DeSean Jackson posts anti-Semitic messages, quotes Hitler

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

16 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

If what JAHBH said at the top of the page is true:

 

Then the pride comes from the Confederacy, and their "resistance" to outside influence (telling them they cant own slaves).

 

If it comes from Antebellem, then that is the entire period of slavery. And celebrating a life of luxury afforded solely by the free labor of owning slaves.

 

Either way, theyre wrong.

 

There is simply nothing to be proud of from that time for the South.

 

Aren't you so righteous.  Your Northern ancestors (I presume) was going out on the town celebrating in their fancy dress, sleeping & ****** in those cotton sheets the same slaves picked and seeded.  Don't act like the North is so innocent in this; the North was a major importer of Southern Cotton, banks got rich, and provided loans to the South who purchased more land and slaves. 

[dorquemada]

29 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

If what JAHBH said at the top of the page is true:

 

Then the pride comes from the Confederacy, and their "resistance" to outside influence (telling them they cant own slaves).

 

If it comes from Antebellem, then that is the entire period of slavery. And celebrating a life of luxury afforded solely by the free labor of owning slaves.

 

Either way, theyre wrong.

 

There is simply nothing to be proud of from that time for the South.

 

Not disagreeing with anything you're saying Doc, except for that well under 10% of people living in the Confederacy States owned slaves.  The average white family in the South didn't own slaves, and some (look up Winston County, Alabama) did not secede from the Union at all because they didn't want to go to war to prop up the 1% of that day, and they were right regardless of any retrograde beliefs they may have held otherwise

[Niagara]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

There is simply nothing to be proud of from that time for the South.

I have felt the South had the right to secede and the Civil War unnecessary given the right to own slaves was written into the Constitution, and was a precondition for the support of the signing by the southern colonies. It was less than 100 years since the signing of the Declaration of Independence which said "When in the course of human events...." people can dissolve their government structure if it does not work.  

By 1860 the institution of slavery would have died out naturally in10 -15 years as it did around the world.

The brutality of the Civil War was amazing. Men in formation marching up hill against cannon fire. Sherman's march to the sea, a ten-mile swath of destruction highlighted by the burning of Atlanta its crowning horror. Lincoln signed on to it. The Southern Colonies should not have signed onto the union given how its participation played out. It was more than slavery at issue, it was a states rights at issue. Universal gay marriage, right of flag burning and abortion is a carry over of the Civil War. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Niagara

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, Niagara said:

I have felt the South had the right to secede and the Civil War unnecessary given the right to own slaves was written the Constitution, and was a precondition for the support of the signing by the southern colonies.

 

There's a lot going on here. Am I completely misunderstanding this post? If not, what the hell man.

[DrDawkinstein]

50 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Besides being a football player scout and Coach my whole life, I do have a history degree and it's a passion of mine

 

And again I don't think you could say anything good about slavery or the Confederacy

 

But the antebellum South was also a way of life , not just about slavery. the north was hustle and bustle and industry

 

The antebellum South was the opposite, slow pace of life, agriculture, no cities

 

50% of Southerners didn't own slaves, and not all were for it so it's hard to sometimes say everybody in the antebellum South was for slavery. Over 10000 Southerners fought for the Union.  The white poverty level in the antebellum South was very high as well, they weren't all rich

 

Playing devil's advocate, you said there's nothing to be proud of from that time.. what if your ancestors, freed slaves and gave them land and protected  them? It happened, and that would certainly make me proud if my family did that

 

As a whole , the time period was the darkest part of our history and there's no excuse for it

 

But with all parts of history, nothing is cut and dry right down the middle. There were good Southerners fighting the good fight

 

 

No one needs to play Devil's Advocate on behalf of the Antebellum South. There's plenty of devils there already.

 

I'll agree to walk back my statement of "There is simply nothing to be proud of from that time for the South." if you're saying we should be building statues and honoring the heritage of the famous slaves who ran the Underground Railroad and worked to free others, and the early-abolitionists who freed slaves and protected them.

 

That isnt the perspective that started this conversation though. And it CERTAINLY has played no role in what has been historically honored down here as "heritage". I dont know of any statues that were put up to honor plantation owners who voluntarily freed their slaves (maybe someone can enlighten me).

 

Agree to disagree, but knowing antebellum means "pre war", and the slow, agricultural lifestyle didnt change after the war, only the owning slaves part... Folks can say it celebrates the architecture, and clothing, and slow life of luxury, but ALL of that was built and afforded by slavery. It's all about the "good ol days"... of owning slaves.

 

Either way, I appreciate the discussion.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by DrDawkinstein

[dorquemada]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There's a lot going on here. Am I completely misunderstanding this post? If not, what the hell man.

 

There was a big fight during the constitutional convention over Slavery.   Lots of abolitionists wanted Slavery outlawed immediately, and obviously the southern states (though there were plenty of slaves in Northern states too, just not to the degree or of the type in the South) refused, and said they would not join the new nation.

 

There are other factors that caused the Civil war besides Slavery.  That was the obvious proximate cause and the moral rallying cry, but there were substantial economic reasons as well, including that the North was rapidly industrializing and competing directly with England, while the South was continuing to act more like a resource colony of England pitting the regions against eachother economically.  None of this, of course, should be construed as a defense of the Confederacy but the actual story is a little more complicated

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

No one needs to play Devil's Advocate on behalf of the Antebellum South. There's plenty of devils there already.

 

I'll agree to walk back my statement of "There is simply nothing to be proud of from that time for the South." if you're saying we should be building statues and honoring the heritage of the famous slaves who ran the Underground Railroad and worked to free others, and the early-abolitionists who freed slaves and protected them.

 

That isnt the perspective that started this conversation though. And it CERTAINLY has played no role in what has been historically honored down here as "heritage". I dont know of any statues that were put up to honor plantation owners who voluntarily freed their slaves (maybe someone can enlighten me).

 

Agree to disagree, but knowing antebellum means "pre war", and the slow, agricultural lifestyle didnt change after the war, only the owning slaves part... Folks can say it celebrates the architecture, and clothing, and slow life of luxury, but ALL of that was built and afforded by slavery. It's all about the "good ol days"... of owning slaves.

 

Either way, I appreciate the discussion.

 

 

 

I don't disagree that slavery had a huge impact on the way of southern life, and that some people got fat off of it

 

But there were plenty of Southerners who never owned slaves and fought for the Union and died to free the slaves. Those should be the southerners that are remembered

 

That is the southern history that people should be educated about

 

And it was a good discussion

Edited July 9, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Coach Tuesday]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There's a lot going on here. Am I completely misunderstanding this post? If not, what the hell man.

You’re not misunderstanding anything.  3/5 of a brain.  Maybe.

[Buffalo716]

@DrDawkinstein and I agree, there should be more statues of abolitionists, and underground railroad heroes

 

Those are real heroes

 

I do believe there are a few scattered around but not nearly enough

Edited July 9, 2020 by Buffalo716

[dorquemada]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't disagree that slavery had a huge impact on the way of southern life, and that some people got fat off of it

 

But there were plenty of Southerners who never owned slaves and fought for the Union and died to free the slaves. Those should be the southerners that are remembered

 

That is the southern history that people should be educated about

 

And it was a good discussion

 

Perhaps some statues across the South to the men who didn't secede and fought for the Union.  "Tories of The Hills" is a book about some of those people.  I dont really see it being available on Amazon but if you're interested it's in some libraries

[Putin]

7 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Can’t stand this guy ( on a football field )  but he’s 100 % right ,  

I still hate him GO BILLS 

[dorquemada]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

@DrDawkinstein and I agree, there should be more statues of abolitionists, and underground railroad heroes

 

Those are real heroes

 

I'd put Sojourner Truth on the $20 bill if it were up to me, preferably holding a pistol

[SDS]

This topic has left the original intention behind. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Besides being a football player scout and Coach my whole life, I do have a history degree and it's a passion of mine

 

And again I don't think you could say anything good about slavery or the Confederacy

 

But the antebellum South was also a way of life , not just about slavery. the north was hustle and bustle and industry

 

The antebellum South was the opposite, slow pace of life, agriculture, no cities

 

50% of Southerners didn't own slaves, and not all were for it so it's hard to sometimes say everybody in the antebellum South was for slavery. Over 10000 Southerners fought for the Union.  The white poverty level in the antebellum South was very high as well, they weren't all rich

 

Playing devil's advocate, you said there's nothing to be proud of from that time.. what if your ancestors, freed slaves and gave them land and protected  them? It happened, and that would certainly make me proud if my family did that

 

As a whole , the time period was the darkest part of our history and there's no excuse for it

 

But with all parts of history, nothing is cut and dry right down the middle. There were good Southerners fighting the good fight

 

 

 

...isn't it better to draw upon ALL of the country's history, whether good or bad, as lessons learned going forward?.......emulate the positives and avoid repeating the negatives.....what the hell does the "big pink eraser" do?.....NOTHING......

[Rob's House]

4 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I am super persuaded by the argument that it is un-American.  That said, for supporters of the Confederate monuments (I know this because my Mom's side is southern), the monuments represent Southern Pride and Honor. Much the same way Vermont, Texas, and California have these deeply independent traditions. For them, it isn't about being un-American, but projecting their strength against outside influence.  It became important to them decades after the civil war, when the south began to flounder as they lost their status under federal oversight and due to the industrial age.  Their resistance was what they had.  Today, we understand that the Confederate monuments are inseparable from slavery. But, for them, in their consciousness, they are separate and distinct issues. In other words, in their mind, they can oppose slavery but still idolize the bravery of their ancestors. Lastly, don't be so cavalier about "finding another symbol." I think you know it isn't that simple.

 

I disagree with the highlighted portion, but love the rest of what you have to say.

 

If I had to boil it down to one statement, our problem is we're more concerned with judging people than understanding them.

 

We're told to listen to others tell us about their experience before judging, but only the chosen few.

 

Most of the people who are quick to judge those of us who are resistant to the wholesale demonization of our heritage and ancestry have never taken the time to talk to us and really understand where we're coming from.

 

Symbols of pride in one's heritage are nearly universal throughout the world. Those of Irish, Greek, Jewish, Mexican, etc. ancestry regularly show pride in their heritage, despite their historical warts. Indian tribes with histories of unimaginable brutality are allowed to honor their heritage. Southerners however, have had that stripped away, and had the entirety of our heritage reduced to one aspect with no consideration of the circumstances of the time.

 

To most southerners, Confederate symbols are not symbolic of the Confederacy per se, but of a collective culture and identity common to the south.

 

In the 70s when the Dukes of Hazard put a Rebel flag on the General Lee, no one with any sense thought it was a symbol of racism. It was just some good ole southern boys who didn't mean any harm fighting the system like two modern day Robin Hoods. Now we pretend the Confederacy is synonymous with slavery and any related symbolism of the south is a glorification of slavery.

 

To the extent the raising of statues and flying of the battle flag were originally symbols of defiance toward anyone it was the north. Moreso, they were symbols of southern pride and perseverance, as well as symbols to honor their dead. Most southerners at the time had lost family and/or friends in the war. 

 

Nobody cares to understand because it's easier to shun nuanced analysis of complex situations in favor of binary judgments based on gross oversimplifications, just as it's easier to judge someone than to understand their experience and perspective.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Rob's House

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...isn't it better to draw upon ALL of the country's history, whether good or bad, as lessons learned going forward?.......emulate the positives and avoid repeating the negatives.....what the hell does the "big pink eraser" do?.....NOTHING......

Exactly why I think you can't paint the whole South in one light

 

And I meant a hundred thousand Southerners fought for the Union, not 10k

 

So I think everybody realizes the negative impact that slavery had on this country, its an abomination.. but I think it's also equally important, to realize that there were hundreds of thousands of Southerner's who fought to free the slaves, and millions who never owned them

 

That needs to be taught as well

 

I love history I think all parts need to be taught and I'm pretty unbiased to American history because my family is first generation American. My grandfather fled Germany while the Nazis were rising to power

[Rob's House]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Besides being a football player scout and Coach my whole life, I do have a history degree and it's a passion of mine

 

And again I don't think you could say anything good about slavery or the Confederacy

 

But the antebellum South was also a way of life , not just about slavery. the north was hustle and bustle and industry

 

The antebellum South was the opposite, slow pace of life, agriculture, no cities

 

50% of Southerners didn't own slaves, and not all were for it so it's hard to sometimes say everybody in the antebellum South was for slavery. Over 10000 Southerners fought for the Union.  The white poverty level in the antebellum South was very high as well, they weren't all rich

 

Playing devil's advocate, you said there's nothing to be proud of from that time.. what if your ancestors, freed slaves and gave them land and protected  them? It happened, and that would certainly make me proud if my family did that

 

As a whole , the time period was the darkest part of our history and there's no excuse for it

 

But with all parts of history, nothing is cut and dry right down the middle. There were good Southerners fighting the good fight

 

 

I have some quibbles with this, but I appreciate you bringing some nuanced perspective to the conversation.

[DrDawkinstein]

14 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...isn't it better to draw upon ALL of the country's history, whether good or bad, as lessons learned going forward?.......emulate the positives and avoid repeating the negatives.....what the hell does the "big pink eraser" do?.....NOTHING......

 

I dont think anything should be erased from record. But there is a lot that has been celebrated that absolutely shouldnt be.

[Niagara]

2 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

To the extent the raising of statues and flying of the battle flag were originally symbols of defiance toward anyone it was the north. More so, they were symbols of southern pride and perseverance, as well as symbols to honor their dead. Most southerners at the time had lost family and/or friends in the war. They weren't there to keep dark folks in their place.

 

Nobody cares to understand because it's easier to shun nuanced analysis of complex situations in favor of binary judgments based on gross oversimplification, just as it's easier to judge someone than to understand their experience and perspective.

Bingo!!! To defile the statues is akin to trashing grave markers.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

I have some quibbles with this, but I appreciate you bringing some nuanced perspective to the conversation.

I certainly would like to hear. I did a quick reply and Im far from perfect and like to learn everyday

 

I did not bring out my notebook so I just went off memory and my studies best I could