B-Man Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 21 minutes ago, B-Man said: China's UK ambassador denies abuse of Uighurs despite ... www.theguardian.com › world › jul › chinas-uk-ambas... 4 hours ago - China's ambassador to the UK has insisted the Uighur people live in “peaceful and harmonious coexistence with other ethnic groups”, as he ... UK accuses China of 'gross' human rights abuses against ... www.bbc.co.uk › news › uk-politics-53463403 2 hours ago - Chinese officials reject what Dominic Raab says are "deeply troubling" ... Liu Xiaoming told the BBC's Andrew Marr that the Uighurs received the ... Kong government following the imposition of a new security law which the UK Re-posted. Got buried in the Bullsh*t. 2 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: He bashes two (three if you include Trump) GOP Presidents and he’s in a cult? ? ...sad but true 'Chef...trying to engage in constructive dialogue/discourse is non-sequitur.....WELL beyond their capabilities...."always attack...NEVER defend" reigns true supported by highly reliable social media postings (COUGH).....BUT...it is daily amusement free of charge........... 2 minutes ago, B-Man said: Re-posted. Got buried in the Bullsh*t. UK???....I'm going to wait for the UN to provide the truth..... 1
B-Man Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...sad but true 'Chef...trying to engage in constructive dialogue/discourse is non-sequitur.....WELL beyond their capabilities...."always attack...NEVER defend" reigns true supported by highly reliable social media postings (COUGH).....BUT...it is daily amusement free of charge........... UK???....I'm going to wait for the UN to provide the truth..... American media will not be posting Anti-China articles, unless forced to. 2
snafu Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 23 hours ago, RealKayAdams said: Like most human conflicts, this is ultimately about natural resources. The Xinjiang region has a lot of them that the Chinese economy badly needs. The Uyghurs are culturally very different from the Han Chinese and have been flirting with separatist movements for decades. China is doing everything they can get away with in order to make sure Xinjiang doesn’t break off into an independent country. They’ve tried mass migration of Han Chinese into the province. They’ve tried free speech suppression. Now they’re trying “re-education” camps. The CCP clearly feels that they cannot afford to lose control of Xinjiang’s natural resources. What you describe sounds a lot like Tibet in the ‘50s and ‘60s and ‘80s and early this Century. Our response was always to protest the abuses of China vs. the Tibetans. Perhaps international protestation toward China worked to save Tibetans from the Uyghur’s fate. China never had the available “excuse” of dealing with Muslim extremists when dealing with Tibet. China doesn’t really get targeted by militant islamists that anyone ever hears of, but they use that as a very thin justification. 23 hours ago, RealKayAdams said: The solution? The international community needs to make it economically more favorable for China to stop this genocidal behavior rather than to let it continue in secret. Do you mean economically more painful for the CCP to continue their actions? China needs to be called out by any country that has a voice to do so. Is seems trite, but China is always prickly about its international reputation because it needs to be seen as a good trade partner. The CCP wants to have China be seen as the better alternative to US international influence. That reputation/goal is fading fast in light of countries’ reactions to their belt-and-road soverignity grab around the world. As well as in reaction to their treaty breaking in Hong Kong, their push against the disputed border with India, and the South China Sea grab (another broken treaty). Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet. They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event). I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). There needs to be regional pushback against The CCP’s actions as well as international voices. The 5 Stan countries are only just beginning to organize into a loose regional group to discuss trade and mutual regional problems and solutions. I believe that Kyrgyzstan is refusing to return Uyghurs who fled China in spite of Chinese demands to do so. There must be more of this, if possible. The South China Sea countries have coalesced against China. Any country that provides raw materials and food to China should be in their face about human rights abuses and territory grabs. The CCP must feed and employ over a billion people. Reducing trade in basic staples will pressurize the CCP from within. it is a super tight balancing act because China will lash out militarily if pushed too hard. Their economy can’t be tanked because it would be a repeat of Japan in the late 1930’s. 23 hours ago, RealKayAdams said: Biden and Trump both could be doing a lot more to talk about this issue in public. It better be raised during one of the three scheduled presidential debates. If there are debates, yes, for sure. They should both be hawks about this. And they should do their best to rally allies and foes alike to this problem. 1
B-Man Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 The World’s Most Technologically Sophisticated Genocide Is Happening in Xinjiang The United States needs to formally acknowledge the scale of the atrocities. BY RAYHAN ASAT, YONAH DIAMOND https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/15/uighur-genocide-xinjiang-china-surveillance-sterilization/ House GOP demands 'immediate' hearing on Uighur 'genocide' www.washingtonexaminer.com › news › house-gop-de... 6 days ago - ... the Chinese Communist Party's "genocide" of the Uighurs in western China. ... on Uighur 'genocide' carried out by Chinese Communist Party. Uighur Activist Calls On World Leaders To Punish China For ... www.wbur.org › uighur-muslims-china-human-rights 4 days ago - ... been benefiting from the forced labor of Uighur Muslims in China. ... initiative right now is complicit with the Uighurs genocide,” she says. 1
RochesterRob Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 28 minutes ago, snafu said: What you describe sounds a lot like Tibet in the ‘50s and ‘60s and ‘80s and early this Century. Our response was always to protest the abuses of China vs. the Tibetans. Perhaps international protestation toward China worked to save Tibetans from the Uyghur’s fate. China never had the available “excuse” of dealing with Muslim extremists when dealing with Tibet. China doesn’t really get targeted by militant islamists that anyone ever hears of, but they use that as a very thin justification. Do you mean economically more painful for the CCP to continue their actions? China needs to be called out by any country that has a voice to do so. Is seems trite, but China is always prickly about its international reputation because it needs to be seen as a good trade partner. The CCP wants to have China be seen as the better alternative to US international influence. That reputation/goal is fading fast in light of countries’ reactions to their belt-and-road soverignity grab around the world. As well as in reaction to their treaty breaking in Hong Kong, their push against the disputed border with India, and the South China Sea grab (another broken treaty). Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet. They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event). I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). There needs to be regional pushback against The CCP’s actions as well as international voices. The 5 Stan countries are only just beginning to organize into a loose regional group to discuss trade and mutual regional problems and solutions. I believe that Kyrgyzstan is refusing to return Uyghurs who fled China in spite of Chinese demands to do so. There must be more of this, if possible. The South China Sea countries have coalesced against China. Any country that provides raw materials and food to China should be in their face about human rights abuses and territory grabs. The CCP must feed and employ over a billion people. Reducing trade in basic staples will pressurize the CCP from within. it is a super tight balancing act because China will lash out militarily if pushed too hard. Their economy can’t be tanked because it would be a repeat of Japan in the late 1930’s. If there are debates, yes, for sure. They should both be hawks about this. And they should do their best to rally allies and foes alike to this problem. Yes, the Himalaya chain has always been a very effective barrier to the Middle East and keeping a broad conflict from breaking out with India. If things were different a much different history would have been seen the last 150 years even if there were 500 miles of desert separating China from it neighbors to the West. Not sure on the late 1930's Japan analogy. Any trade restrictions would have minimal impact on key Chinese points of interest such as the military and the ruling class. An US oil embargo hit the Japanese military extremely hard immediately in particular the IJN. Also, the average citizen in Japan back then held a higher value to the government versus China seeing 100's of millions of peasants as more of a problem than a resource to be tapped.
wppete Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, wppete said: Now lets get back to what we are here for. Systematic Genocide being committed right now by COMMUNIST CHINA!!!! Some of the Evil Idiots on here Hijacking this thread, we all know who the idiots are, so let’s all get back to the real importance of this thread, the systematic genocide being committed by COMMUNIST CHINA!!!! PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO AND SEE THE EVIL BEING COMMITTED RIGHT NOW! Edited July 19, 2020 by wppete 4 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, B-Man said: American media will not be posting Anti-China articles, unless forced to. ...ONLY because the much needed push back is occurring with Trump PERIOD.......look at the FOUR previous administrations ala Bush Sr (REPUBLICAN), Clinton, 'lil Bush (REPUBLICAN) and Obama......every damn one was played like a second rate fiddle with three broken strings by China ("Biden says, "our friends").....their stated objective for world dominance went unchecked for FOUR administrations....and now we should singly intercede in their ethnic cleansing while the UN sits idly by?.....of course....... 1
dpberr Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 "Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet. They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event). I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). " Taiwan is the equivalent of the Polish countryside of 1939. I'd expect the US to significantly spend money on the Vietnam navy over the next decade. If there is a country that hates China the most in that area, it's Vietnam. Won't be surprised to see a lot of Western naval hardware with the Vietnamese flag on it by 2030. 1
RochesterRob Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, dpberr said: "Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet. They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event). I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). " Taiwan is the equivalent of the Polish countryside of 1939. I'd expect the US to significantly spend money on the Vietnam navy over the next decade. If there is a country that hates China the most in that area, it's Vietnam. Won't be surprised to see a lot of Western naval hardware with the Vietnamese flag on it by 2030. Interesting thought on Vietnam but I would expect the armament to be on the small side. Shore defense and so forth. Something that has only recently become possible with our government with the Vietnam War era politicians and DoD personnel pretty well gone. If we are going large then I expect that we will do it with Japan assuming that they are willing.
snafu Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, RochesterRob said: Yes, the Himalaya chain has always been a very effective barrier to the Middle East and keeping a broad conflict from breaking out with India. If things were different a much different history would have been seen the last 150 years even if there were 500 miles of desert separating China from it neighbors to the West. Not sure on the late 1930's Japan analogy. Any trade restrictions would have minimal impact on key Chinese points of interest such as the military and the ruling class. An US oil embargo hit the Japanese military extremely hard immediately in particular the IJN. Also, the average citizen in Japan back then held a higher value to the government versus China seeing 100's of millions of peasants as more of a problem than a resource to be tapped. I’m sure there are differences between today and 1930’s Japan, but there certainly are similarities. Japan was already in China for a long time before we said enough and cut oil and froze all Japanese assets in the US. China keeps prodding their borders in an expansionist way. I think those actions the US took against Japan pushed Japan to seek resources elsewhere in Asia and so they branched out in a violent and comprehensive way. China is setting itself up to do the same thing in several areas of the globe. Don’t underestimate the usefulness of the Chinese yellow slave labor to the CCP’ economic machine. And when the shooting starts, don’t underestimate their usefulness as nominally effective cannon fodder. 23 minutes ago, dpberr said: "Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet. They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event). I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). " Taiwan is the equivalent of the Polish countryside of 1939. I'd expect the US to significantly spend money on the Vietnam navy over the next decade. If there is a country that hates China the most in that area, it's Vietnam. Won't be surprised to see a lot of Western naval hardware with the Vietnamese flag on it by 2030. The Australians have been harassed by the Chinese for years, too, for their natural resources. I think there would be a lot of pushback in the South China Sea from several countries who are fed up with the bullying. 2
dpberr Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: Interesting thought on Vietnam but I would expect the armament to be on the small side. Shore defense and so forth. Something that has only recently become possible with our government with the Vietnam War era politicians and DoD personnel pretty well gone. If we are going large then I expect that we will do it with Japan assuming that they are willing. Vietnam has signed defense pacts with the US (isn't the irony heavy?) and France (isn't it heavier?) in recent years, so the transfer of technology has already begun. I think it goes up significantly because there's no love lost between Vietnam and China and they don't trust the Russians to supply them if China tries to invade them again. I'd expect if the West were to pull manufacturing out of China, they'd go to Vietnam. Vietnam has beaten three world powers in battle, isn't that something? (colonial French, US, Chinese) 1
RochesterRob Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 14 minutes ago, snafu said: I’m sure there are differences between today and 1930’s Japan, but there certainly are similarities. Japan was already in China for a long time before we said enough and cut oil and froze all Japanese assets in the US. China keeps prodding their borders in an expansionist way. I think those actions the US took against Japan pushed Japan to seek resources elsewhere in Asia and so they branched out in a violent and comprehensive way. China is setting itself up to do the same thing in several areas of the globe. Don’t underestimate the usefulness of the Chinese yellow slave labor to the CCP’ economic machine. And when the shooting starts, don’t underestimate their usefulness as nominally effective cannon fodder. The Australians have been harassed by the Chinese for years, too, for their natural resources. I think there would be a lot of pushback in the South China Sea from several countries who are fed up with the bullying. Japan was already preparing to grab other resources in Asia before our embargoes. SE Asia was important for food (rice), rubber, and aluminum before we pressured Japan to look for oil in Indonesia, etc. because of the embargo. 2
RochesterRob Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 11 minutes ago, dpberr said: Vietnam has signed defense pacts with the US (isn't the irony heavy?) and France (isn't it heavier?) in recent years, so the transfer of technology has already begun. I think it goes up significantly because there's no love lost between Vietnam and China and they don't trust the Russians to supply them if China tries to invade them again. I'd expect if the West were to pull manufacturing out of China, they'd go to Vietnam. Vietnam has beaten three world powers in battle, isn't that something? (colonial French, US, Chinese) Yeah, Vietnam "beat" three world powers but there should be an asterisk after the effort against the French and the US. The French were depleted after WWII and efforts such as DeGaulle meeting Eisenhower bore no fruit in terms of retaining "French Indo-China" as it was known back then. It has been long rumored that the US went into Vietnam in part to pacify the French because the French believed that they could still run Vietnam as a protectorate of France once the conflict was over. At the heart of pacifying the French was to have a reliable continental partner in the French in terms of the Cold War so the US would have a place for troops and arms to go to if W Germany got too unstable. France during the early 1960's was already enduring a sharp turn to the left politically and an action in Vietnam might have the long term effect of stemming communism in France. Simply, the US never really played to "win" in Vietnam. They should have gone all out which would have meant a broader conflict which would be bad or simply never went. But then again you have the issue of keeping France as a reliable Cold War partner. 1
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 48 minutes ago, dpberr said: Vietnam has signed defense pacts with the US (isn't the irony heavy?) and France (isn't it heavier?) in recent years, so the transfer of technology has already begun. I think it goes up significantly because there's no love lost between Vietnam and China and they don't trust the Russians to supply them if China tries to invade them again. I'd expect if the West were to pull manufacturing out of China, they'd go to Vietnam. Vietnam has beaten three world powers in battle, isn't that something? (colonial French, US, Chinese) Home field advantage. 1
Reality Check Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 I take it that people aren't going to be as supportive of the shipping off of the remainder of America's manufacturing base. Well that's good, better late than never, although it's pretty damn late in the game. Maybe a collective national apology may be in order for the American working class who were crushed over the last 30 years. Now, we as voters get to reap what we have sewn. Curious how no one saw this coming, despite it all being done quite intentionally, and with bipartisan support. China sent us the Covid 19, but God forbid anyone blamed China for intentionally sending it into the west. But now, people are worked up over the camps? I guess China's only mistake was running such camps, as the American population seemed content to surrender ourselves economically to China without any resistance otherwise. Hell, we have communists in our own country rioting everyday with the support of the MSM. We have Democrat leadership that either supports them or is dead silent on the riots. It will be interesting what comes next. 1
Unforgiven Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 genocide? this post must be giggle pron for tibs 1
4merper4mer Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 5 hours ago, wppete said: Do these Ughyur people know that they are costing LeCom big $$$$$$$? 1
ComradeKayAdams Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 On 7/18/2020 at 8:49 PM, Cinga said: Couple things... First, this is a thread about China, NOT the US but since you brought it up, our record is certainly a hell of a lot better than China or Russia, or literally any other nation on this planet. Has it been perfect, absolutely not! Discussion for another time, but the problem over the course of time you mention is that politicians seem to think they know how to win battles and their stupid ass ROEs. But again I remind you, this isn't about the US. As for negotiations and that previous remark to make it economically prudent for them. This is a country who just got 57 other nations to agree to their takeover of Hong Kong. Which nations do you have in mind to join us? Maybe a trade embargo? Increased tariffs? isn't the orangeman trying that? Maybe you want to just give them cash incentives? Promise to be nice and we'll give you taxpayer money? Or perhaps you want to resurrect the TPP? Send jobs back to not only China, but other nations in SE Asia as well? Every multilateral trade deal in US history has been at the expense of the US. Those jobs this was supposed to create? Yeah, they would have been in other countries, not ours. So the question remains... Who is going to join us in those trade negotiations? Who is going to join us in those multilateral sanctions? Please expand? I’m more than happy to keep the focus of the discussion here on the Uyghurs and China, so I will refrain from a long and tired essay on the ethical and strategic failures of post-WW 2 US foreign policy. It’s slightly relevant to this topic, however, because our international reputation affects how we can go about solving the Uyghur genocide problem. Look at the list of the 50+ countries who have defended China on Xinjiang and on Hong Kong. Notice how they tend to fall into 2 groups: African countries that stand to benefit economically from good Chinese relations, and then countries with reason to hate the US because of our 75 years of foreign policy blunders and bullying. With the latter group, we have inadvertently strengthened China’s global power by pushing many of these countries over to our enemy’s side as a consequence of our long history of organized coups, draconian sanctions, economically motivated wars, drone/bomb collateral damage, etc... Also note that I’ve never made an absurd moral equivalence argument between the deliberate Chinese genocide of Uyghurs and US foreign policy mistakes. Even so, from time to time our international enemies do love to point out our own internal history of Native American genocide and African American slavery. Quite an unfair argument since all those responsible have been dead for a long time, but the greater point here is that (recent or old) track records of human rights abuses matter and that they taint future international relationships. Ok, now a quick pivot back to China and the Uyghurs… My hope is that Europe, the rest of the industrialized West, Brazil, India, Japan, South Korea, and all of the other democratic countries in the world would join the US in multilateral trade negotiations. These countries I just listed form a huge percentage of the total global GDP, so that is an overwhelming amount of economic leverage right there. “Incentivized” multilateral trade negotiations do NOT mean free bags of bribery cash courtesy of the American taxpayers. I’m referring to complex, mutually beneficial trade deals involving many countries besides the US and China. And no, I do not want to resurrect the TPP. I’m as outspoken as one can get against TPP, NAFTA, most of USMCA, and globalism’s failures in general. I’ll ask again for the message board community: what are the viable alternatives? If anyone wants to suggest military action, then walk us through how that would play out on the international arena. The pandemic’s attack on the global economy has the world’s leaders sufficiently on edge right now, so one or two missteps could easily trigger World War 3. No, I don’t think I’m being entirely hyperbolic. 20 hours ago, snafu said: Do you mean economically more painful for the CCP to continue their actions? Yes, that’s a slightly less diplomatic but equally valid way of saying the same thing: multilateral economic pressure on China is our best bet in saving the Uyghurs. Your idea of mass international protests a la Tibet is excellent, since that would publicly humiliate China and scare them with threats of worldwide boycotts of their (craptacular) products.
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