2004 Bills still the best team of the 2000 era?

[Doc]

48 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

But did they not also play pretty much bottom feeders for that 6 game stretch too?

Yes they did. Serves me right for listening to others. 

[Jobot]

In Football, you can't have a glaring "hole" on your team and be considered a "Good Team". You can have the most sophisticated radar/navigation system on the planet, but without the other pieces in place, you get exposed and the ship gets shot down quickly. I think this has been made so apparent by the current regime in plugging up the holes that caused the entire ship to sink in previous years. This is the only true "TEAM" that I can remember watching take the field in Buffalo.

[ganesh]

On 6/28/2020 at 4:56 PM, Foxx said:

huh.. my memory was that we lost to a bunch of mostly third stringers.

And we allowed their 3rd string QB to convert a 4th and 3 (by running the ball)  in our house in the 4th quarter with the game in the balance. 

[C.Biscuit97]

5 hours ago, eball said:

I never thought the 2004 team was “good” — in fact they were pretty brutal through the first nine games of the season.  Bledsoe was essentially done, even though they had Moulds/Evans/McGahee.  The defense was opportunistic but not a “shut ‘em down” unit.  The six-game streak was dominant but they beat the Rams (8-8), Seahawks (9-7), Fish (4-12), Browns (4-12), Bengals (8-8), and 49ers (2-14) — not exactly Murderers’ Row.  I’ll always give Mularkey credit for holding the team together when they were 3-6 (remember the cheeseburgers?) but I think last year’s squad beats that team 8 out of 10 times.

You think every Bills team is great.  I’d love to see your posts from 2004.  You were probably saying that they were the best team since the 90s. Liar.

 

and 2004 Bledsoe was a better quarterback than Josh Allen.

Edited June 29, 2020 by C.Biscuit97

[eball]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You think every Bills team is great.  I’d love to see your posts from 2004.  You were probably saying that they were the best team since the 90s. Liar.

 

I was probably very excited during the six-game run like ANY fan would be.  You've got a problem, buddy.

[C.Biscuit97]

45 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I was probably very excited during the six-game run like ANY fan would be.  You've got a problem, buddy.

Haha. I was over the top in my excitement about that team.  They were legit good.  But, and I mean this as respectfully as possible, you have zero objectivity.  

[eball]

17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Haha. I was over the top in my excitement about that team.  They were legit good.  But, and I mean this as respectfully as possible, you have zero objectivity.  

 

Hey, man, I'm not the one crying about how many times the Bills hurt me, and rest assured, I don't lose any sleep over how I root for the Bills or how I post on this forum.  I couldn't care less how a knucklehead like you feels about me.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, eball said:

 

Hey, man, I'm not the one crying about how many times the Bills hurt me, and rest assured, I don't lose any sleep over how I root for the Bills or how I post on this forum.  I couldn't care less how a knucklehead like you feels about me.

“I don’t care how you feel yet I’m going to name call.” ?. Dude, you’re a joke.  No one has been consistently more wrong than you.  Be happy you can puff up your chest behind a screen because your confidence won’t be nearly as big in person.  It’s kinda hilarious so enjoy it.  
 

and since I’m the bigger person (both mentally and physically), I will take the high road.  But you’re a good homer fan.  Zero ability in any real football knowledge but a good fan.  I genuinely respect it. Honestly. 

[teef]

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

“I don’t care how you feel yet I’m going to name call.” ?. Dude, you’re a joke.  No one has been consistently more wrong than you.  Be happy you can puff up your chest behind a screen because your confidence won’t be nearly as big in person.  It’s kinda hilarious so enjoy it.  
 

and since I’m the bigger person (both mentally and physically), I will take the high road.  But you’re a good homer fan.  Zero ability in any real football knowledge but a good fan.  I genuinely respect it. Honestly. 

looks like someone forgot their meds today.

[GunnerBill]

@eball & @C.Biscuit97 - come on you are both better than that. You are both good posters with different perspectives. Doesn't need to descend to squabbling. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, teef said:

looks like someone forgot their meds today.

Quiet nerd

[eball]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

“I don’t care how you feel yet I’m going to name call.” ?. Dude, you’re a joke.  No one has been consistently more wrong than you.  Be happy you can puff up your chest behind a screen because your confidence won’t be nearly as big in person.  It’s kinda hilarious so enjoy it.  
 

and since I’m the bigger person (both mentally and physically), I will take the high road.  But you’re a good homer fan.  Zero ability in any real football knowledge but a good fan.  I genuinely respect it. Honestly. 

 

I'm sorry for calling you a "knucklehead" -- I keep forgetting how fragile you are and that scathing attack must have really stung.

 

[C.Biscuit97]

8 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I'm sorry for calling you a "knucklehead" -- I keep forgetting how fragile you are and that scathing attack must have really stung.

 

“I'm sorry for calling you a "knucklehead" -- I keep forgetting how fragile you are and that scathing attack must have really stung”

[billsfan89]

That 2004 defense is in my opinion by far the best defense in the modern NFL to not make the playoffs. The 2004 defense was insane. Pat Williams and Sam Adams were beastly hippos that clogged the middle while Schobel was a dam fine speed rusher off the edge. Behind them was London and TKO two Pro-Bowl LB's. The secondary featured Nate and McGee as a quality pairing of corners and they also had Miloy and Vincent as one of the better safety pairings in the league. 

 

Comparing the 2004 to 2019 teams I would give the defenses a push, a possible slight edge to the 2004 on special teams but an edge on offense to the 2019 team. But while both teams are comparable talent wise. The coaching makes the huge difference. The 2004 defense had 5-6 legit pro-bowl talents and another 3-4 high quality starters on it and a few good depth pieces. The 2019 defense was 4-5 Probowl/high quality players and then just a bunch of starting caliber guys. But the 2019 defense rolled huge with depth and insane with how well they were coached. 

 

The 2019 team played much more disciplined and had more talent on offense and a better QB. Whereas the 2004 team was a team that rode a hot RB and a hot defense but would always be shaky in big moments. Outside of the Cleveland game the Bills rarely threw away games. Whereas I felt like in 2004 this team always had a knack to give away games. 

[SirAndrew]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You think every Bills team is great.  I’d love to see your posts from 2004.  You were probably saying that they were the best team since the 90s. Liar.

 

and 2004 Bledsoe was a better quarterback than Josh Allen.

I’m not fitting Josh for his jacket in Canton, but I can’t agree that 2004 Bledsoe > Josh Allen. The numbers are similar, but Allen’s ability to run adds another dimension. Bledsoe was an average or below average QB at the time, who was a total statue in the pocket. Bledsoe lost to the Steelers backups to miss the playoffs. Allen has many flaws, but he doesn’t lose that type of game. Bledsoe was checked out and well past his prime. Criticize Allen all you want, but he plays with fire. Bledsoe played older than his chronological age in 2004, and was completely washed up. 

[billsfan89]

11 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I’m not fitting Josh for his jacket in Canton, but I can’t agree that 2004 Bledsoe > Josh Allen. The numbers are similar, but Allen’s ability to run adds another dimension. Bledsoe was an average or below average QB at the time, who was a total statue in the pocket. Bledsoe lost to the Steelers backups to miss the playoffs. Allen has many flaws, but he doesn’t lose that type of game. Bledsoe was checked out and well past his prime. Criticize Allen all you want, but he plays with fire. Bledsoe played older than his chronological age in 2004, and was completely washed up. 

 

Bledsoe in 2004 had 20 TD's against 21 Turnovers (16 INT's plus 5 fumbles lost, Bledsoe had no TD's rushing.) Josh had 29 TD's (20 passing 9 rushing) against 13 Turnovers (9 INT's plus 4 fumbles.) Josh also had 3700 yards overall to Bledsoe's 2900. Give me 2019 Josh all day. 

[Mikie2times]

42 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

That 2004 defense is in my opinion by far the best defense in the modern NFL to not make the playoffs. The 2004 defense was insane. Pat Williams and Sam Adams were beastly hippos that clogged the middle while Schobel was a dam fine speed rusher off the edge. Behind them was London and TKO two Pro-Bowl LB's. The secondary featured Nate and McGee as a quality pairing of corners and they also had Miloy and Vincent as one of the better safety pairings in the league. 

 

Comparing the 2004 to 2019 teams I would give the defenses a push, a possible slight edge to the 2004 on special teams but an edge on offense to the 2019 team. But while both teams are comparable talent wise. The coaching makes the huge difference. The 2004 defense had 5-6 legit pro-bowl talents and another 3-4 high quality starters on it and a few good depth pieces. The 2019 defense was 4-5 Probowl/high quality players and then just a bunch of starting caliber guys. But the 2019 defense rolled huge with depth and insane with how well they were coached. 

 

The 2019 team played much more disciplined and had more talent on offense and a better QB. Whereas the 2004 team was a team that rode a hot RB and a hot defense but would always be shaky in big moments. Outside of the Cleveland game the Bills rarely threw away games. Whereas I felt like in 2004 this team always had a knack to give away games. 

I would only argue the 2004 Special Teams was not a small advantage, it was massive. We had 5 special teams TD's, 3 by McGee who was lightning in a bottle, 1 by Clements who was a damn fine punt returner, and one by Jason Peters who made that incredibly athletic big man block punt. In addition one of the best if not the best punters in Bills history. Even Lindell was 24 of 28 that year despite a huge miss (Last game). Coaching, Bledsoe, that's where I see the breakdowns occurring. Bledsoe was just so prone to the fatal error (Last game). The 2019 team was so much more fundamentally sound. I don't think they were more talented. The 2004 squad had the the ability to straight take you to the shed. 2019 squad never could accomplish that. Again, difference in coaching, but also reflective of talent. The 2004 offense often went for the jugular and on defense tried to even prevent a one first down. Where the 2019 offense was more methodical and the defense was OK bending. I think your post was very solid. I don't even know if I would say the 2004 team was better and I'm the one that made the thread. I just have a soft spot for the easily dismissed Bills teams of the past. 1999 and 2004 would be at the top of the list.  

For those that want a rewind....

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by KzooMike

[Thurman#1]

I don't think too many people remember how terrific that defense was. 

 

One quick measure of that was that if you look at DVOA, they weren't just the best team in the league that year, they were about 50% better than the next-best team when using unweighted figures and around 70% better when using the weighted figures, weighted for strength of schedule.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/team-defense/2004

 

More FootballOutsiders has that 2004 defense as the 7th best ever!!!!!!!!!  They only look at teams from 1950 and onwards, but still.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2014/historical-dvoa-estimates

 

It's a real shame that that offense, and in particular Bledsoe, just weren't very good. The offense was listed as 21st when unweighted and 18th when weighted for schedule difficulty.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Doc Brown]

30 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

I don't think too many people remember how terrific that defense was. 

 

One quick measure of that was that if you look at DVOA, they weren't just the best team in the league that year, they were about 50% better than the next-best team when using unweighted figures and around 70% better when using the weighted figures, weighted for strength of schedule.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/team-defense/2004

 

More FootballOutsiders has that 2004 defense as the 7th best ever!!!!!!!!!  They only look at teams from 1950 and onwards, but still.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2014/historical-dvoa-estimates

 

It's a real shame that that offense, and in particular Bledsoe, just weren't very good. The offense was listed as 21st when unweighted and 18th when weighted for schedule difficulty.

 

 

Yup.  I didn't realize how good this defense was until this thread popped up.  What's weird is they finished seventh in points for which is quite the disparity.  Our defense was a turnover machine that year.  Another thing just looking at the scores that season we went 1-4 in games decided by five points or less.  Our two blowout losses were by the Pats which just reinforces that Mularkey wasn't a good coach.  We blew a lot of teams out but blew the end of 4th quarters in close games.  Oh, what could've been.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2020 is looking pretty dam good to me