K-9 Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 39 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So I'm fishing for ways to say this without sounding finger pointy, and not knowing you I may need to ask for your help here. Overall I think "guilt" is kind of a useless emotion. If someone does something that they know, or reasonably should know, is high-risk of putting innocent people at harm - like drinking and driving - their feelings of guilt won't help or heal anyone they injured or killed in an accident while under the influence. Won't even help someone they put a damn good scare into. The only way that "guilt" is constructive, is if it would motivate the person never to do that high-risk thing again. (As I understand it though, 12-step and other programs find guilt can have the paradoxical effect with substance abuse, someone doesn't want to think about what they've done continues to abuse to "dulls the pain" of the guilt). So instead of guilt, can we talk about responsibility? I had an illuminating conversation when I was 16, with my alumna interviewer for Brown University who was a black medical student at UB at the time. I pretty much said what you said but on behalf of my grandparents, that they felt they were good people who had never treated someone differently on account of race and had in fact donated to the NAACP during the civil rights era, that they were the children of immigrants themselves and they and their parents had known discrimination, and that they felt hurt by being painted as "part of the problem". I think that's kind of what you're saying, perhaps? And she pointed out that there are two kinds of responsibility - responsibility by commission, and responsibility by omission. Let's stipulate it as true that you, @OldTimeAFLGuy, have never yourself done a single racially biased action. If a teacher, never given less "benefit of doubt" or graded a black student differently. If a manager, never made a hiring decision, or a personnel evaluation, that was influenced by race. No "microaggressions" - always treat POC you encounter in daily life with the same courtesy you extend to everyone else and not react differently to small discourtesies or problems caused by a black child vs a white child You aren't responsible by any acts of commission. Yay you! Good man! (I say this in all seriousness) At the same time, around us there is this system where in many ways black people still do not get an even break. School systems, health care and access to health care, and voting/access to voting are my personal "big 3". And like it or not, you and I and our kids are beneficiaries of that system. Then the question fairly becomes, what have I done, and what have you done, or what are we willing to do, to "be a part of the solution" to address inequities, instead of passively benefiting and having our children benefit from them? (Note I am not talking about "affirmative action" here which I view as too little, too late). Because if you aren't willing to invest at least a small regular amount of time and money in looking at what's around you and whether there's something a "reasonable man" could perceive as unfair and in need of being fixed, then it may be reasonable to suggest you (and I) have "responsibility by omission". Outstanding. I take omission a step further in that we are actually complicit when we don’t take a stand. I don’t know how many times I’ve let racial comments or jokes made by friends or relatives pass without comment, for example. Or in not joining with minority voices in demanding fair and equal access to vote. Not taking a stand makes us complicit in the act denying people their equality. It’s just not enough to wish people well in their pursuit. We have to get on board in a very real, meaningful, and impactful way when it comes to seeing the promise of America fulfilled for all. 2 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 11:27 AM, BringBackFergy said: Are you referring to my "visitor"?? She has made several appearances outside my front door (which is glass) and she's wearing a mask. She thinks we can understand what she is saying as she stands there talking to my staff through a glass door with traffic passing in the background. #1) We can't read lips, and #2) it's twice as hard to read lips when she's wearing a mask. Oh geez, now I'm seeing it. We had to go through months of lockdowns, online college, closures, cancellations .....ALL JUST BECAUSE FERG COULDN'T "NUT UP" TO LOCK OUT HIS VISITOR WITHOUT A MAJOR PANDEMIC. Thanks, Ferg. Thanks a bunch. 1
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Thanks, Ferg. Thanks a bunch. Put a mask on, stand outside his office window, and tell him that. It will drive him batty. (er) 1
The Dean Posted June 20, 2020 Posted June 20, 2020 59 minutes ago, K-9 said: Outstanding. I take omission a step further in that we are actually complicit when we don’t take a stand. I don’t know how many times I’ve let racial comments or jokes made by friends or relatives pass without comment, for example. Or in not joining with minority voices in demanding fair and equal access to vote. Not taking a stand makes us complicit in the act denying people their equality. It’s just not enough to wish people well in their pursuit. We have to get on board in a very real, meaningful, and impactful way when it comes to seeing the promise of America fulfilled for all. Burke said it very well: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” 3 1
Cripple Creek Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 On 6/18/2020 at 1:52 PM, Irv said: Do you feel like you can speak honestly about your heartfelt thoughts on race relations without retribution at your workplace or elsewhere? Most definitely not.
The Dean Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Cripple Creek said: Most definitely not. Just curious, the OP asks if you can honestly speak about race in the workplace or elsewhere. It seems like many here are focused on the workplace, which is understandable. But isn't there ANYWHERE you feel you can have an honest conversation?
FireChans Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 10:25 PM, The Dean said: Have. Do. Will continue. Don't get me wrong. I avoid controversial topics with clients, strangers in bars, casual acquaintances, etc. But with people (even in a workplace setting if deemed appropriate) honestly looking for a serious conversation, then I let them know what I think. I even try to dissuade my current clients from talking any sort of politics, let alone race relations, but when pushed I tell them what I think---in the most respectful manner I can--most of the time. But I've been having blunt conversations about race with friends, family and anyone else who will listen for many years. It's appalling it has to have come to this for some to even try to understand. It’s only a matter of time before you are #cancelled
The Dean Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, FireChans said: It’s only a matter of time before you are #cancelled Not a tweeter so have zero idea what the #cancelled hash tag means. But if it means I will die, then yes, I most certainly will.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) On 6/20/2020 at 12:01 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said: So I'm fishing for ways to say this without sounding finger pointy, and not knowing you I may need to ask for your help here. Overall I think "guilt" is kind of a useless emotion. If someone does something that they know, or reasonably should know, is high-risk of putting innocent people at harm - like drinking and driving - their feelings of guilt won't help or heal anyone they injured or killed in an accident while under the influence. Won't even help someone they put a damn good scare into. The only way that "guilt" is constructive, is if it would motivate the person never to do that high-risk thing again. (As I understand it though, 12-step and other programs find guilt can have the paradoxical effect with substance abuse, someone doesn't want to think about what they've done continues to abuse to "dulls the pain" of the guilt). So instead of guilt, can we talk about responsibility? I had an illuminating conversation when I was 16, with my alumna interviewer for Brown University who was a black medical student at UB at the time. I pretty much said what you said but on behalf of my grandparents, that they felt they were good people who had never treated someone differently on account of race and had in fact donated to the NAACP during the civil rights era, that they were the children of immigrants themselves and they and their parents had known discrimination, and that they felt hurt by being painted as "part of the problem". I think that's kind of what you're saying, perhaps? And she pointed out that there are two kinds of responsibility - responsibility by commission, and responsibility by omission. Let's stipulate it as true that you, @OldTimeAFLGuy, have never yourself done a single racially biased action. If a teacher, never given less "benefit of doubt" or graded a black student differently. If a manager, never made a hiring decision, or a personnel evaluation, that was influenced by race. No "microaggressions" - always treat POC you encounter in daily life with the same courtesy you extend to everyone else and not react differently to small discourtesies or problems caused by a black child vs a white child You aren't responsible by any acts of commission. Yay you! Good man! (I say this in all seriousness) At the same time, around us there is this system where in many ways black people still do not get an even break. School systems, health care and access to health care, and voting/access to voting are my personal "big 3". And like it or not, you and I and our kids are beneficiaries of that system. Then the question fairly becomes, what have I done, and what have you done, or what are we willing to do, to "be a part of the solution" to address inequities, instead of passively benefiting and having our children benefit from them? (Note I am not talking about "affirmative action" here which I view as too little, too late). Because if you aren't willing to invest at least a small regular amount of time and money in looking at what's around you and whether there's something a "reasonable man" could perceive as unfair and in need of being fixed, then it may be reasonable to suggest you (and I) have "responsibility by omission". ...Cliff Notes version answer.......will continue to go about my ways of treating people, yes PEOPLE, regardless of race, creed, color, orientation , sexual preference et al in the same manner as I HOPE to be treated.....and way does ethnic racism get a pass with visual skin color racism predominate?...political capital?....I am of Italian heritage and when trying to relocate my family to the South, headhunters said, so you're one of those Eye-Talians"....racist?.....or how about my deceased uncle, a prominent high school football star who was initially denied acceptance into the University of Rochester because of his Italian heritage?...eventually accepted...or my late aunt in Maryland who was denied a job in Maryland education system unless she dropped the vowel from her last name?......she refused but eventually became THE leading Maryland State System Educator.....and her daughter is now the Maryland's State Assistant In Charge (#2)of Special Education....so we're all of Italian heritage despite being EYE-Talians.......so we're caucasian guilty by your standards.... Edited June 21, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy
GoBills808 Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...Cliff Notes version answer.......will continue to go about my ways of treating people, yes PEOPLE, regardless of race, creed, color, orientation , sexual preference et al in the same manner as I HOPE to be treated.....and way does ethnic racism get a pass with visual skin color racism predominate?...political capital?....I am of Italian heritage and when trying to relocate my family to the South, headhunters said, so you're one of those Eye-Talians"....racist?.....or how about my deceased uncle, a prominent high school football star who was initially denied acceptance into the University of Rochester because of his Italian heritage?...eventually accepted...or my late aunt in Maryland who was denied a job in Maryland education system unless she dropped the vowel from her last name?......she refused but eventually became THE leading Maryland State System Educator.....and her daughter is now the Maryland's State Assistant In Charge (#2)of Special Education....so we're all of Italian heritage despite being EYE-Talians.......so we're caucasian guilty by your standards.... The vast majority of immigrant populations in our country have faced discrimination to varying degrees, not to mention the indigenous peoples. But to try to compare the extent to which they have suffered from it is to miss the point, imo.
The Dean Posted June 21, 2020 Posted June 21, 2020 32 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: The vast majority of immigrant populations in our country have faced discrimination to varying degrees, not to mention the indigenous peoples. But to try to compare the extent to which they have suffered from it is to miss the point, imo. No doubt. The very fact that you CAN simply drop the vowel from your name and escape the bigotry suggests the bigotry ins't nearly as deep. Also, Italians, Irish, etc came here of their own volition (many legally, many illegally). As a rule, they still had contacts and support from their friends/family/business associates back in the old country. There was no slavery in their recent past and they were never disallowed from going to restaurants/using drinking fountains/restrooms/etc. The mafia, as bad as they were, actually helped many Italians lift themselves out of poverty and into the middle (lower-middle?) class. With that said, remembering the bigotry those in your family experienced is important. It SHOULD make one more empathetic to other groups who experience the social discrimination. I'm continually disappointed with those who know about the bigotry in their past fail to take up the cause for other groups who are currently still experiencing it. And BTW that applies to African Americans who don't support the rights of the LGBT community. 3 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted June 22, 2020 Posted June 22, 2020 23 hours ago, GoBills808 said: The vast majority of immigrant populations in our country have faced discrimination to varying degrees, not to mention the indigenous peoples. But to try to compare the extent to which they have suffered from it is to miss the point, imo. ...points taken and definitely respected.....but I do not think it is fair to minimize their struggles, many of which still exist.....weren't Asian-Americans targeted because of Covid-19?....what governmental funding has taken place for those victims of ethnic racism (other than WW II Japanese-Americans detained which was the correct thing to do as far as $$)?.....and old marketing ploy is that "the first impression is the lasting impression" which is visual.......from a race perspective, that would be skin color albeit black or brown..so with racism of color going back to the 60's, the Fed's reaction REGARDLESS OF PARTY is to throw tons of money at the problem but with abysmal results.......but the political capital again ON BOTH SIDES is, " we spent billions trying to help you"...it is woefully naive to think there is not political capital voting base wise to keep inner cities as "gated communities"....and adding BILLIONS more to solidify that vote........the strong, driven entrepreneurs find a way to escape based on their talents.....pro sports is an example but there are many more.....former Congressman and OU football star JJ Watts wrote an eloquent piece (see link below).....watched a riveting interview of two African-Americans who pointed a sharp finger at the Dems in lock step with Teacher Unions about squashing charter schools to help those African-American youngsters escape the failing blight of inner city schools..... so yet again, POLITICAL interference due to $$$ leads the suppression.....the debate is endless........and more money is NOT the solution.... JC Watts: After lockdown and George Floyd death, this still holds true – No one is nonessential By J.C. Watts | Fox News In the wake of George Floyd’s tragic death, streets that were empty just a few weeks ago suddenly filled with thousands of people. The contrast was striking, and I think it’s trying to teach us something. As COVID-19 spread, we were told to stay at home and practice social distancing. Public gatherings were canceled and get-togethers with family and friends went virtual. Most surprising for me, though, was how quickly the term “nonessential” became commonplace. If your job wasn’t considered essential, well then – in a sense – neither were you. The result? Millions of Americans lost their jobs. Houses of worship stood empty. Bustling communities became ghost towns. Then, Derek Chauvin kneeled on George Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes, ending his life. Just as TV footage of Bull Connor’s police dogs and fire hoses electrified our nation in 1963, the video of George Floyd’s death hit us all in the gut. And our response has revealed an important truth. No one is nonessential. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/after-lockdown-george-floyd-death-truth-no-one-nonessential-jc-watts
Bad Things Posted June 22, 2020 Posted June 22, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 5:52 AM, Irv said: Do you feel like you can speak honestly about your heartfelt thoughts on race relations without retribution at your workplace or elsewhere? Of course I can speak my mind honestly on race. We're all equal. Simple as that. That said, I live in a country where racism isn't nearly as prevalent as it is in America. I've been away from the US since 2005 and NYS since 1990. Sadly, the amount of racism that I've witnessed on my visits there have definitely increased. (Not only towards African Americans, but also towards ANY non-European immigrants and Native Americans.) I've put a couple old friends and family members on the spot about some of the stupid things they've said.
GoBills808 Posted June 22, 2020 Posted June 22, 2020 2 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...points taken and definitely respected.....but I do not think it is fair to minimize their struggles, many of which still exist.....weren't Asian-Americans targeted because of Covid-19?....what governmental funding has taken place for those victims of ethnic racism (other than WW II Japanese-Americans detained which was the correct thing to do as far as $$)?.....and old marketing ploy is that "the first impression is the lasting impression" which is visual.......from a race perspective, that would be skin color albeit black or brown..so with racism of color going back to the 60's, the Fed's reaction REGARDLESS OF PARTY is to throw tons of money at the problem but with abysmal results.......but the political capital again ON BOTH SIDES is, " we spent billions trying to help you"...it is woefully naive to think there is not political capital voting base wise to keep inner cities as "gated communities"....and adding BILLIONS more to solidify that vote........the strong, driven entrepreneurs find a way to escape based on their talents.....pro sports is an example but there are many more.....former Congressman and OU football star JJ Watts wrote an eloquent piece (see link below).....watched a riveting interview of two African-Americans who pointed a sharp finger at the Dems in lock step with Teacher Unions about squashing charter schools to help those African-American youngsters escape the failing blight of inner city schools..... so yet again, POLITICAL interference due to $$$ leads the suppression.....the debate is endless........and more money is NOT the solution.... JC Watts: After lockdown and George Floyd death, this still holds true – No one is nonessential By J.C. Watts | Fox News In the wake of George Floyd’s tragic death, streets that were empty just a few weeks ago suddenly filled with thousands of people. The contrast was striking, and I think it’s trying to teach us something. As COVID-19 spread, we were told to stay at home and practice social distancing. Public gatherings were canceled and get-togethers with family and friends went virtual. Most surprising for me, though, was how quickly the term “nonessential” became commonplace. If your job wasn’t considered essential, well then – in a sense – neither were you. The result? Millions of Americans lost their jobs. Houses of worship stood empty. Bustling communities became ghost towns. Then, Derek Chauvin kneeled on George Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes, ending his life. Just as TV footage of Bull Connor’s police dogs and fire hoses electrified our nation in 1963, the video of George Floyd’s death hit us all in the gut. And our response has revealed an important truth. No one is nonessential. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/after-lockdown-george-floyd-death-truth-no-one-nonessential-jc-watts Yes to your point that neither party has claim to the moral high ground re: concrete improvement of minority rights. Also agree and said initially that there are folk of all races and creeds (not to mention sexual orientation etc) that were/are marginalized, I just don't think trying to figure out who is more oppressed is worth much discussion because it clouds the issue and isn't really the point wrt civil rights.
eball Posted June 22, 2020 Posted June 22, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 5:30 PM, K-9 said: You can only have honest discussions about race with honest people. ...honest people who aren’t afraid to self-reflect and get past their defensiveness. Every time a white person says “but I haven’t done anything to black people” I just shake my head... 2
K-9 Posted June 22, 2020 Posted June 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, eball said: ...honest people who aren’t afraid to self-reflect and get past their defensiveness. Every time a white person says “but I haven’t done anything to black people” I just shake my head... Good point. People who don’t self reflect and get past their defensiveness aren’t/can’t being honest.
Keukasmallies Posted June 25, 2020 Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) On 6/18/2020 at 1:52 PM, Irv said: Do you feel like you can speak honestly about your heartfelt thoughts on race relations without retribution at your workplace or elsewhere? I do feel I can express my heartfelt thoughts on race relations, but I don't because I recently added race relations to politics and religion on my never-initiate-a-discussion list. I support preserving our history, warts and all, and celebrating the fact that we've evolved as a nation as we've grown to appreciate and value all people. So, equal right for ALL, but leave the statues alone, please. I mean, com'on, do we really tear down the George Washington bridge because he supported practices that were accepted when he was alive? Edited June 25, 2020 by Keukasmallies expressing heartfelt thoughts....
teef Posted June 25, 2020 Posted June 25, 2020 at work no. we don't do the politics, religion, etc talk at work. people don't come here for that...they want and easy in and out. at home and in my personal life, sure. my family has always been open about all topics. if anything, we tend to talk about relationships/sex the least. not sure why.
Recommended Posts