C.Biscuit97 Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, SCBills said: I don't think Allen fans, at least not myself, wonder why he's viewed the way he is by his critics. I completely understand his criticisms, especially by those that don't watch him and see a sub-par completion percentage by a guy with accuracy questions, leading a struggling offense all last year. I would ask you though, did you watch the other Playoff Games? Did you not witness the grand canyon sized difference between the talent Allen had around him on offense and the talent the other QB's had? It was, without a doubt, the number one thing that stood out to me. Every. Single. Game. I saw plays made for QB's that I never saw anyone make for Allen.... and with reason, Allen went to war with a #2 WR, a slot WR, a street FA and a rookie RB/TE as his weapons behind a mediocre OL. Every single level of our offense should be improved either through talent at the skill positions or experience/continuity on the line. No more excuses in Year 3, but when I watched the other teams in the Playoffs, I was disgusted by what we went to battle with in our WC Game. The Ravens aren’t exactly loaded at receiver either. The Pats were pretty awful. The 49ers have Kittle, a later round pick, and a bunch of non superstars. The Packers had one good receiver. And Wilson has been making good players out of non 1st round guys his whole career. We certainly weren’t a top term talented offense last year but it wasn’t that bad. But hopefully now, there are no excuses. I just want to watch good offense for once.
MJS Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 3 hours ago, DCOrange said: For those that are interested, the data set can be viewed here: QB Share Data I also at least attempted to adjust for the number of starts by using a team's average offensive yards per game. This makes Allen's rookie season look very good, though it's possible this is partially skewed by the fact that he came off the bench for half a game. At any rate his rookie season was probably better than his sophomore season in terms of his share of the team's offense if I had to guess. It should also be noted that in 2019, he technically started all 16 games but played very little of the last game and therefore that will hurt his 2019 number. I also created a second data set of QBs that started all 16 games in a season dating back to 2010. From this set of 151 QBs, Allen's 2019 season ranks 134th. Apparently all that matters to you is yards. Allen is #1 in the league in share of actual points. Yards matter, but points are so much more important it's not even close. 3
SCBills Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: The Ravens aren’t exactly loaded at receiver either. The Pats were pretty awful. The 49ers have Kittle, a later round pick, and a bunch of non superstars. The Packers had one good receiver. And Wilson has been making good players out of non 1st round guys his whole career. We certainly weren’t a top term talented offense last year but it wasn’t that bad. But hopefully now, there are no excuses. I just want to watch good offense for once. Ravens have one of the best TE groups in the NFL with an elite OL. 49ers also have an elite OL, the best (or second best) TE in the league and Deebo Samuel. Devante Adams is better than any WR we had on our roster last year.... by good measure. Houston had Deandre Hopkins. A top 3 WR in the NFL. KC..nothing needs to be said. Pats/Seahawks/Titans were comparable in terms of talent, but Tennessee just rode Henry and for as meh as the playmakers were on NE and Seattle, I saw those guys make plays for Brady and Wilson... especially in terms of Seattle w/ DK going off. Edited July 21, 2020 by SCBills
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 On 7/20/2020 at 12:03 PM, Protocal69 said: To project which NFL franchises are in the best shape for the next three seasons, we asked our panel of experts -- Jeremy Fowler, Louis Riddick, Seth Walder and Field Yates -- to rate each team's quarterback, remaining (non-QB) roster, draft, front office and coaching using this scale: 100: A+ (Elite) 90: A (Great) 80: B (Very good) 70: C (Average) 60: D (Very bad) 50 and below: F (Disastrous) After averaging the results from the panelists, each of the five categories was weighted to create the overall score -- roster (30%), quarterback (20%), draft (15%), front office (15%) and coaching (20%). The result is a comprehensive ranking based on how well each team is positioned for the future. CATEGORY SCORE NFL RANK Overall roster (minus QB) 83.8 6 Quarterback 69.3 26 Coaching 83.8 9 Draft 74.0 20 Front office 83.0 7 Can't argue too much with the rating except for the draft part. I think they've drafted well. Maybe Allen makes a big jump this year, but based on past play, maybe 26 is a little low, but not crazy low either. Seems many other rating are around there too. On 7/20/2020 at 12:11 PM, DCOrange said: For those that are interested, the rest of the rankings are as follows: Baltimore Kansas City San Fran New Orleans Dallas Philly Pittsburgh Seattle Tampa Indy Tennessee Minnesota New England Buffalo Green Bay Cleveland LA Chargers LA Rams Las Vegas Atlanta (tied with Miami) Miami (tied with Atlanta) Arizona Houston Denver Detroit Washington Cinci NY Jets NY Giants Carolina Chicago Jacksonville Hard to predict out more than one year so stating what will happen in 3 years is kind of useless, but of the teams ahead, can't see Brady, Rivers, or Brees still being anywhere near the top of their game. Will be interestign to see how Brady does play as likely has one of the best set of play makers around him in a long time. The limited off-season likely will have hurt him too.
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, SCBills said: Ravens have one of the best TE groups in the NFL with an elite OL. 49ers also have an elite OL, the best (or second best) TE in the league and Deebo Samuel. Devante Adams is better than any WR we had on our roster last year.... by good measure. Houston had Deandre Hopkins. A top 3 WR in the NFL. KC..nothing needs to be said. Pats/Seahawks/Titans were comparable in terms of talent, but Tennessee just rode Henry and for as meh as the playmakers were on NE and Seattle, I saw those guys make plays for Brady and Wilson... especially in terms of Seattle w/ DK going off. These guys should all have been 1st picks then. I would argue Rogers made Adams. The Ravens best TE was a 3rd round pick who came in with Jackson. I would argue Jackson deserves a lot of credit for Andrews success. good QBs makes receivers better. I think a better passing qb scores more points on the Bills than we did last year. Do you disagree?
MJS Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: Can't argue too much with the rating except for the draft part. I think they've drafted well. Maybe Allen makes a big jump this year, but based on past play, maybe 26 is a little low, but not crazy low either. Seems many other rating are around there too. They rank our coaching staff as 9th, and our front office as 7th, but our drafting as 20th... Seems like a good coaching staff (for developing young talent) and a top 7 front office would be top 10 in drafting. But apparently there has to be something to pull the Bills score down.
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, MJS said: Apparently all that matters to you is yards. Allen is #1 in the league in share of actual points. Yards matter, but points are so much more important it's not even close. We averaged 19 points/ game.
MJS Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: These guys should all have been 1st picks then. I would argue Rogers made Adams. The Ravens best TE was a 3rd round pick who came in with Jackson. I would argue Jackson deserves a lot of credit for Andrews success. good QBs makes receivers better. I think a better passing qb scores more points on the Bills than we did last year. Do you disagree? Come on, you know the draft doesn't work like that. Brady should have been a first round pick. Diggs should have. Countless guys should have. And many first round picks shouldn't have. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, MJS said: Come on, you know the draft doesn't work like that. Brady should have been a first round pick. Diggs should have. Countless guys should have. And many first round picks shouldn't have. But it’s all silly to talk about how loaded a team is skill wise when guys who weren’t high picks become really good players. I didn’t like Metcalf for us but loved him for Seattle. He is in the perfect situation with Wilson. Jackson and Andrews came into together and blew up together. Adams isn’t Adams without Rodgers. anyways, Allen has a top group on paper so hopefully the excuses for the highest drafted qb in franchise history are done.
SCBills Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: These guys should all have been 1st picks then. I would argue Rogers made Adams. The Ravens best TE was a 3rd round pick who came in with Jackson. I would argue Jackson deserves a lot of credit for Andrews success. good QBs makes receivers better. I think a better passing qb scores more points on the Bills than we did last year. Do you disagree? I disagree with the entire first part of your post. I do agree that good QB's make receivers better and a better passing QB scores more points on the Bills than we did last year. Why can't i say that and also believe Allen gets unfair criticism? I'm not saying Allen is a franchise QB yet, but I am saying the analytics-only view of him doesn't tell the whole story. I am saying that we've had subpar Offensive talent around him.. subpar Offensive talent that was exposed in the Playoffs. I am saying that Allen has every chance in the world to cement himself as a Franchise QB this year.
MJS Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: We averaged 19 points/ game. You don't know the topic we are discussing, apparently. Despite our poor offense, I made the statement that Josh Allen has been our primary contributor on offense the past two years. DC said that's not true and that Allen has rarely been the reason we have won games. I pointed out that Allen is actually #1 in the league in share of offensive points showing that he has actually been our primary offensive contributor.
GunnerBill Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 21 minutes ago, SCBills said: Ravens have one of the best TE groups in the NFL with an elite OL. So the elite OL - absolutely. Their oline was a top 5 unit. But the tight ends? Before Lamar Jackson became the starter they had, combined in their NFL careers, 837 yards and 3 touchdowns between the three of them. 1
SCBills Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: So the elite OL - absolutely. Their oline was a top 5 unit. But the tight ends? Before Lamar Jackson became the starter they had, combined in their NFL careers, 837 yards and 3 touchdowns between the three of them. Probably because two of them were rookies the year before... https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/ravens-have-high-expectations-for-loaded-tight-end-group
GunnerBill Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, SCBills said: Probably because two of them were rookies the year before... https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/ravens-have-high-expectations-for-loaded-tight-end-group They were. But they were pulling up no trees with Flacco. They started producing the moment Lamar got in under center. You can call that coincidence if you like. But you'd be wrong. 1
Lieutenant Aldo Raine Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 25 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: We averaged 19 points/ game. Maybe, just maybe, we can get some contribution from the RBs. 4 RB TDs in 2018 (3 McCoy and 1 Ivory) and 4 RB TDs in 2019 (2 Singletary and 2 Gore). Do you think you could ever address that, or do you just get off solely blaming Allen for 19pts per game? Your QB shouldn't lead in rushing TDs 17 to 8!
78thealltimegreat Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 7 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I can picture it now. ESPN production meetings. You guys wanna get a bunch of clicks in? Let’s good after the teams in NYC, LA, and Chicago! No way, let’s good after the really big market team: Buffalo. Are you serious with this? and Yates and Riddick are two of the best in the entire business at their jobs. They both worked in nfl FOs and give calm, well thought out reasons. Riddick called Mahomes being a star when he was drafted; predicted Goff would rebound under McVay after a terrible rookie year; etc. he is excellent at his job. You couldn’t be more wrong. So you consider Field Yates and his four years as an intern with Patriots massive front office experience? Super Bowl architect right there and as for Riddick he worked with the Redskins and was one of the architects of the “dream team” in Philly when he was up for the 49ers job in 2015 the Niners fan site couldn’t trash the guy enough as long as someone is articulate even if their wrong says a lot about who you view as credible
LABILLBACKER Posted July 21, 2020 Posted July 21, 2020 On 7/20/2020 at 9:11 AM, SCBills said: So basically, much of his grade revolves around a pessimistic view of Josh Allen. Also, he has us as "average" drafting?... Strongly disagree. We'd be top 5 if not for the continued pessimism of Josh from ESPN. It's like they've willing his demise just so their 2018 projections can be right. I guess they feel Brees, Brady and Ben are playing forever. Tennessee above us is hilarious. If by some act of god we get a season in, Josh will continue to improve.
ngbills Posted July 22, 2020 Posted July 22, 2020 6 hours ago, GunnerBill said: They were. But they were pulling up no trees with Flacco. They started producing the moment Lamar got in under center. You can call that coincidence if you like. But you'd be wrong. 6 hours ago, SCBills said: Probably because two of them were rookies the year before... https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/ravens-have-high-expectations-for-loaded-tight-end-group 6 hours ago, GunnerBill said: So the elite OL - absolutely. Their oline was a top 5 unit. But the tight ends? Before Lamar Jackson became the starter they had, combined in their NFL careers, 837 yards and 3 touchdowns between the three of them. 6 hours ago, SCBills said: I disagree with the entire first part of your post. I do agree that good QB's make receivers better and a better passing QB scores more points on the Bills than we did last year. Why can't i say that and also believe Allen gets unfair criticism? I'm not saying Allen is a franchise QB yet, but I am saying the analytics-only view of him doesn't tell the whole story. I am saying that we've had subpar Offensive talent around him.. subpar Offensive talent that was exposed in the Playoffs. I am saying that Allen has every chance in the world to cement himself as a Franchise QB this year. 6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: But it’s all silly to talk about how loaded a team is skill wise when guys who weren’t high picks become really good players. I didn’t like Metcalf for us but loved him for Seattle. He is in the perfect situation with Wilson. Jackson and Andrews came into together and blew up together. Adams isn’t Adams without Rodgers. anyways, Allen has a top group on paper so hopefully the excuses for the highest drafted qb in franchise history are done. 6 hours ago, MJS said: Come on, you know the draft doesn't work like that. Brady should have been a first round pick. Diggs should have. Countless guys should have. And many first round picks shouldn't have. 6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: These guys should all have been 1st picks then. I would argue Rogers made Adams. The Ravens best TE was a 3rd round pick who came in with Jackson. I would argue Jackson deserves a lot of credit for Andrews success. good QBs makes receivers better. I think a better passing qb scores more points on the Bills than we did last year. Do you disagree? 6 hours ago, SCBills said: Ravens have one of the best TE groups in the NFL with an elite OL. 49ers also have an elite OL, the best (or second best) TE in the league and Deebo Samuel. Devante Adams is better than any WR we had on our roster last year.... by good measure. Houston had Deandre Hopkins. A top 3 WR in the NFL. KC..nothing needs to be said. Pats/Seahawks/Titans were comparable in terms of talent, but Tennessee just rode Henry and for as meh as the playmakers were on NE and Seattle, I saw those guys make plays for Brady and Wilson... especially in terms of Seattle w/ DK going off. This displays the bias. With Allen is everyone else fault for anything bad, but all him for anything good. For every other QB anything good is because of others. Ok I get it now. Look at BALT pre Lamar. Look at SF pre Garrapolo Look at GB with and without Rodgers HOU before Watson KC before Mahomes Those offenses are night and day with different QB's. The Bills have yet to match the Tyrod days of production. And dont tell me how Tyrod had a great supporting cast, it was horrendous. Allen is the only QB of these that has not transformed his offense. 1 1 1
SCBills Posted July 22, 2020 Posted July 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, ngbills said: This displays the bias. With Allen is everyone else fault for anything bad, but all him for anything good. For every other QB anything good is because of others. Ok I get it now. Look at BALT pre Lamar. Look at SF pre Garrapolo Look at GB with and without Rodgers HOU before Watson KC before Mahomes Those offenses are night and day with different QB's. The Bills have yet to match the Tyrod days of production. And dont tell me how Tyrod had a great supporting cast, it was horrendous. Allen is the only QB of these that has not transformed his offense. I’ll give you Lamar transforming that offense but, no... Watson did not make Hopkins, nor did Jimmy G transform the 49ers offense. Noted - Allen has a ways to go before we compare him to Mahomes and Rodgers. I doubt anyone on this board is trying to do that. Do you believe Allen’s playmakers stepped up to the level the other playoff teams playmakers did? Simple question. And, yes, your straw-man arguments aside, we all know Allen has to get better, even with the better talent around him now.
GunnerBill Posted July 22, 2020 Posted July 22, 2020 4 hours ago, SCBills said: I’ll give you Lamar transforming that offense but, no... Watson did not make Hopkins, nor did Jimmy G transform the 49ers offense. Noted - Allen has a ways to go before we compare him to Mahomes and Rodgers. I doubt anyone on this board is trying to do that. Do you believe Allen’s playmakers stepped up to the level the other playoff teams playmakers did? Simple question. And, yes, your straw-man arguments aside, we all know Allen has to get better, even with the better talent around him now. Watson did not make Hopkins but that wasn't quite what he said. He said he transformed Houston's offense. In the two full seasons before Watson Houston averaged 19.3 points per game and 331.2 yards per game. In the two full seasons Watson has played for them it is 24.3 points per game and 362.3 yards per game. That is over 30 yards and 5 points per game Deshaun Watson has been worth to Houston. And that is with me purposely excluding 2017 where Watson started 6 games as a rookie but then blew his knee out. If you look at that season the numbers are even more staggering: The 2017 Houston Texans without Deshaun Watson were 2-8, averaging just 13 points per game and 275.1 yards per game. The 2017 Houston Texans with Deshaun Watson were 3-3, averaging 34.6 points and 394.8 yards. Yea, Deshaun Watson transformed Houston's offense, even though DeAndre Hopkins was already a stud before he got there. 1
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