have best O-Line, Best RB, Good WR’s and now Great. I feel like you could insert any of the top 18 QB’s as the Cowboys QB and they would put up similar or better numbers to Prescott.