Do You Feel That You Can Speak Honestly About Race Relations

[Seasons1992]

11 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Are you referring to my "visitor"?? She has made several appearances outside my front door (which is glass) and she's wearing a mask.  She thinks we can understand what she is saying as she stands there talking to my staff through a glass door with traffic passing in the background.  #1) We can't read lips, and #2) it's twice as hard to read lips when she's wearing a mask.

 

I'm now satisfied with bringing you onboard in this thread. Thank you for the visual!

[Another Fan]

38 minutes ago, Jaraxxus said:

No. The only things I talk about with the people I work with are food, sports, and work.

 

Even sports sometimes I don’t bring it up...

 

My one co worker is a big Patriots fan.   Since I like and respect him otherwise it’s just not worth going there at work 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

35 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Are you referring to my "visitor"?? She has made several appearances outside my front door (which is glass) and she's wearing a mask.  She thinks we can understand what she is saying as she stands there talking to my staff through a glass door with traffic passing in the background.  #1) We can't read lips, and #2) it's twice as hard to read lips when she's wearing a mask.

Is everyone and everything there in black and white, like old photographs?  The more I hear about this town, it has to be in 'The Twilight Zone'.

[BringBackFergy]

9 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Is everyone and everything there in black and white, like old photographs?  The more I hear about this town, it has to be in 'The Twilight Zone'.

More like “Back to the Future” (Save the clocktower!! Save the clocktower!!)

[KD in CA]

1 hour ago, Mark Vader said:

California

 

Oh come on....it's entirely appropriate to have and discuss your thoughts in California.   

 

Obviously they need to be the approved thoughts....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 6/18/2020 at 12:52 PM, Irv said:

Do you feel like you can speak honestly about your heartfelt thoughts on race relations without retribution at your workplace or elsewhere? 

 

I don't feel I can speak honestly about my heartfelt thoughts without retribution anywhere I want to maintain cordial long-term relationships.  That would include Sunday BBQ with the Fam.  Especially Sunday BBQ with the fam!  Or the Neighbors! 

 

"How about them Blues?" (that works)

 

I channel my late Grandfather on this one.  He had a sign nailed up over his workbench: "Even a Fish wouldn't get into trouble if it Kept Its Mouth Shut!"

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...my first question is why should ALL Caucasians feel guilt pains?......what exactly did us current crop do?.....are we responsible for the nation's history going back hundreds of years?....reparations?...what CURRENT or RECENT Caucasians enslaved RECENT black people?......care to start by telling me TODAY as to actually what the hell I'm guilty of??........

[WhoTom]

53 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...my first question is why should ALL Caucasians feel guilt pains?......what exactly did us current crop do?.....are we responsible for the nation's history going back hundreds of years?....reparations?...what CURRENT or RECENT Caucasians enslaved RECENT black people?......care to start by telling me TODAY as to actually what the hell I'm guilty of??........

 

You don't need to feel guilty, but it wouldn't hurt to acknowledge that while we all face hardships in life, for some of us, at least, our skin color isn't one of them.

 

 

[K-9]

You can only have honest discussions about race with honest people. 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

1. NEVER talk religion or politics.

2. Follow James 2:18 - show it by what you do, not what you say.

[GoBills808]

sure

[Success]

When the Starbucks guy said that he didn't see color, and I saw people take him to task for it, I realized that I should just keep my mouth shut until someone writes the textbook on exactly what to say, how to say it & when it's proper to be said.

 

[bdutton]

No.

[WotAGuy]

I wear my “All Lives Matter” t-shirt down at the watermelon factory and haven’t had a problem yet. 

[The Dean]

Have. Do. Will continue.

 

Don't get me wrong. I avoid controversial topics with clients, strangers in bars, casual acquaintances, etc. But with people (even in a workplace setting if deemed appropriate) honestly looking for a serious conversation, then I let them know what I think. I even try to dissuade my current clients from talking any sort of politics, let alone race relations, but when pushed I tell them what I think---in the most respectful manner I can--most of the time.

 

But  I've been having blunt conversations about race with friends, family and anyone else who will listen for many years. It's appalling it has to have come to this for some to even try to understand.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by The Dean

[Niagara Bill]

If you want to improve/fix/educate discussion is necessary. The forum at work is important, is it training sessions for example.

The type of discussion is also important. If you just want to express your view no matter which side of the issue you are on then you are part of the problem. If you want to learn, solve, enhance relationships then 2 ears one mouth is appropriate use of your anatomy, If you truly want to move forward.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...my first question is why should ALL Caucasians feel guilt pains?......what exactly did us current crop do?.....are we responsible for the nation's history going back hundreds of years?....reparations?...what CURRENT or RECENT Caucasians enslaved RECENT black people?......care to start by telling me TODAY as to actually what the hell I'm guilty of??........

so on the heartfelt convos ? that would be “no”, then?

 

I’m not an advocate of guilt feelings  for general societal failings, non-productive.  
 

But heartfelt conversations do got to start with understanding where people are coming from - what they see as continued problems that give them an unequal playing field.

 

Otherwise they’re kinda heartfelt monologues

[Gray Beard]

I retired a year ago, and I maintain contact with a few of my co-workers.  There were a several who had similar views with me, and we would solve all the world’s problems with our conversations.  As I was approaching retirement, we spent way too much time with those conversations. 
 

There were a few who were too far to the left, and a few more who were too far to the right compared to me.  I don’t like this left-right classification, since I can be liberal on things like health care and education, but pre-Trump conservative on things like state’s rights and a strong military.   
 

I would carefully converse with people who I suspected that I might not agree with in order to try and understand their views.  I can honestly say that I learned something from those conversations, but I don’t think they ever caused me to change my opinions significantly 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

so on the heartfelt convos ? that would be “no”, then?

 

I’m not an advocate of guilt feelings  for general societal failings, non-productive.  
 

But heartfelt conversations do got to start with understanding where people are coming from - what they see as continued problems that give them an unequal playing field.

 

Otherwise they’re kinda heartfelt monologues

 

 

 

certainly agree Hap......but I don't think it is fair for the predicate to be, "because I'm caucasian, I MUST be guilty in some way".......

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

certainly agree Hap......but I don't think it is fair for the predicate to be, "because I'm caucasian, I MUST be guilty in some way".......

 

So I'm fishing for ways to say this without sounding finger pointy, and not knowing you I may need to ask for your help here.
 

Overall I think "guilt" is kind of a useless emotion.    If someone does something that they know, or reasonably should know, is high-risk of putting innocent people at harm - like drinking and driving - their feelings of guilt won't help or heal anyone they injured or killed in an accident while under the influence.  Won't even help someone they put a damn good scare into.  The only way that "guilt" is constructive, is if it would motivate the person never to do that high-risk thing again.  (As I understand it though, 12-step and other programs find guilt can have the paradoxical effect with substance abuse, someone doesn't want to think about what they've done continues to abuse to "dulls the pain" of the guilt).

 

So instead of guilt, can we talk about responsibility?

I had an illuminating conversation when I was 16, with my alumna interviewer for Brown University who was a black medical student at UB at the time.  I pretty much said what you said but on behalf of my grandparents, that they felt they were good people who had never treated someone differently on account of race and had in fact donated to the NAACP during the civil rights era, that they were the children of immigrants themselves and they and their parents had known discrimination, and that they felt hurt by being painted as "part of the problem".    I think that's kind of what you're saying, perhaps?

And she pointed out that there are two kinds of responsibility - responsibility by commission, and responsibility by omission.  Let's stipulate it as true that you, @OldTimeAFLGuy, have never yourself done a single racially biased action.  If a teacher, never given less "benefit of doubt" or graded a black student differently.  If a manager, never made a hiring decision, or a personnel evaluation, that was influenced by race.  No "microaggressions" - always treat POC you encounter in daily life with the same courtesy you extend to everyone else and not react differently to small discourtesies or problems caused by a black child vs a white child  You aren't responsible by any acts of commission.  Yay you!  Good man! (I say this in all seriousness)

 

At the same time, around us there is this system where in many ways black people still do not get an even break.  School systems, health care and access to health care, and voting/access to voting are my personal "big 3".  And like it or not, you and I and our kids are beneficiaries of that system.  Then the question fairly becomes, what have I done, and what have you done, or what are we willing to do, to "be a part of the solution" to address inequities, instead of passively benefiting and having our children benefit from them?  (Note I am not talking about "affirmative action" here which I view as too little, too late).  

Because if you aren't willing to invest at least a small regular amount of time and money in looking at what's around you and whether there's something a "reasonable man" could perceive as unfair and in need of being fixed, then it may be reasonable to suggest you (and I) have "responsibility by omission".