HamSandwhich Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Ham - You seem like a smart guy, and you're part of the way to seeing what you need to see. You do not condone racism. That's a good and important first step. That means you're a man or woman of good will, and that's half the battle. I was exactly where you are just two months ago. I'd encourage to just look and listen. I'm not blaming you, saying your guilty of anything or anything like that. I'm just saying start for something you agree with - that all people should be treated equally and have equal opportunity. That's what you almost certainly believe, and it's part of what you mean when you say you don't condone racism. Okay, if you keep that frame of mine and look at the history of black people in this country for the past 400, you can see that we never stopped treating black people using the same treatment we used when they were slaves: Southerners beat, imprisoned, and murdered young black men to keep them subdued. We still do that in the U.S. Southerners kept blacks impoverished, with substandard housing, substandard food, and substandard medical care. We still do that in the U.S. Southerners kept blacks uneducated. We still do that in the U.S. Southerners made blacks live in fear. We still do that in the U.S. The point is, it IS systemic. You and I don't even mean to do it to black people, but our culture does. It's a bad habit that we learned over hundreds of years, and we've only barely begun to change our habits. Unless and you and I are actively working to change, you and I are part of the problem. Justice demands that we actually set these people free. The only thing I see as unfair is where kids grow up. We need to make sure kids start from the same place. That’s it, there is no other systemic racism in this country. There are individual incidents, and perhaps even pockets, but I reject the intersectional, moral relativist, post modern bs that seeks to deconstruct everything this country stands for under the guise of social justice. The thing about social justice is that it’s a pretty little propaganda box that no one can disagree with lest they be called racist. It’s sounds great but is a house of cards if you look just below the surface. I have recently taken a few weeks to really look into myself and see if I can agree with what’s below the surface but all I can see is a power grab by another group, hell bent on creating an “other” (white people) to make a boogy man. Might as well call white people the bourgeoisie. Throw us all in the gulags because we’ve seen this movie already. The scary part is people are becoming complicit in this. 1
Shaw66 Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said: Ok so you’re saying we need to completely destroy the system and make it socialist/communist in nature. Gotcha. No, Ham. As I suggested, start from the fact that all people should be free and have equal opportunity. Watch the video again. All it does is explain how the overt racism of earlier eras was built into our systems in ways that cause racism to continue today, even though people no longer intend to be racist. That's all the video says. It doesn't propose socialist or communist solutions. In fact, I think seeking political change is a mistake. A lot of my politics are like yours. More government control over how people behave is a solution of last resort, so far as I'm concerned. What we need is for white people to understand that the system operates just as it's described in this video. What we need is for good people like you just to see it, to understand that we have some people in this country who continue to get screwed just because we've developed some bad habits based on the color of their skin. 2 1
HamSandwhich Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: No, Ham. As I suggested, start from the fact that all people should be free and have equal opportunity. Watch the video again. All it does is explain how the overt racism of earlier eras was built into our systems in ways that cause racism to continue today, even though people no longer intend to be racist. That's all the video says. It doesn't propose socialist or communist solutions. In fact, I think seeking political change is a mistake. A lot of my politics are like yours. More government control over how people behave is a solution of last resort, so far as I'm concerned. What we need is for white people to understand that the system operates just as it's described in this video. What we need is for good people like you just to see it, to understand that we have some people in this country who continue to get screwed just because we've developed some bad habits based on the color of their skin. I’ve heard all these grievances already, I do not agree. 1 1 1
Warcodered Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 12 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said: Ok so you’re saying we need to completely destroy the system and make it socialist/communist in nature. Gotcha. 1 2
Shaw66 Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 1 minute ago, HamSandwhich said: The only thing I see as unfair is where kids grow up. We need to make sure kids start from the same place. That’s it, there is no other systemic racism in this country. There are individual incidents, and perhaps even pockets, but I reject the intersectional, moral relativist, post modern bs that seeks to deconstruct everything this country stands for under the guise of social justice. The thing about social justice is that it’s a pretty little propaganda box that no one can disagree with lest they be called racist. It’s sounds great but is a house of cards if you look just below the surface. I have recently taken a few weeks to really look into myself and see if I can agree with what’s below the surface but all I can see is a power grab by another group, hell bent on creating an “other” (white people) to make a boogy man. Might as well call white people the bourgeoisie. Throw us all in the gulags because we’ve seen this movie already. The scary part is people are becoming complicit in this. Well, I think you're wrong about this, but I also agree with some of it. I think, for example, and I'm sure you'd agree, that we have built a civil rights establishment in this country, and the civil rights establishment is a self-perpetuating bureaucracy like most bureaucracies. But that doesn't mean that the reason the establishment into existence didn't exist. It just means there's a problem with the bureaucracy. I mean, my blood boils every time I see Al Sharpton show up somewhere. The interesting thing to me about what's happening, and it's something that ought to give you at least a little comfort, is that a lot of white people like me are finally getting the message that we are the problem and we are the ones who have to fix it. The problem won't be solved by filling Congress with black people. It will be solved by white people talking to each other and agreeing that the society that we control really ought to be a free country to truly everyone. We all believe it; we just have been less than perfect in creating that free country. That's all. 2
LeGOATski Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 I just can't relate. The only way the NFL affects me is through the actual game play. I want to watch football and see the Bills win. I also support other football leagues like the AAF and XFL because I want to watch football. I couldn't care less if they're propping up some social causes in their broadcast. At the very most, it might start a discussion with my family or friends watching with me, which I'm happy to have. 5
Shaw66 Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said: I’ve heard all these grievances already, I do not agree. That's okay. As I said, you're obviously someone who is thinking about this stuff and examining his own thoughts. For me, something happened one day after George Floyd, and the light went on. Suddenly, I could see what many, many people have said for decades but that I kept convincing myself wasn't really what's going on. I hope the light goes on for you. Thanks for chatting. I enjoyed it. Just now, LeGOATski said: I just can't relate. The only way the NFL affects me is through the actual game play. I want to watch football and see the Bills win. I also support other football leagues like the AAF and XFL because I want to watch football. I couldn't care less if they're propping up some social causes in their broadcast. At the very most, it might start a discussion with my family or friends watching with me, which I'm happy to have. I care, but I separate them. It's like when the Bills send me survives about the fan experience at the stadium. My answers are all the same: give me a comfortable seat with decent sightlines, good video replays and a lot of functional bathrooms to minimize the lines. I couldn't care less about the entertainment. I care deeply about racism and social justice. I can have both my feelings about football and social justice without finding it necessary to mix them. 2
Augie Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, NewEra said: You’re entitled to do whatever you like. Later WAIT! Is this like Free Beer..........tomorrow? I’m not falling for that again! 1
Buffalo Boy Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 2 hours ago, BigBillsFan said: Since the NFL has decided to promote political agendas outside of being a US citizen and chose to promote groups hostile to my family than I have decided to renounce my fanhood in the NFL. I hope many of you decide to join me and if you continue to watch just because you need a way to escape do not have any financial contributions to watching games and watch game solely in sports bars so that the NFL cannot directly contribute to the ratings. Laughably I am a “Minority” and the reason why it’s laughable is that one’s voice should be based on the truth of the statement and not on the basis of skin color. As a Native American I do not find the Buffalo Bills name offensive and while our history may have had moments of embarrassment we are stronger when we look for the truth of why our country is as great as it is and why people of all races and creeds wish to come here. I support black lives, rights and families but anything in support of the Black Lives Matter movement is an insult to families, black or whatever race, who built this game and passed it on to their children with their mission statement to abolish the nuclear family and support for Marxist ideology. If you think that you can escape the consequences of believing that everything is to be criticized and nothing loved and than trust me eventually everything will be persecuted including you. The powers of the league and society in general know that they can abuse after you because you are the hard-working and you are the people most responsible for your own personal actions and love your downtime so they think that they can bully you to accept getting kicked. Whether you plan on watching this year or not let the NFL know how displeased you are. This is how they get to bully you. They use the threats of complaining which as responsible adults we see as childish and adolescent but we forget these people hate us and they hate our families and don’t ever underestimate wicked people. The cheap insults I expect from petty people shouldn’t bother you. They just know that you are a good person they can use insults whereas you find them to be morally reprehensible. Never let weak bullies corner you. Fight back now. It is our Independence. God bless America 1
LeGOATski Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I care, but I separate them. It's like when the Bills send me survives about the fan experience at the stadium. My answers are all the same: give me a comfortable seat with decent sightlines, good video replays and a lot of functional bathrooms to minimize the lines. I couldn't care less about the entertainment. I care deeply about racism and social justice. I can have both my feelings about football and social justice without finding it necessary to mix them. Sounds like we're in the same boat. I can't imagine the NFL or any other pro sports organization saying anything in their broadcast that would deeply upset me enough to stop watching. I'm more concerned about the systemic cheating in the NFL. How are they going to fix their officiating....
Warcodered Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 46 minutes ago, Rob's House said: That's funny. I only see one set of people being "systemically" cancelled, silenced, and marginalized, and they aren't the people you're talking about. In fairness, every 200 year old black guy I know had it a lot harder than the new generation of oppressed minorities. It's not a bad deal, all the victim status, sympathy, and special treatment without having to suffer actual oppression yourself. 1
Mike in Horseheads Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 50 minutes ago, njbuff said: Watch out. You are going to be called the "R" word. ? Takes one to know one.
njbuff Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 Just now, Mike in Horseheads said: Takes one to know one. You would know.
Big Turk Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 23 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Well, I think you're wrong about this, but I also agree with some of it. I think, for example, and I'm sure you'd agree, that we have built a civil rights establishment in this country, and the civil rights establishment is a self-perpetuating bureaucracy like most bureaucracies. But that doesn't mean that the reason the establishment into existence didn't exist. It just means there's a problem with the bureaucracy. I mean, my blood boils every time I see Al Sharpton show up somewhere. The interesting thing to me about what's happening, and it's something that ought to give you at least a little comfort, is that a lot of white people like me are finally getting the message that we are the problem and we are the ones who have to fix it. The problem won't be solved by filling Congress with black people. It will be solved by white people talking to each other and agreeing that the society that we control really ought to be a free country to truly everyone. We all believe it; we just have been less than perfect in creating that free country. That's all. He is wrong and its been proven through study after study after study decade after decade after decade. At this point if he wants to continue believing that he is actively choosing to bury his head in the sand. It's called implicit bias and everyone has it even if they don't think they do or even know about it. And it isn't just white versus black it pretty much has been shown to be something that every race is guilty of which means it is a human condition and something that humans suffer from in general. 3
klos63 Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 I'd stop following if they tried to encourage racism or unequal justice, not the other way around. But that's me. 3
Rob's House Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, Warcodered said: You're proving my point. 2 minutes ago, klos63 said: I'd stop following if they tried to encourage racism or unequal justice, not the other way around. But that's me. They are, just not the kind you have a problem with. 1 2
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 4, 2020 Posted July 4, 2020 Non-Diversity. What's 180° the other way? And... The answer is NOT "diversity." The answer is: "The shoe is just on the other foot." Trust me. I live it.
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