Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 56 minutes ago, SirAndrew said: It is, I just don’t want to see players turn this into some kind of deal about being victimized by the owners. Fair Just now, Mr. WEO said: The obvious point is that these athletes will be proven negative before in contact with other proven negative players and staff. None of that is afforded health care workers or supermarket workers, etc. No, that's not an "obvious point". 1) You can not "prove" someone negative with a diagnostic test that is believed to have an in-practice sensitivity of 70-80%. 2) Again - HCW can wear N95 respirators, face shields, gowns and gloves for when they can't physically distance themselves. Supermarket workers can likewise distance or barrier themselves, for the most part - and their contacts with the public are transient. It's not the same thing as working all day in the same facility as a group of guys, then playing a peak-exertion physically violent physical contact game lasting for >1 hr. And I know that you know this. Just now, Mr. WEO said: When did the fellas evacuate Florida for their workouts? As you know, someone named "Joe Croom" was "dropping" video of it this past week. Old stuff from his last posts a month ago? Yes. It's been stated repeatedly in the media, interviews etc they were there for less than 1 week.
Mr. WEO Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 56 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Fair No, that's not an "obvious point". 1) You can not "prove" someone negative with a diagnostic test that is believed to have an in-practice sensitivity of 70-80%. 2) Again - HCW can wear N95 respirators, face shields, gowns and gloves for when they can't physically distance themselves. Supermarket workers can likewise distance or barrier themselves, for the most part - and their contacts with the public are transient. It's not the same thing as working all day in the same facility as a group of guys, then playing a peak-exertion physically violent physical contact game lasting for >1 hr. And I know that you know this. Yes. It's been stated repeatedly in the media, interviews etc they were there for less than 1 week. You're being very disingenuous by insinuating that there is some genuine distrust of testing results because the sensitivity is what you claim. But you do understand that a sensitivity of 80% is infinitely greater than zero, which is the sensitivity of no testing. There is no testing of supermarket workers or their patrons prior to them entering the store. There is no testing of HCW's before they got to work (or at all, if asymptomatic), nor their patients (or visitors, etc) unless symptomatic of for elective surgery. So these players will have far more protection by the limitations of who they come in contact with (at work) and those persons current (as possible) testing status. If you have gone to the grocery store at all you will see no social distancing. Depending where you live, possibly no masking either (by shoppers). There is no real protection for these workers. And you certainly know that any amount of PPE has not prevented HCWs from the disease. Having 100 guys in a facility who test negative every day or two plus screening, plus limiting access to outsiders (no matter what degree of contact they have once they get in the door) results in a FAR safer environment than the other workers I have mentioned exist in. Suggesting otherwise is not persuasive, to say the least. 3 1 1
SirAndrew Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Misinformation and I don't get along. I don't believe you're an epidemiologist. So why are you so certain you know that? (hint: it is not true, or at least it's true only in specific locations where the virus has gone above a prevalence where pooled testing and contact tracing are efficacious) I'm quite aware that NYS did not eliminate the virus, but it's absolutely not true that HCW, sick people, and pre-op appointments are the only ones being tested. Stand and deliver please - so that we understand what you mean by "decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people everyday" and "big", please identify the local counties near you that are picking up "decent numbers of positive asymptomatic people every day" thus showing "community transmission is still big around here". Here's the list for your naming convenience: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/ I truly respect your opinions, and you come across as being very educated and informed. I apologize if I came across as thinking I know anything about this. I’m not a scientist, educator, or epidemiologist. I’m simply sharing personal anecdotes of what I’m seeing in the communities I work. I don’t have an appropriate link to the data I want, because it’s not out there on the web. Sure, I can find the numbers of positives for each county, but nothing shows when they occurred, such as using a line/bar graph with the months. Our local paper has the totals everyday. The numbers from back in early June have probably increased by about 1/4 in the last month, showing that our graph would be level, and not the downhill slope you really want. Health care workers in some of these rural areas are seeing more positives in the last month, than they saw in the first three months of this pandemic. It’s not raging out of control like it was in NYC, and our hospitalizations have gone down. Many of these positives are attributed to pre-op testing, and health care workers. I’m actually seeing this, and not just assuming this. When I see that, I can’t help but think this widespread in the community. I live in NY, but I don’t feel all warm and fuzzy about going out, even with a mask. We’ve seen a direct correlation between this increase and the opening of indoor dining and bars as well. I’m not denying NY state’s success, and the numbers aren’t a complete lie. NYC was a disaster that slowed greatly. The shutdown did its job of not overwhelming hospitals. We are not at risk for that up here at the time, so that’s a job well done. I’m just making the point that it’s reduced to a slow burn. If we don’t have a vaccine within the next few years, there’s going to be a ton of people who get this virus, even in NYS. It didn’t go anywhere, we just slowed it down. Eventually, all these states that are a disaster will slow the spread, but it’s still going to spread everywhere slowly until we have a vaccine. You understand that, so I’m not attempting to sound condescending, I just mean the sole purpose of this is to avoid overwhelming the system. The majority of the population will get this virus at some point if we can’t create a vaccine ASAP (I hope we can soon). As far as your suggestion that people other than HCW, pre-op testing, and sick people are being tested regularly, I’m curious to know who else you think is regularly tested ?
SirAndrew Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: You're being very disingenuous by insinuating that there is some genuine distrust of testing results because the sensitivity is what you claim. But you do understand that a sensitivity of 80% is infinitely greater than zero, which is the sensitivity of no testing. There is no testing of supermarket workers or their patrons prior to them entering the store. There is no testing of HCW's before they got to work (or at all, if asymptomatic), nor their patients (or visitors, etc) unless symptomatic of for elective surgery. So these players will have far more protection by the limitations of who they come in contact with (at work) and those persons current (as possible) testing status. If you have gone to the grocery store at all you will see no social distancing. Depending where you live, possibly no masking either (by shoppers). There is no real protection for these workers. And you certainly know that any amount of PPE has not prevented HCWs from the disease. Having 100 guys in a facility who test negative every day or two plus screening, plus limiting access to outsiders (no matter what degree of contact they have once they get in the door) results in a FAR safer environment than the other workers I have mentioned exist in. Suggesting otherwise is not persuasive, to say the least. I agree, if the testing thing works out, I could name a hundred other careers where I’d feel more at risk. Even in NY, the shining example of how to deal with the virus, only long term care workers are tested. Most other health care workers aren’t tested on a regular basis. The truth is, some HCW’s don’t even have the proper PPE yet, reusing masks for days, no N95’s, etc. I also think of all the construction workers and roofers I see packed together everyday, somewhat wearing their masks. NFL players rank somewhere mid level of the workers I’m most concerned about.
Mr. WEO Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, SirAndrew said: I agree, if the testing thing works out, I could name a hundred other careers where I’d feel more at risk. Even in NY, the shining example of how to deal with the virus, only long term care workers are tested. Most other health care workers aren’t tested on a regular basis. The truth is, some HCW’s don’t even have the proper PPE yet, reusing masks for days, no N95’s, etc. I also think of all the construction workers and roofers I see packed together everyday, somewhat wearing their masks. NFL players rank somewhere mid level of the workers I’m most concerned about. I'm in health care. I'm regularly exposed, never tested. No N95 outside of COVID units. Rewear caps, etc. All these pro sports players will be working in an environment of extreme health and safety privilege. No one should be confused about this. 2
Saxum Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said: As is it is his choice to not play What about players already paid to play with huge signing bonuses? I have not heard 1 player say "I do not think it is safe to play. I will give back portion of signing bonus for this year and will pay premium for benefits out of my own pocket." The players are talking about risks, uncertainties, worries, etc but none are talking about absorbing costs themselves in season when teams will be getting less money. If they were holding out they would be required to pay it back. Teams are counting on players to play and if someone is now willing to play they should tell team now so they can adjust plans not wait to season to start hoping it to be cancelled and hoping laywers will somehow be able to get NFL to pay them most if not all they would have gotten if they played. 1 1
Mr. WEO Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, KD in CA said: Who isn't? I'm concerned it will not start! 1 1
Saxum Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, KD in CA said: Who isn't? If it is about expecting someone else to pay for them not taking risk my wife isn't. She normally manages schools in summer and get paid additional money because it is not in her contract. She has done it in last 10 years. She told them she is not willing to work in summer for she found the summer plans adjusted for COVID-19 as unacceptable and took summer off. They had offered her 50% bonus.
Saxum Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: If you have gone to the grocery store at all you will see no social distancing. Depending where you live, possibly no masking either (by shoppers). There is no real protection for these workers. And you certainly know that any amount of PPE has not prevented HCWs from the disease. Maybe not where you live, perhaps because your life has negative value, but all supermarkets here except a few ethnic ones have requirements that all shoppers where masks, all cashiers have plexiglass shields in front of them, when workers are restocking customers are prevented from entering isle, shopping carts are cleaned before customers use. All have markings to keep distance between customers in lines and most have one directional markings on isles. Majority are restricting number of customers in store. In one store I was in there was shopper without mask and shopper was addressed by manager and told that shopper could not shop without a mask, bandanna or other gear. 1
JoPoy88 Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 lotta overreaction in this one. Diggs is fine. Isn't it okay if he expresses even tiniest bit of apprehension given what's going on? Seriously some of you have been looking for reasons to hate this guy since the day they traded for him. get over it. 1
Dr. K Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 My respect for Diggs's intelligence just went up. He's no fool. 1
Mr. WEO Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 21 minutes ago, Limeaid said: Maybe not where you live, perhaps because your life has negative value, but all supermarkets here except a few ethnic ones have requirements that all shoppers where masks, all cashiers have plexiglass shields in front of them, when workers are restocking customers are prevented from entering isle, shopping carts are cleaned before customers use. All have markings to keep distance between customers in lines and most have one directional markings on isles. Majority are restricting number of customers in store. In one store I was in there was shopper without mask and shopper was addressed by manager and told that shopper could not shop without a mask, bandanna or other gear. I said "depending on where you live" (I live in NY, where I and my fellow NY'ers are assured of a life of "positive value"). Many states do not have such requirements still. Even so, I can walk into Wegmans as we speak and see no distancing, despite all the snazzy floor markings. People are bumping into each other in the aisles at peak after work hours. No doubt you avoid the "ethnic ones", but I'm comfortable in assuming you would rather make millions playing a game in a scenario where there is the most rigid screening and testing encircling you....than put on your dirty old mask and bag groceries. 1
Mr. WEO Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 23 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said: lotta overreaction in this one. Diggs is fine. Isn't it okay if he expresses even tiniest bit of apprehension given what's going on? Seriously some of you have been looking for reasons to hate this guy since the day they traded for him. get over it. His timing is strange. I mean, if when the NFL announced on March 31 that the season would b played...while daily cases in NYS were exponentially increasing to their 7 day average PEAK of almost 10,000, Diggs said: "uh, hold on. You're going to go forward while this is going on...like this??"----I would say his concern is prescient. But he didn't. In fact, he has by all accounts been diligently preparing himself for a season in the NFL as scheduled. In July, he wonders if they should be playing NFL football, even as other leagues are all also going forward with published guidelines. In March, he didn't seem concerned about any safety precautions---they weren't even known. Now that the lengths that the league plans to go to to make it as safe as possible, he's not sure it should happen. Or, if he had said at any time: "I'm not playing", as have other pro sports stars....well, props would be his. In fact, the NFL and NFLPA have agreed to an opt out already. 1
SirAndrew Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I said "depending on where you live" (I live in NY, where I and my fellow NY'ers are assured of a life of "positive value"). Many states do not have such requirements still. Even so, I can walk into Wegmans as we speak and see no distancing, despite all the snazzy floor markings. People are bumping into each other in the aisles at peak after work hours. No doubt you avoid the "ethnic ones", but I'm comfortable in assuming you would rather make millions playing a game in a scenario where there is the most rigid screening and testing encircling you....than put on your dirty old mask and bag groceries. I have seen much of the same in NY. We’ve done some things right, but that doesn’t mean we are some utopia where everyone is wearing a mask, and maintaining social distances at all times. Yes, we’re doing better than states where masks weren’t even suggested, but behaving according to protocol is far from universal, even in NY. Masks are “required” in NY, but there’s only so much that can be done. So, you’re going to fight with a random customer over not wearing a mask for $12.00/hr, I don’t think so. I know someone who got spit on calling out a person for not wearing a mask. Conditions are far from ideal, as this pandemic as made people crazier than usual. I’d prefer to be on an NFL field than in a grocery store. 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: I'm in health care. I'm regularly exposed, never tested. No N95 outside of COVID units. Rewear caps, etc. All these pro sports players will be working in an environment of extreme health and safety privilege. No one should be confused about this. Thanks for the great point, my experiences have been much the same in the field. In fact I’d go out on a limb, and say I’d feel safer playing an NFL game than working in health care, or being a patient. There’s just a lot going on that blows my mind, and the safety of NFL players ranks low on my list of major concerns. I’m sure they won’t be reusing contaminated equipment for a week, putting both themselves and others at risk. 1
Augie Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 58 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said: lotta overreaction in this one. Diggs is fine. Isn't it okay if he expresses even tiniest bit of apprehension given what's going on? Seriously some of you have been looking for reasons to hate this guy since the day they traded for him. get over it. Anyone who does NOT agree with him is the person I worry about. He stated the obvious. What’s the big deal? 4
Saxum Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 1 hour ago, BillsPride12 said: Not looking good Evidently the NFLPA determined that sending a school of laywers and suing COVID-19 virus would work. laysuits is the NFLPA's best weapon.
HappyDays Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) Unfortunately a few states may have ruined it for the rest of us. If we had spent three weeks in a national lockdown early on the pandemic would be all but done by now. Our next chance was to have a national mask policy. Now that ship has sailed too. Several states are now getting close to ICU capacity and the death rate in those states has started going up again. A couple months ago I was optimistic that an NFL season would somehow happen. I underestimated how little this country trusts scientists. At this point I don't see how a season can happen until there is a vaccine. If they can somehow work a mask into the helmet that's the only way. Edited July 11, 2020 by HappyDays 2 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 5 hours ago, Augie said: People often use the term “shut downs” and think of it like an on/off light switch. I think it’s better to think of it in terms of a dimmer switch. Find the most dangerous environments like crowded bars and churches and determine solutions to reduce the damage done there. That may be closing for a while, or reducing occupancy, but it doesn’t mean we have to close the country and put everyone out of work. It’s a matter of being smart and working in degrees depending upon what is necessary. Right on! Four months ago we were just starting to learn about this virus. We had negligible testing capacity. We had low supplies of PPE. We had insufficient contact tracing. Shutting everything down is a crude “Hail Mary” of a public health step, but it was pretty much all we had. As well, public health officials in different countries had to process a lot of information in a hurry, synthesize it with how similar viruses behave, and take their best shot. Some early information was incorrect - for example, the WHO-China joint report stated that very few infections were asymptomatic and I think that influenced a lot of public health thinking, even in the face of mounting evidence it wasn’t true. We understand a lot more now. We have testing. We have better contact tracing, albeit not nearly as powerful as it could be. That means there’s a set of epidemiology tools that can be used. It’s just so mistaken to cast it as “the only way to control this is to shut everything down”. Unfortunately because of misinformation and lack of a clear, coherent message, a lot of people are unwilling to abide by some of the simple steps that can be taken. That’s not a failure of epidemiology or science per se. 1
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