Mr. WEO Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Doc said: Yeah, nowhere. Just Carolina, Jacksonville (would have been a mistake, but...), Houston, Cleveland, Baltimore, LA (twice) and maybe even Vegas. But outside of those places, nowhere... You've made that argument before---you're simply listing teams that have moved and expanded in the course of NFL history with zero context as to what was going on in the League throughout those decades or at the time of those moves. It makes no more sense now than it did when you said it before. Which on of the those towns was Ralph in communication with decades ago when he first talked about moving? Vegas and LA happened after he died in his 90's. Carolina and Jacksonville were expansion teams with owners and everything and both were created years later. Neither was a legitimate place for Ralph way back. Houston, Cleveland and Baltimore were moved because their cities would not build new stadiums.....but they would (a the same time) build one for Ralph? Or was he going to pay cash? LOL
Doc Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: You've made that argument before---you're simply listing teams that have moved and expanded in the course of NFL history with zero context as to what was going on in the League throughout those decades or at the time of those moves. It makes no more sense now than it did when you said it before. Which on of the those towns was Ralph in communication with decades ago when he first talked about moving? Vegas and LA happened after he died in his 90's. Carolina and Jacksonville were expansion teams with owners and everything and both were created years later. Neither was a legitimate place for Ralph way back. Houston, Cleveland and Baltimore were moved because their cities would not build new stadiums.....but they would (a the same time) build one for Ralph? Or was he going to pay cash? LOL Yes, LA and Vegas suddenly appeared as markets after Ralph died. Good one. Never mind that your "context" means little since it would be just as easy to move the Bills to a city that lost a team as expand into it. Or just move to Carolina or Jacksonville. But no, only new and other owners could go to those locations. Not Ralph. Just because you say so. LOL
Beast Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) The Bills/Ralph, could have picked up and moved to Toronto at any time during the last 20 plus years, going back to he suite sales in the late 90's, and the NFL would have probably applauded that move. I guarantee most owners look upon WNY as a red headed stepchild because the region is keeping the NFL from having another huge market team in Toronto. Edited June 28, 2020 by Beast
Doc Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Beast said: The Bills/Ralph, could have picked up and moved to Toronto at any time during the last 20 plus years, going back to he suite sales in the late 90's, and the NFL would have probably applauded that move. I guarantee most owners look upon WNY as a red headed stepchild because the region is keeping the NFL from having another huge market team in Toronto. Thanks, I keep forgetting to mention Toronto (there's also STL and Phoenix). As yup, that's what I've been saying. There were many opportunities to leave and the league would have not only welcomed it but also probably helped make the move easier by waiving the relo fee or paying for expenses. It seems pretty obvious. Edited June 28, 2020 by Doc 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Doc said: Yes, LA and Vegas suddenly appeared as markets after Ralph died. Good one. Never mind that your "context" means little since it would be just as easy to move the Bills to a city that lost a team as expand into it. Or just move to Carolina or Jacksonville. But no, only new and other owners could go to those locations. Not Ralph. Just because you say so. LOL Context means little? Ok then entertain us further by explaining how Ralph could have "moved" to Cleveland, Baltimore or Houston after their respective owners bolted for lack of new stadiums. Again, did he have some special charm that would force them. to build HIM a new stadium or was he going to pay for it? Simple question, doc. Not one team looked to move into any of those 3 locales. Neither did Ralph. The NFL was looking to expand, not watch more small market teams wife-swap cities. And you know for sure that Vegas was never a viable option for Ralph (or any NFL team) when he was moaning about moving. Why pretend you don't? The NFL was against a team in LV due to gambling and "the integrity of the game". So exactly what are you talking about? And Ralph moving to LA at any time....is just a laugh riot. That's even goofier than the Vegas thing. The Rams were still in St. Louis a year after Wilson died. The only way to even mention LA as a spot for Ralph to move would require you to claim that he would build a stadium out there, which of course is ridiculous. So why mention LA as well? So Cleveland, Baltimore, Houston, LA and Vegas weren't viable for Wilson.
oldmanfan Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 The Bills are not going anywhere because Kim grew up in WNY and wanted to buy them and keep them here. The Sabres for sure aren’t going anywhere because Terry’s first love is hockey and the league knows Buffalo is a great hockey town. The Pegulas have made commitments to the city with the Harbour Center and such. So quit arguing. 1
Doc Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Context means little? Ok then entertain us further by explaining how Ralph could have "moved" to Cleveland, Baltimore or Houston after their respective owners bolted for lack of new stadiums. Again, did he have some special charm that would force them. to build HIM a new stadium or was he going to pay for it? Simple question, doc. Not one team looked to move into any of those 3 locales. Neither did Ralph. The NFL was looking to expand, not watch more small market teams wife-swap cities. And you know for sure that Vegas was never a viable option for Ralph (or any NFL team) when he was moaning about moving. Why pretend you don't? The NFL was against a team in LV due to gambling and "the integrity of the game". So exactly what are you talking about? And Ralph moving to LA at any time....is just a laugh riot. That's even goofier than the Vegas thing. The Rams were still in St. Louis a year after Wilson died. The only way to even mention LA as a spot for Ralph to move would require you to claim that he would build a stadium out there, which of course is ridiculous. So why mention LA as well? So Cleveland, Baltimore, Houston, LA and Vegas weren't viable for Wilson. You realize that Cleveland, Baltimore and Houston built new stadiums for their new teams, right? The cities all own them. And where are you getting this claim that they wanted to only expand and not have an owner relocate? LA has been a market since the Raiders, and then later, the Rams moved out. And who said anything about needing a new stadium? The Coliseum was and is still there. Just make some renovations like Ralph wanted done at Rich Stadium... And unless I missed something, Vegas is still a gambling and "integrity" issue. It didn''t just recently prohibit gambling and become virtuous. And there's Toronto, STL (after the Cardinals moved) and Phoenix (to where the Cardinals moved). But yes, Ralph is the only owner in the history of the NFL who couldn't move a franchise, much less a franchise in the smallest non-community-owned market. It sounds even sillier when I type it.
Mr. WEO Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 58 minutes ago, Doc said: You realize that Cleveland, Baltimore and Houston built new stadiums for their new teams, right? The cities all own them. And where are you getting this claim that they wanted to only expand and not have an owner relocate? LA has been a market since the Raiders, and then later, the Rams moved out. And who said anything about needing a new stadium? The Coliseum was and is still there. Just make some renovations like Ralph wanted done at Rich Stadium... And unless I missed something, Vegas is still a gambling and "integrity" issue. It didn''t just recently prohibit gambling and become virtuous. And there's Toronto, STL (after the Cardinals moved) and Phoenix (to where the Cardinals moved). But yes, Ralph is the only owner in the history of the NFL who couldn't move a franchise, much less a franchise in the smallest non-community-owned market. It sounds even sillier when I type it. St Louis lost its team, bro. Toronto isn't an NFL town (Ralph's shameless cash grab proved this to you doc), not the least of which reasons is that no one is building a proper stadium there. Your lack of knowledge of history ("context") is, as usual, harming you. Ralph agitated for a new stadium in 1973 and got one. Therefore he had no need to thereafter pretend he was going to "move the team", until 1998 when he wanted the luxury box upgrades. He got those too. Irsay moved the Colts in 1984...9 years into the new "Ralph" stadium. Obviously no need to "move" to Baltimore, who would wait 10 more years for a franchise after Modell moved to Baltimore. The Ravens were an expansion team. The Browns were as well. So there was zero point zero opportunity (or reason) for Ralph to be involved in any way whatsoever with either Baltimore or Cleveland as far as thebNFL was concerned (your bizarre claims not withstanding). The "Oilers" had already moved to Tennessee when Ralph made noise about the luxury boxes in 1998. Again, the NFL did not want to put a team in Vegas. You know this but, as usual, are pretending you don't in an attempt to paint yourself out of another corner. The Coliseum is a dump that teams moved OUT of.
Doc Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: St Louis lost its team, bro. Toronto isn't an NFL town (Ralph's shameless cash grab proved this to you doc), not the least of which reasons is that no one is building a proper stadium there. Your lack of knowledge of history ("context") is, as usual, harming you. Ralph agitated for a new stadium in 1973 and got one. Therefore he had no need to thereafter pretend he was going to "move the team", until 1998 when he wanted the luxury box upgrades. He got those too. Irsay moved the Colts in 1984...9 years into the new "Ralph" stadium. Obviously no need to "move" to Baltimore, who would wait 10 more years for a franchise after Modell moved to Baltimore. The Ravens were an expansion team. The Browns were as well. So there was zero point zero opportunity (or reason) for Ralph to be involved in any way whatsoever with either Baltimore or Cleveland as far as thebNFL was concerned (your bizarre claims not withstanding). The "Oilers" had already moved to Tennessee when Ralph made noise about the luxury boxes in 1998. Again, the NFL did not want to put a team in Vegas. You know this but, as usual, are pretending you don't in an attempt to paint yourself out of another corner. The Coliseum is a dump that teams moved OUT of. Yes, many cities lost their teams, bro, which made them prime candidates to get a replacement team either through expansion or relocation. As you unwittingly admitted, the Cleveland Browns relocated to Baltimore to replace the team that relocated to Indianapolis, so your claim that these needed to be expansion teams only is false. And then there were the expansion cities, which again could just as easily have been a relocated team. That means every city, including LA (remove LV if it means that much to you) was open for Ralph. As for your claim that the only time Ralph could have moved was circa 1998, why is that? Because he publicly complained and because leases are unbreakable? LOL! He could have never said anything, up and moved the team and broken the lease like other owners have done...like the aforementioned Irsay. And hate to break it to you, but every owner who has moved or gotten a new stadium has done it for a "shameless cash grab" and "agitating for a new stadium." None of them were losing money in their old digs and they simply wanted to make more. But to you it was just Ralph. Which says it all. The bottom line is that Ralph never moved the team because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't. He voted against every team move. If the Sabres were to be sold, the new owner could easily move the team because just when you think there isn't a new market...suddenly there is. Belabor it if you want but there's nothing more to say on the subject. Edited June 29, 2020 by Doc
plenzmd1 Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 (edited) https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/29/chesapeake-energy-fracking-pioneer-files-for-bankruptcy-owing-9bn Just of note, more debt than Exxon and Chevron combined. Edited June 29, 2020 by plenzmd1
Doc Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/29/chesapeake-energy-fracking-pioneer-files-for-bankruptcy-owing-9bn Just of note, more debt than Exxon and Chevron combined. Ouch.
Mr. WEO Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 10 hours ago, Doc said: Yes, many cities lost their teams, bro, which made them prime candidates to get a replacement team either through expansion or relocation. As you unwittingly admitted, the Cleveland Browns relocated to Baltimore to replace the team that relocated to Indianapolis, so your claim that these needed to be expansion teams only is false. And then there were the expansion cities, which again could just as easily have been a relocated team. That means every city, including LA (remove LV if it means that much to you) was open for Ralph. As for your claim that the only time Ralph could have moved was circa 1998, why is that? Because he publicly complained and because leases are unbreakable? LOL! He could have never said anything, up and moved the team and broken the lease like other owners have done...like the aforementioned Irsay. And hate to break it to you, but every owner who has moved or gotten a new stadium has done it for a "shameless cash grab" and "agitating for a new stadium." None of them were losing money in their old digs and they simply wanted to make more. But to you it was just Ralph. Which says it all. The bottom line is that Ralph never moved the team because he didn't want to, not because he couldn't. He voted against every team move. If the Sabres were to be sold, the new owner could easily move the team because just when you think there isn't a new market...suddenly there is. Belabor it if you want but there's nothing more to say on the subject. Let's take these one at a time: 1). "unwittingly admitted"? The "new" Browns were announced as an expansion team in 1998--when Ralph was agitating for upgrades to the stadium. So clearly Cleveland was not a potential spot for Wilson to move to, besides the fact that it would make zero sense for him to move there. LA was a nonstarter for the same reason that no other owner wanted to go there for years--the stadium is a dump and the fans apathetic. Attendance sucked so the games were routinely blacked out. That too would have been senseless for Ralph. Unlike Kroenke, Wilson was never going to spring for a stadium. But hey, "he could have moved there!", right? 2). Irsay may have moved the team "in the middle of the night", but he had been very publicly talking about moving in 1977. He was openly courting other cities at that time. He moved in 1984. He took off and with the team that night because the Maryland Senate passed a law that would allow the city of Baltimore to seize the team by eminent domain 2 days prior. So, stating he "up and moved the team" and "broke the lease" betrays your lack of depth of knowledge regarding that move, to be kind... 3). Hate to break it to me? LOL, I posted that obvious point upstream---owners squeeze the locals for a new or renovated stadium or they threaten to move if they don't get it. Yet now you say that Wilson could have moved the team AFTER Erie built Rich Stadium or AFTER Erie gave the Ralph it's upgrades? Why? If teams all move because of not getting the money for stadiums, and Ralph got that, why would he ever move? How many owners have, after getting a new or renovated stadium, "meh, I'm moving....somewhere...because I want to?". Like the overwhelming majority of his colleagues throughout his career, Ralph gets no credit for "not moving the team" when it made absolutely no sense to do so.
Mango Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/29/chesapeake-energy-fracking-pioneer-files-for-bankruptcy-owing-9bn Just of note, more debt than Exxon and Chevron combined. Chesapeake has been rough for years, especially since Aubrey Mclendon died/got charged. They have laid off something like 1000 employees over the last 5 years or so. This is not really new. And coming out of this with only 200 layoffs is actually pretty good for them these days. It was a shame, I have met Aubrey, he always came across as genuine and caring. His philanthropy towards the olympic training center is the reason it existed in OKC. Folks like Devon, Sandridge, OG&E, etc. didn't want to be left in the dust. But that is a different story.
GG Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 Putting this here as well. Further proof that PSE financial condition is a mess. Always bad news when you fire your top finance guy, but don't immediately name a replacement. Chuck LaMattina out as executive VP of finance at Pegula Sports and Entertainment
Mike in Horseheads Posted July 1, 2020 Posted July 1, 2020 Seriously this should be moved to OTW or...... PPP
inkman Posted July 5, 2020 Posted July 5, 2020 On 6/22/2020 at 1:46 PM, boater said: And sold Sabres = Sabres moving out of town. Just watch. But why?
Mr. WEO Posted July 5, 2020 Posted July 5, 2020 They are reorganizing with a “goal of becoming viable”.. yikes. ....and reported by “Trainwreck Sports“ lol
Recommended Posts