Redskins facing severe pressure to change name.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, MJS said:

I say white players are well dressed and well spoken as well. And I say black players are smart players too.

 

Discuss...

 

Or let's not.  It's this, I do believe:

 

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Wow, just wow!!! Are you stating that it's a given that black people do not use proper English and that their writing gives it away? Subtle clues? OUCH!!!

 

You probably are not a racist, but this is the way you sound. Imo, talking about "subtle clues" is in a league with calling black people "well dressed" or "well spoken," or even calling white people "smart players."

 

Again, I strongly doubt that you are a racist, but; imho your post did not come off very well at all.

 

I’ve not been following the back and forth here, only commenting on the bold. I was watching TV with my wife recently and she commented on someone, mentioning that person was “well spoken”.  She was referring to a young white guy (golfer?). 

 

I was watching tennis one night and texting with a couple tennis buddies. After the match they interviewed a young black player and I texted that she was very well spoken. My black buddy mentioned that some people would consider that racist. Huh? I had never heard anything like that before. Why? It’s a compliment! We went back and forth for a while. He’s a good friend and knew I meant nothing but exactly what I said, he was just teaching me. We have different life experiences, and you don’t know what you don’t know.

 

If that is his reality, I need to try to be aware of it. He’s the same guy who thought it was hysterical that I had not realized the cop cars changed their paint jobs. “HEY! Guys! He doesn’t even notice!” Everyone thought that was funny at the park. I was the only white guy present. 

 

I pointed this out to my wife so she doesn’t inadvertently step in it the way I did. Part of what we need is more communication and education. 

[LB3]

2 hours ago, section122 said:

 

You have been very staunch in your position but have you ever thought to listen.  I mean truly listen. 

The rest of your post aside, this is always my favorite line from people. It's completely disingenuous because it leaves out the conclusion of the conditional statement being presented.

 

Would you truly accept that he listened if he didn't change his mind after listening?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

To add to the further discrediting of @Rob's House anecdotal evidence...

 

There is absolutely no way another Professor was brought in and simply told to grade the paper without that Prof asking why he needed to do so.  The "new" Prof would have worked in the same department as the old one and would have been very aware of why he was doing it.

 

There you go with your "academe is a small world and these folks all know each other, especially at the same school" theory.  He or she could have been on sabbatical in a cabin in Northern Ontario without internet access, or (kept in a hermetically sealed case) at another uni or something like that. 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

I’ve not been following the back and forth here, only commenting on the bold. I was watching TV with my wife recently and she commented on someone, mentioning that person was “well spoken”.  She was referring to a young white guy (golfer?). 

 

I was watching tennis one night and texting with a couple tennis buddies. After the match they interviewed a young black player and I texted that she was very well spoken. My black buddy mentioned that some people would consider that racist. Huh? I had never heard anything like that before. Why? It’s a compliment! We went back and forth for a while. He’s a good friend and knew I meant nothing but exactly what I said, he was just teaching me. We have different life experiences, and you don’t know what you don’t know.

 

If that is his reality, I need to try to be aware of it. He’s the same guy who thought it was hysterical that I had not realized the cop cars changed their paint jobs. “HEY! Guys! He doesn’t even notice!” Everyone thought that was funny at the park. I was the only white guy present. 

 

I pointed this out to my wife so she doesn’t inadvertently step in it the way I did. Part of what we need is more communication and education. 

This is the larger point, and good on you for bringing it up.

 

Situations regarding race and how different people view and experience society are inherently DIFFERENT. Being open to the idea that your frame of reference isn't shared by everyone is the best way forward imo.

 

And not to get into the weeds, but the one of the reasons discussing race gets complicated is because the concept of diversity has been incorrectly set in opposition to the end goal of equality. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, LB3 said:

The rest of your post aside, this is always my favorite line from people. It's completely disingenuous because it leaves out the conclusion of the conditional statement being presented.

 

Would you truly accept that he listened if he didn't change his mind after listening?

 

It would depend upon the evidence that he actually listened and processed anything that was said IMO

[LB3]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It would depend upon the evidence that he actually listened and processed anything that was said IMO

Other than a reversal of his position, what evidence would you accept?

[aceman_16]

1 hour ago, section122 said:

 

To add to the further discrediting of @Rob's House anecdotal evidence...

 

There is absolutely no way another Professor was brought in and simply told to grade the paper without that Prof asking why he needed to do so.  The "new" Prof would have worked in the same department as the old one and would have been very aware of why he was doing it.

Yes it happens. I worked as a professor for 13 years and I have done it a few times. In fact, sometimes the other professors asked me recognizing they may have a bias (one way or another). Sometimes it was because the department chair took a complaint alleging malfeasance.

 

I have had a peer look over a paper once before. Since that time, however, i would have the students put their names on the last page of the paper to help eliminate biases....and YES I would have biases. Oftentimes,  I was shocked to the quality of the paper in both directions as compared to the student.

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Thank you, Bill.  I will be watching with great interest to see what replies are received to calling "racist" the suggestion that a professor reading a paper written by a student who may have grown up in a different culture may subconsciously recognize those cultural differences, and depending upon the details of his or her grading policy and rubric, that may result in marking it down. ?

Do you think that replies on this board will absolutely dictate whether or not your comment/assumption could be construed to be tinged with, or taken as a racism?

Edited July 7, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

Part of what we need is more communication and education. 

Absolutely Augie! Of this there can be no doubt.

 

The most intelligent person I ever met was a black Dartmouth professor who taught my daughter. He was from Bedford Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. When asked a question, he would quote not only a book but the page of the book, and not a book they were using in class. The man memorized pages of books that he read. Before the graduation ceremony, he and my daughter were talking about how much they hated the word paradigm, and how it is misused "about 80% of the time."  Do you think that I felt out of place lol? I am just a street guy from Queens.

 

My question is, would someone read the professor's writing and suspect that he is black? This was the point that I was trying to make to HBF.  Very often, people who view themselves as "liberal" are often guilty of the same racial insensitivity that they accuse others of. 

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Absolutely Augie! Of this there can be no doubt.

 

The most intelligent person I ever met was a black Dartmouth professor who taught my daughter. He was from Bedford Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. When asked a question, he would quote not only a book but the page of the book, and not a book they were using in class. The man memorized pages of books that he read. Before the graduation ceremony, he and my daughter were talking about how much they hated the word paradigm, and how it is misused "about 80% of the time."  Do you think that I felt out of place lol? I am just a street guy from Queens.

 

My question is, would someone read the professor's writing and suspect that he is black? This was the point that I was trying to make to HBF.  Very often, people who view themselves as "liberal" are often guilty of the same racial insensitivity that they accuse others of. 

[aceman_16]

1 hour ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Doubt it 100%, but so what if they did?

Yeah.... so you quoted a response massively out of context. Congrats you just became the MSM.

 

Ps and go back and read what this was a response to - it sorta matters

[Augie]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Absolutely Augie! Of this there can be no doubt.

 

The most intelligent person I ever met was a black Dartmouth professor who taught my daughter. He was from Bedford Stuyvesant in Brooklyn. When asked a question, he would quote not only a book but the page of the book, and not a book they were using in class. The man memorized pages of books that he read. Before the graduation ceremony, he and my daughter were talking about how much they hated the word paradigm, and how it is misused "about 80% of the time."  Do you think that I felt out of place lol? I am just a street guy from Queens.

 

My question is, would someone read the professor's writing and suspect that he is black? This was the point that I was trying to make to HBF.  Very often, people who view themselves as "liberal" are often guilty of the same racial insensitivity that they accuse others of. 

 

I kinda hate to enter this fray, but there is a story I’ve told here before....and I think it’s time to retell it. Several years ago I had a nice house in Buckhead listed for lease. (It had been leased to an NBA player, and he got traded.) I got a call from a lady who wanted to see the property. She introduced herself over the phone as Ms Johnson. A bit unusual as most people give their full name, but fine with me. I just want a good tenant!

 

It turns out she is a FANTASTIC prospect. Prestigious law school, stable position as a corporate attorney for one of the leading companies in Atlanta. Perfect credit, very low debt/income ratio....IDEAL in every way. It became clear to me that she didn’t share her first name until we met at the property because one might have immediately jumped to the conclusion that she was black. This HIGHLY accomplished individual felt she needed to hide that fact lest she possibly not have the same opportunity to lease this property that someone far less qualified might have.  That made me sad. 

 

This happens in a lot of different ways, not just with names. What school(s) you attended, what you eat, what part of town you live in and so on can all be clues for those who are looking....consciously or otherwise. It’s like age, you can’t ask about age, can’t discriminate based upon it, but you see what year they graduated and how many years of experience they have.....and it tells you something. It’s not always intentional, but it happens. 

 

I see what you’re saying, but I think you are giving some people too much credit. YOU may not look for or see the clues, but some people do. For that reason, good people need to protect themselves against that. We may not see that from where we sit, but their life experience tells us it’s real. ALL of us, and I mean ALL as in EVERYBODY on all sides, need to do more listening if we really want to learn and improve. Some of the things I thought I knew, things that made sense to me, turned out to be very different for others. 

 

 

.

 

 

.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Augie

[aceman_16]

11 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

I really don't give a rat's a$$ about a false equivalency.

..Ever hear of tongue, in cheek????

Sometimes it is not good to come out of a safe room too early.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by aceman_16

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

13 minutes ago, aceman_16 said:

Sometimes it is not good to come out of a safe room too early.

 

 

 

 

if I may.   Use the ignore feature. 
 

it’s saved me from responding to these type of exchanges. 
 

 

[aceman_16]

1 minute ago, BUFFALOBART said:

You should take your meds, and remained locked in your rubber room..............

Good idea! Thank you for your consideration.

[aceman_16]

37 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

if I may.   Use the ignore feature. 
 

it’s saved me from responding to these type of exchanges. 
 

 

I followed your advice. Thank you.

[MJS]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I kinda hate to enter this fray, but there is a story I’ve told here before....and I think it’s time to retell it. Several years ago I had a nice house in Buckhead listed for lease. (It had been leased to an NBA player, and he got traded.) I got a call from a lady who wanted to see the property. She introduced herself over the phone as Ms Johnson. A bit unusual as most people give their full name, but fine with me. I just want a good tenant!

 

It turns out she is a FANTASTIC prospect. Prestigious law school, stable position as a corporate attorney for one of the leading companies in Atlanta. Perfect credit, very low debt/income ratio....IDEAL in every way. It became clear to me that she didn’t share her first name until we met at the property because one might have immediately jumped to the conclusion that she was black. This HIGHLY accomplished individual felt she needed to hide that fact lest she possibly not have the same opportunity to lease this property that someone far less qualified might have.  That made me sad. 

 

This happens in a lot of different ways, not just with names. What school(s) you attended, what you eat, what part of town you live in and so on can all be clues for those who are looking....consciously or otherwise. It’s like age, you can’t ask about age, can’t discriminate based upon it, but you see what year they graduated and how many years of experience they have.....and it tells you something. It’s not always intentional, but it happens. 

 

I see what you’re saying, but I think you are giving some people too much credit. YOU may not look for or see the clues, but some people do. For that reason, good people need to protect themselves against that. We may not see that from where we sit, but their life experience tells us it’s real. ALL of us, and I mean ALL as in EVERYBODY on all sides, need to do more listening if we really want to learn and improve. Some of the things I thought I knew, things that made sense to me, turned out to be very different for others. 

 

I just don't think it's possible to not look for "clues" into things. We are hard wired to be constantly taking in mountains of information and categorizing it in order to make decisions. The magnitude of information we are bombarded with constantly requires all of us to simplify and categorize, judge and assess. Pretty much constantly.

 

We are looking for easy patterns to quickly process that information. When we are confronted with new, unseen information it takes us far longer to process it.

 

So no, I don't think it's possible to NOT do that (especially today when the topic of race is so top of mind), nor do I think it is a bad thing at all. What you choose to do with that categorized information is a different story. If you deduce that someone is black or white or asian or any other race, there is nothing wrong with that. If that leads you to racist thoughts or tendencies, that's when it's a problem.

[Augie]

29 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

I just don't think it's possible to not look for "clues" into things. We are hard wired to be constantly taking in mountains of information and categorizing it in order to make decisions. The magnitude of information we are bombarded with constantly requires all of us to simplify and categorize, judge and assess. Pretty much constantly.

 

We are looking for easy patterns to quickly process that information. When we are confronted with new, unseen information it takes us far longer to process it.

 

So no, I don't think it's possible to NOT do that (especially today when the topic of race is so top of mind), nor do I think it is a bad thing at all. What you choose to do with that categorized information is a different story. If you deduce that someone is black or white or asian or any other race, there is nothing wrong with that. If that leads you to racist thoughts or tendencies, that's when it's a problem.

 

It’s when we judge that problems ensue. The fact that so many people fear being judged tells us it’s much too real to them and we all need to do a better job. I thought I was good, but some friends pointed out how they saw some things differently than I did. I still don’t agree that calling someone “well spoken” should be thought racist, but I’m trying to understand their point of view. We all look at life from different angles. It’s not a one size fits all experience. 

 

 

.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Augie

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

It’s when we judge that problems ensue. The fact that so many people fear being judged tells us it’s much too real to them and we all need to do a better job. I thought I was good, but some friends pointed out how they saw some things differently than I did. I still don’t agree that calling someone “well spoken” should be thought racist, but I’m trying to understand their point of view. We all look at life from different angles. It’s not a one size fits all experience. 

 

It's impossible NOT to judge. That's my point. Judgements can be poor, though. Each person has to work on having better and better judgement.