White Linen Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Very fair points. I guess the counter is some truly great QBs elevate their skill players. Besides Moss, Brady has made average to bellow average guys look much better than they are. Same with Rodgers. Russell Wilson has never played with a 1st round/ star receiver. but I think this is Allen’s Trent Edwards moment. The Bills had Evans and crazy TO and he couldn’t get it done. This should be a top 15 offense if we have good qb play. Brady, Rodgers and definitely Wilson didn't do that in their first 2 years. What all three of them had in common was they were surrounded by excellent offensive coaching in their formative years and beyond. This is something I'm concerned about. IMO, iIt's put up or shut up time for Daboll and McDermott offensively. Allen has the skills and Diggs elevates everything - so he finally has proper weapons. Can they help him or does he have to try and overcome them like many many other failed QB's have had to do in the NFL is the question.
SCBills Posted July 13, 2020 Author Posted July 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Very fair points. I guess the counter is some truly great QBs elevate their skill players. Besides Moss, Brady has made average to bellow average guys look much better than they are. Same with Rodgers. Russell Wilson has never played with a 1st round/ star receiver. but I think this is Allen’s Trent Edwards moment. The Bills had Evans and crazy TO and he couldn’t get it done. This should be a top 15 offense if we have good qb play. Wilson is the best QB in the game (IMO). Brady was the best QB in the game, and is the GOAT. Rodgers has had better talent than people give credit for. I mean Devante Adams is no slouch. He’s better than anyone Allen had last year. Still though, those are 3 of the greatest to ever play the game and most elite QBs have better talent around them than what Allen had last year. Let’s certainly hope second contract Allen is the type who can elevate a mediocre bunch. 1
Chandler#81 Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said: Barnwell is a POS. He also blocks people on Twitter who disagree with him like me. Great idea! I wish I could..☹️ 2
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, White Linen said: Brady, Rodgers and definitely Wilson didn't do that in their first 2 years. What all three of them had in common was they were surrounded by excellent offensive coaching in their formative years and beyond. This is something I'm concerned about. IMO, iIt's put up or shut up time for Daboll and McDermott offensively. Allen has the skills and Diggs elevates everything - so he finally has proper weapons. Can they help him or does he have to try and overcome them like many many other failed QB's have had to do in the NFL is the question. I mean Wilson had 52 td passes in his first 2 seasons, which I believe is a record. and this is where I get frustrated with the “excuses” for Allen. I hated the Daboll hire from the beginning. His track Record as an OC sucks. But it’s extremely rare a guy gets 3 years with the same OC. That is a huge advantage. mans the question I always ask is when is it’s Allen’s fault? His college coach was Carson Wentz’ college coach. You can argue the lack of talent at Wyoming but he is also playing against less talent. It’s not like a Power 5 conference. Not one person would argue about Allen’s skills. My issue has been is that he has never been a dominant player on any level. He has flashes of amazing plays but it’s never consistent. That might just be who he is. But as long as we canall agree that he has everything he needs to be successful, I’m excited to see the season play out. Huge tests this year that wi let us know what type of player he is. 1 minute ago, Chandler#81 said: Great idea! I wish I could..☹️ It’s interesting. On one hand, you could have thicker skin. But on the other hand, why deal with annoying people? 1
Chandler#81 Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: . It’s interesting. On one hand, you could have thicker skin. But on the other hand, why deal with annoying people? Cuz it’s my job. ?♂️
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 Just now, Chandler#81 said: Cuz it’s my job. ?♂️ Oh, I meant on social media haha. I know people who just complain about people on social media yet they never want to ignore them. 1
Don Otreply Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: So we now like Barnwell??? ? and there are zero excuses for Allen. His 3rd year in the same system with the same OC and head coach. A solid o line. A defense that carries the team. if this offense isn’t top half of the league (not a high bar), we don’t have the right guy. As an Allen fan I see this in a similar light as you do, Having the offense in the top half of the league will keep Allen as the undisputed starter, but he will need to show he can stay there and improve as needed. If not Beane and McDermott will have no choice but to start the process that finds his replacement. Fingers crossed that Allen advances his game as needed. I do think Josh knows full well that his future income and status is in the balance. Go Bills!!! 1
YattaOkasan Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: mans the question I always ask is when is it’s Allen’s fault? His college coach was Carson Wentz’ college coach. You can argue the lack of talent at Wyoming but he is also playing against less talent. It’s not like a Power 5 conference. For the college part I think UND is the top tier of their division and had the surrounding talent to help Wentz out. For Wyoming Josh was really the only threat his senior year. So I would say its the ability of the surround cast: Wentz's cast >> Allen's cast relative to their competition. Also agree its put up or shut up time. If he takes the jump he did from Year 1 to Year 2 this is a really good team and hes pushing to be a top 5 QB. I suspect a smaller jump to the top 12 range (better than average versus average right now) with more playoffs coming. 1
White Linen Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I mean Wilson had 52 td passes in his first 2 seasons, which I believe is a record. and this is where I get frustrated with the “excuses” for Allen. I hated the Daboll hire from the beginning. His track Record as an OC sucks. But it’s extremely rare a guy gets 3 years with the same OC. That is a huge advantage. mans the question I always ask is when is it’s Allen’s fault? His college coach was Carson Wentz’ college coach. You can argue the lack of talent at Wyoming but he is also playing against less talent. It’s not like a Power 5 conference. Not one person would argue about Allen’s skills. My issue has been is that he has never been a dominant player on any level. He has flashes of amazing plays but it’s never consistent. That might just be who he is. But as long as we canall agree that he has everything he needs to be successful, I’m excited to see the season play out. Huge tests this year that wi let us know what type of player he is. You changed the subject but my second point did too. Wilson, Rodgers and Brady did not make sub par players better in their first 2-3 years. I in turn get frustrated when legit points are deemed excuses. Anyone that thinks Allen has an equal chance to succeed as the QB's you mentioned, especially with advantage of hindsight, does not fully understand the problems with our offensive philosophy. Daboll is not good at his job and McDermott has a difficult time trusting offense. They have an opportunity to help or be a burden to Allen again. We'll see if McDermott can be a Belichick - by being a defensive coach while allowing the team to be lead by the offense.
SCBills Posted July 13, 2020 Author Posted July 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, White Linen said: You changed the subject but my second point did too. Wilson, Rodgers and Brady did not make sub par players better in their first 2-3 years. I in turn get frustrated when legit points are deemed excuses. Anyone that thinks Allen has an equal chance to succeed as the QB's you mentioned, especially with advantage of hindsight, does not fully understand the problems with our offensive philosophy. Daboll is not good at his job and McDermott has a difficult time trusting offense. They have an opportunity to help or be a burden to Allen again. We'll see if McDermott can be a Belichick - by being a defensive coach while allowing the team to be lead by the offense. Im definitely in the Allen-hype camp but I didn’t have much of an issue with Daboll last year. We had sub-par weaponry.. I know John Brown, Cole Beasley, Dawson Knox and Devin Singletary are exciting for what we’re used to, but that’s still a #2 WR as our #1, a slot as our #2 and two rookies. Watching the Playoffs proved we needed much more of an artillery. McDermott may be conservative or he may just have been trying to win games the best way he thought he could given a second year QB and limited weapons. As far as Daboll goes, Allen’s inability to hit the deep ball killed us. The NFL is a chunk yardage game if you want an explosive offense. Due to Allen missing guys that were open down the field, we were forced to methodically move the ball all game, which rarely leads to a productive offense - especially when we didn’t have any reliable chain movers in the passing game outside Cole Beasley. Knox was inconsistent and Brown is more of an intermediate/deep ball guy. Also, after Trent Edwards, I respect Allen for not checking down, but with Singletary and Moss as outlets, he better start doing that more this year. 1
marky Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, SCBills said: Players should be hyped up - they make a difference. Look no further than our Playoff game against the Texans. No Fuller, but still, Hopkins made plays in the second half. Our WR’s - Brown failed to toe-tap on the sideline for what could’ve been a pseudo-game winning catch. Duke Williams dropped a TD before half. That game, more than any other, highlighted the need to get Allen a “Diggs”. Watching our skill players vs all the other skill players in the playoffs was eye opening. Refs called back a TD. Stars are stars because they get protection from the other team's players and calls from the league. At the pro level, everyone has talent. Make your own stars through the hype train instead of pursuing stats and other people's hype. Or call their bluff. Fill the bench up with grinders, and Hopkins and Watson retire at halftime even if you have to give up points. Edited July 13, 2020 by beavis 1
White Linen Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, SCBills said: Im definitely in the Allen-hype camp but I didn’t have much of an issue with Daboll last year. We had sub-par weaponry.. I know John Brown, Cole Beasley, Dawson Knox and Devin Singletary are exciting for what we’re used to, but that’s still a #2 WR as our #1, a slot as our #2 and two rookies. Watching the Playoffs proved we needed much more of an artillery. McDermott may be conservative or he may just have been trying to win games the best way he thought he could given a second year QB and limited weapons. As far as Daboll goes, Allen’s inability to hit the deep ball killed us. The NFL is a chunk yardage game if you want an explosive offense. Due to Allen missing guys that were open down the field, we were forced to methodically move the ball all game, which rarely leads to a productive offense - especially when we didn’t have any reliable chain movers in the passing game outside Cole Beasley. Knox was inconsistent and Brown is more of an intermediate/deep ball guy. Also, after Trent Edwards, I respect Allen for not checking down, but with Singletary and Moss as outlets, he better start doing that more this year. I definitely agree that the lack of weapons was a massive issue which actually exacerbates Daboll's flaws even more. We would abandon the run continuously. Singletary would be having a 7.5 YPC game and he would call passing plays at alarming levels, then he'd bring in Gore and Singletary would be a non factor. He's maybe one of the worst play callers we've had, IMO. I do like a lot of his play designs but he lacks understanding of the flow of the game. I will never forgive him for having DiMarco as the X in overtime of the playoffs for several plays. That goes beyond just lack of play makers. 1
LABILLBACKER Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 I see them having a top 5 unit on both sides by 2021. Josh can't possibly screw this up.
NoSaint Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 10 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: So we now like Barnwell??? ? and there are zero excuses for Allen. His 3rd year in the same system with the same OC and head coach. A solid o line. A defense that carries the team. if this offense isn’t top half of the league (not a high bar), we don’t have the right guy. yup. Being better than average is his price of entry to the conversation these days. It won’t indicate he’s the guy, but is a step towards it as he hangs with the trajectory. If he falls short it’s trouble, if he’s good it’s on to the next test. 1
Ethan in Cleveland Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 9 hours ago, SCBills said: Wilson is the best QB in the game (IMO). Brady was the best QB in the game, and is the GOAT. Rodgers has had better talent than people give credit for. I mean Devante Adams is no slouch. He’s better than anyone Allen had last year. Still though, those are 3 of the greatest to ever play the game and most elite QBs have better talent around them than what Allen had last year. Let’s certainly hope second contract Allen is the type who can elevate a mediocre bunch. Rodgers has had a decent supporting cast. And Adams is great. The media was banging on GB for not taking a WR but they added 5 other offensive positions in the draft in addition to Love. They didn’t need another WR.
ganesh Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 15 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: 8 feels about right but 7 for the Giants feels asinine to me. That one jumped out at me (and I’m a big Saquon fan). and so for Carolina There are too many factors in play aand this list is this authors opinion.
Kirby Jackson Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, ganesh said: and so for Carolina There are too many factors in play aand this list is this authors opinion. Carolina at least has some elite weapons. McCaffrey is the best weapon in the league and DJ Moore is coming off almost 1,200 yards with Kyle Allen at QB. He’s a legit number 1. Robby Anderson is a nice #2 and Samuel is incredibly explosive. It’s not the deepest group beyond them but the top is strong. I don’t take much issue with their ranking. They belong in the top 10 somewhere anyways. I agree though that a list like this will always be polarizing because it’s all opinion. Edited July 14, 2020 by Kirby Jackson
DCOrange Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 Some of the rankings that jumped out to me personally: Patriots at 20. I guess he REALLY likes their RB stable, but it's hard for me to fathom ranking them this highly when he says from the jump that the WR position is the most important part. Seems like he has more faith in Sanu and Edelman than I do (mainly the Sanu part, I'm sure Edelman will be fine). Colts at 26. I'm probably higher on this supporting cast than most. Hilton is obviously great and I think Pittman will be good from day 1. Pascal/Campbell is whatever. Doyle/Burton is a solid TE duo and Mack/Taylor looks like a good RB tandem. In general, it seems like you could pretty much order the teens and 20s a ton of different ways and still make a decent case for it. Rams at 11. I know Higbee blew up the last few weeks of the year, but I have a really hard time ranking them nearly in the top 10 with two good WRs, a maybe good/maybe flash in the pan TE, and complete unknowns at RB and WR depth. Giants at 7. I'm not sure if this is totally wrong...their supporting cast is undeniably talented and deep. But it's weird to me that throughout the article, lower rated teams are specifically knocked for having a lot of talent but a lot of injury questions, and then he puts the Giants at 7 while saying they literally didn't get a single snap last season where everyone was on the field together due to all their injuries.
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