Orlando Buffalo Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 51 minutes ago, LabattBlue said: Please feel free to list the 19 QB’s that are better than Dak? I said 13 to 20 so I will tell you I think is better(kind of in order but not exact) Mahomes Wilson LJ Brees Brady Watson Rodgers Ryan Rivers Josh Allen Cousins Stafford garropollo Bridgewater Wentz
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: So I agree that what Dak did in college never gets enough credit. 23-10 as a starter in a division with Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss, Texas A&M and LSU.... people who say "Dak isn't a winner" when both at the college and NFL level the proof of the pudding is "he wins". 2019 was the first time in his career as a starting Quarterback at college or NFL level that he didn't have a winning record. I do disagree on the potential point though. Allen's physical gifts are such that if the more technical elements and mental elements of QB play ever really click for him at the highest level his physical potential means he could be special. I have always said that about Allen even when I was low on him at draft time. I thought the chances that everything else clicked were very low... but always thought if they did he was a potential star. Dak doesn't have the same natural gifts (though he is a decent athlete with a decent arm), but his intangibles as a leader and as a decision maker are off the charts. There are certainly prettier throwers than Dak. He doesn't have a picture perfect Drew Brees like release, he looks a bit mechanical but his accuracy is actually pretty good. In summary it is not blind hope based on Allen - it is based on the physical potential plus the notable improvements in his technical and mental game since he came into the league. He still has a fair way to go but there is encouragement that he might get there. Dak is underrated on these forums though. I think the Dallas thing plays in and I still think the 4th round pick thing plays in too. there aren't 12 better than him either so it is a null and void point. I don’t disagree at all about the potential. But how many super talented qbs come into the league that never amount to anything. IMO, and qb is so hard to evaluate, but you look for the combination of physical/ mental gifts and production in the field. I wasn’t high on Allen because I think guys who are going to be stars have more flashes of dominant play. I seen flashes of great plays but it’s so inconsistent. Then if you go back to college with low level competition, Allen really didn’t blow the conference away like I think a top 10 pick should. then you have a guy like Dak, with less physical gifts, who elevates ones of the crappiest programs in the worst conference (and there wasn’t a tough of good offensive talent surrounding him). Then he goes to the pros and has about a good of a start to a career as almost any qb. This is crazy but maybe the guy is just good. I get that we’re Bills fans so there is going to be some homer takes but there is zero consistency in qb evaluations. Lamar, who has won a Heisman and MVP by age 23, isn’t really that good. Cam, Heisman, MVP, SB, wasn’t really that good. But Allen, with by far the worst resume of any of those guys, is going to be a star. It makes no sense.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I said 13 to 20 so I will tell you I think is better(kind of in order but not exact) Mahomes Wilson LJ Brees Brady Watson Rodgers Ryan Rivers Josh Allen Cousins Stafford garropollo Bridgewater Wentz Not sure that you want to go down this ride. A whole bunch of FACTS may enter the equation that don’t look so good for some of those guys. 3 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 30 minutes ago, DCOrange said: I think these two posts kind of point to the difference between absolute potential and probable peak. Seems like Biscuit is more focused on the probable peak, which is likely lower than what Dak is right now, whereas Gunner is talking about pure potential if Allen becomes as good as someone with his tools can be. I think both are totally reasonable takes; at this point I think it's probably unlikely that Allen becomes as good as Dak currently is, but I don't think it's impossible either. And with Allen's work ethic and physical tools, I think he has a better chance than your ordinary young QB of defying the odds and becoming an elite QB. If I had to bet right now, I would bet big money in Allen never having a season passing like Dak just had. So would most Non Bills fan. doesn’t mean Allen is bad but rather that Dak has become underrated.
GunnerBill Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I said 13 to 20 so I will tell you I think is better(kind of in order but not exact) Mahomes Wilson LJ Brees Brady Watson Rodgers Ryan Rivers Josh Allen Cousins Stafford garropollo Bridgewater Wentz Rivers? As in Rivers now, today? Not a chance. Bridgewater? Don't make me laugh. 4
Kirby Jackson Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I don’t disagree at all about the potential. But how many super talented qbs come into the league that never amount to anything. IMO, and qb is so hard to evaluate, but you look for the combination of physical/ mental gifts and production in the field. I wasn’t high on Allen because I think guys who are going to be stars have more flashes of dominant play. I seen flashes of great plays but it’s so inconsistent. Then if you go back to college with low level competition, Allen really didn’t blow the conference away like I think a top 10 pick should. then you have a guy like Dak, with less physical gifts, who elevates ones of the crappiest programs in the worst conference (and there wasn’t a tough of good offensive talent surrounding him). Then he goes to the pros and has about a good of a start to a career as almost any qb. This is crazy but maybe the guy is just good. I get that we’re Bills fans so there is going to be some homer takes but there is zero consistency in qb evaluations. Lamar, who has won a Heisman and MVP by age 23, isn’t really that good. Cam, Heisman, MVP, SB, wasn’t really that good. But Allen, with by far the worst resume of any of those guys, is going to be a star. It makes no sense. The thing you’re discounting though is Allen has taken GIANT steps. There are a lot of ultra talented guys that never make it. There are others that do. Allen should be looked at more on the trajectory of the successful ones based on last year. The Bills are 15-9 in games that Allen starts and finishes. They are 1-7 in games where he doesn’t. In his last 10 starts he has 21 TDs and 2 INTs. He isn’t where he needs to be or ultimately will end up. At this point though it isn’t fair to look at him as some raw prospect with a low floor. At worst, he’s a decent NFL starting QB right now. At best he’s a star. The floor has moved and that’s where you don’t give him enough credit. 2
Orlando Buffalo Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Not sure that you want to go down this ride. A whole bunch of FACTS may enter the equation that don’t look so good for some of those guys. I am not a pure numbers guy- despite teaching math- but I think Daks numbers are much more impressive than his play, at least last year. I am simply listing the players I would rather have as my QB. 7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Rivers? As in Rivers now, today? Not a chance. Bridgewater? Don't make me laugh. Since you are being honest- and make a good point with Rivers- who else on that list is Dak clearly better than? I will admit I have not watched nearly as much NFL in past years but in the few times I saw Dak I was not impressed
GunnerBill Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: Since you are being honest- and make a good point with Rivers- who else on that list is Dak clearly better than? I will admit I have not watched nearly as much NFL in past years but in the few times I saw Dak I was not impressed I have him after the first 8 names on your list. Stafford and Wentz I can take an argument on. He is better right now than Allen, Jimmy G, Cousins and way better than Bridgewater.
LabattBlue Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 50 minutes ago, Limeaid said: If a player is in 13-20 range it does not necessarily mean he is #20. Saying so is an exaggeration to try to make your point. it is like saying "Bills TE Lee Smith always is off sides". Well then the poster should have picked a number instead of a range. It likes saying Josh Allen is a top 1-30 QB in the NFL.
SCBills Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 Dak is definitely a QB that puts you in a tough spot as a franchise. He’s good. Probably not great. You can make the playoffs with him, but probably need a lot of talent around him to advance in the Playoffs. You can’t surround him with a ton of talent if you’re paying him what he’s looking for. He has Zeke, one of the best OL’s in football, along with one of the best WR units in Gallup/Cooper, now add Lamb. If you want to keep that offense together, with Dak, you’re going to have to rely on minimum contracts and rookie contracts to field a defense. At the same time, if you don't pay him... someone else likely will. Dak knows that. His agent knows that. Dallas knows that. Do you pay him, with your ceiling likely being consistent playoff contender?... That’s not a bad ceiling, but if the goal is to win Championships, he’s probably not the guy. This is also taking into account the potential that he keeps improving as he’s still a young(er) QB, but doesn’t really possess any elite traits in arm strength, mobility, accuracy, reading defenses etc. Very difficult decision if I’m Dallas - I honestly don’t know what I’d do. If you pay him, you’re just “hoping” he still makes another jump that his career/skill level doesn’t indicate he will.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 52 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I am not a pure numbers guy- despite teaching math- but I think Daks numbers are much more impressive than his play, at least last year. I am simply listing the players I would rather have as my QB. Since you are being honest- and make a good point with Rivers- who else on that list is Dak clearly better than? I will admit I have not watched nearly as much NFL in past years but in the few times I saw Dak I was not impressed Since the start of the Super Bowl era 2 QBs have 15,000 yards passing and 40 wins in their first 4 seasons - Dan Marino and Dak Prescott. 1
LabattBlue Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Since the start of the Super Bowl era 2 QBs have 15,000 yards passing and 40 wins in their first 4 seasons - Dan Marino and Dak Prescott. Yeah, but he sucks because he plays for the Cowboys and ESPN talks about him too much. 2 1
DCOrange Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 38 minutes ago, SCBills said: Dak is definitely a QB that puts you in a tough spot as a franchise. He’s good. Probably not great. You can make the playoffs with him, but probably need a lot of talent around him to advance in the Playoffs. You can’t surround him with a ton of talent if you’re paying him what he’s looking for. He has Zeke, one of the best OL’s in football, along with one of the best WR units in Gallup/Cooper, now add Lamb. If you want to keep that offense together, with Dak, you’re going to have to rely on minimum contracts and rookie contracts to field a defense. At the same time, if you don't pay him... someone else likely will. Dak knows that. His agent knows that. Dallas knows that. Do you pay him, with your ceiling likely being consistent playoff contender?... That’s not a bad ceiling, but if the goal is to win Championships, he’s probably not the guy. This is also taking into account the potential that he keeps improving as he’s still a young(er) QB, but doesn’t really possess any elite traits in arm strength, mobility, accuracy, reading defenses etc. Very difficult decision if I’m Dallas - I honestly don’t know what I’d do. If you pay him, you’re just “hoping” he still makes another jump that his career/skill level doesn’t indicate he will. In my opinion they already screwed the pooch by giving Zeke his contract. He was the obvious choice to let go to maintain cap flexibility. Having said that, with the way the NFL salary cap is, I honestly think they'll be able to make it work just fine as long as they draft well.
Like A Mofo Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 1. It's the Dallas Cowboys. There are some teams out there that just get a LOT of coverage whether we like it or not. 2. Dak is one of those QB's that elicits a lot of opinions. Why? Because Dallas as far as playoff success goes and even in season, has not lived up to the lofty expectations placed on them annually. 3. When you analyze Dak further, it should be a no brainier that he should be paid like a top QB. He is better then Goff, and to me, its not particularly close. 4. Why isn't he getting paid? I think mostly, draft position, if Dak was a 1st round pick Dallas would have locked him up long term already. These same issues happened to Brees and Cousins, and all 3 have something in common: They were not 1st round picks.
DCofNC Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 16 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: He can’t now. That’s why it was such a dumb decision. Next year the tag is projected at $37.7M and then $54.2M the following year. They are going to have to make a pretty compelling offer to get Dak to turn down $37.7M and then a chance to go to FA. Otherwise they’ll have to pay him the unheard of $54.2M. If they would have just went to 4 years and $140M or something the deal probably would have gotten done. Now they are looking at 2 years $69.1M and him entering FA or paying another $54.2M for 1 year. It was a massive mistake by the Cowboys. But, was it? Take a look at SB winning teams and look at the RESOUNDING number of them that have QBs on a rookie deal or way under market value, then compare to the ones that have paid their QB the big deal. Looking back 10 years, you have multiple Brady Championships, where he was grossly under paid, the only ones remotely arguable are Denver and that’s really more to do with a crazy D that was all on their rookie deals. Go way back and find the young Aaron Rodgers before he got the super deal and the same for Breese. You have to have a TEAM to win, that’s created by getting more value than you are paying. Right now they have paid out a ton and if they lock in Dak, they have 60% of their cap tied into less than 10 guys, it’s not going to work. The ONLY justification for paying him what he wants is this is your only window before complete tear down and even with that, you hold the cards for 2 years. The Bills window is this year and next or they have to replace Allen. If he can’t step up, they will have to draft the next guy. They can’t pay him 35M for mediocre play and keep all the pieces around him. Thus far he isn’t even in the conversation for a top 10 QB, and outside of Buffalo he’s looked at as bottom half of the starters. Yet if they want to go forward with him (assuming he has some increased success) it’s going to be 35M plus. He’s not that kind of difference maker. We are here talking about a 3rd round QB who, regardless of Buffalo sentiment, has had a far better start to his career and the argument is they shouldn’t pay him. 1
Behindenemylines Posted July 17, 2020 Author Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, SCBills said: Dak is definitely a QB that puts you in a tough spot as a franchise. He’s good. Probably not great. You can make the playoffs with him, but probably need a lot of talent around him to advance in the Playoffs. You can’t surround him with a ton of talent if you’re paying him what he’s looking for. He has Zeke, one of the best OL’s in football, along with one of the best WR units in Gallup/Cooper, now add Lamb. If you want to keep that offense together, with Dak, you’re going to have to rely on minimum contracts and rookie contracts to field a defense. At the same time, if you don't pay him... someone else likely will. Dak knows that. His agent knows that. Dallas knows that. Do you pay him, with your ceiling likely being consistent playoff contender?... That’s not a bad ceiling, but if the goal is to win Championships, he’s probably not the guy. This is also taking into account the potential that he keeps improving as he’s still a young(er) QB, but doesn’t really possess any elite traits in arm strength, mobility, accuracy, reading defenses etc. Very difficult decision if I’m Dallas - I honestly don’t know what I’d do. If you pay him, you’re just “hoping” he still makes another jump that his career/skill level doesn’t indicate he will. Well said, well said.
BeastMaster Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 12 hours ago, GunnerBill said: He can't buckle now. They can't talk now until the season ends. I am not basing it on numbers. You are wrong. Except about Allen having a better chance to become "special" you are right on that bit. Dak isn't ever going to be elite. Josh might. But Dak is a top 10 Quarterback. Now. Today. Already. Sorry, but nothing I have seen from him suggests that besides empty numbers on a loaded offensive roster. Agree to disagree, I suppose. Time will tell as always
Orlando Buffalo Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: Since the start of the Super Bowl era 2 QBs have 15,000 yards passing and 40 wins in their first 4 seasons - Dan Marino and Dak Prescott. I then honestly must only see his bad games. I have not watched as much as I used to but his game against Buffalo last year is similar to what I always see. He throws for 350 and 2 TDs but does not make plays to win the game. If his team was repeatedly losing shootouts I would not blame him but the offense is inconsistent. People can argue his good points, but I see him as a mid-level starting QB and at his cieling.
Like A Mofo Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 53 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I then honestly must only see his bad games. I have not watched as much as I used to but his game against Buffalo last year is similar to what I always see. He throws for 350 and 2 TDs but does not make plays to win the game. If his team was repeatedly losing shootouts I would not blame him but the offense is inconsistent. People can argue his good points, but I see him as a mid-level starting QB and at his cieling. Dak is a lot better then most give him credit for. He is considerably better then an average QB. I love that we have Josh Allen but if we didn't: Id take Dak on Buffalo in a heartbeat.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 17, 2020 Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I then honestly must only see his bad games. I have not watched as much as I used to but his game against Buffalo last year is similar to what I always see. He throws for 350 and 2 TDs but does not make plays to win the game. If his team was repeatedly losing shootouts I would not blame him but the offense is inconsistent. People can argue his good points, but I see him as a mid-level starting QB and at his cieling. That’s what it has to be. He’s played at a very high level since entering the league. He’s a top 10 guy right now. The weird part is that even though he’s only 26 he may never be a top 5 guy. At the same time his best season was his most recent one so it’s probably not fair to assume that he’s done progressing.
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