Botts Canned!

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Maybe it’s more semantical? Obviously they aren’t generating the revenue that they needed to. They are in no way “forced” to make any cuts whatsoever. If they kicked in a fraction of a fraction of their own assets they could operate at the same level. They’d never notice the difference.
 

This isn’t a small business situation. If the sandwich shop at the corner isn’t ringing $1000 a day they can’t afford to pay staff, bills, etc... If the Pegula’s and the Sabres miss 13 games, 6 of which are home, that lost revenue isn’t going to crush their business. It’s a PR spin used to get the public to empathize. It’s a BS excuse. We aren’t talking about multi-millionaires.
 

We are talking about people that stroked a $1.4B check for the Bills (who buy the way are still spitting out cash). If my math is right the NFL teams last year each made $50m-$55m PROFIT from the TV deal alone. 

 

 

We are talking past one another. My point is simply as an individual stand alone entity the Sabres enterprise from a business standpoint is flailing. You make the point that they should kick in their own money to augment the business generated money. The problem with that approach is all their other ventures (other than the Bills) are in a flat-line status i.e. near death. 

 

You were in and around the business of sports. It's a business with cash/flow realities. Right now the in and out cash don't match. And because of the business environment affected by the pandemic issue and the implications for attendance there is going to be even more financial stress within the organization. 

[BillsFan4]

I posted this over in the Sabres thread. 2 different sources now reporting the Sabres were losing upwards of $30 million a year (Tim Graham’s sources quoted up to $60M when including PSE).

 

https://www.tsn.ca/talent/buffalo-sabres-decide-to-start-over-once-again-1.1486570

 

https://theathletic.com/1758235/2020/04/20/as-pegulas-face-business-challenges-employees-describe-a-toxic-culture-at-pse/

 

Crazy how poorly managed have they been. 

 

 

————————————————

 

 

Elliotte Friedman thinks there are big changes coming to the NHL.

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by BillsFan4

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

We are talking past one another. My point is simply as an individual stand alone entity the Sabres enterprise from a business standpoint is flailing. You make the point that they should kick in their own money to augment the business generated money. The problem with that approach is all their other ventures (other than the Bills) are in a flat-line status i.e. near death. 

 

You were in and around the business of sports. It's a business with cash/flow realities. Right now the in and out cash don't match. And because of the business environment affected by the pandemic issue and the implications for attendance there is going to be even more financial stress within the organization. 

Maybe we are. We are in agreement that the cash flow is down across the board (except the Bills). I’m simply suggesting that the cash flow issues are being overstated. You aren’t seeing other organizations skinning it to the bone. I don’t believe that’s the reason for these decisions. If they are that lean they shouldn’t own the team.

 

The reason that i brought the Bills into the equation is that their profits from the TV contract alone are more than enough to offset all other losses. They obviously don’t have to dump money into a losing entity. I’m simply saying that they could. 

9 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

I posted this over in the Sabres thread. 2 different sources now reporting the Sabres were losing upwards of $30 million a year (Tim Graham’s sources quoted up to $60M when including PSE).

 

https://www.tsn.ca/talent/buffalo-sabres-decide-to-start-over-once-again-1.1486570

 

https://theathletic.com/1758235/2020/04/20/as-pegulas-face-business-challenges-employees-describe-a-toxic-culture-at-pse/

 

Crazy how poorly managed have they been. 

That is pretty inept. Buying minor league franchises is a terrible investment. You just hand money away. The Sabres, in theory, should operate in the black. They aren’t going to be a huge revenue generator but it should be a positive.
 

They need to get a president in there ASAP. Too bad RB was banging his employees. He’s absolutely capable of fixing this problem. There are tons of others as well. Kim Pegula isn’t one.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[Mike in Horseheads]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They need to get a president in there ASAP. Too bad RB was banging his employees. He’s absolutely capable of fixing this problem. There are tons of others as well. Kim Pegula isn’t one.

They had Lafontaine for three months and he was gone. (I wish the whole story would come out about that.) Looking back should have known then trouble was brewing.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

They had Lafontaine for three months and he was gone. (I wish the whole story would come out about that.) Looking back should have known then trouble was brewing.

I’ve heard quite a bit of it from the inside. Long story short LaFontaine believed that everyone they had was incompetent (Ted Black & company). He wanted house cleaning and authority. 

[May Day 10]

4 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

They had Lafontaine for three months and he was gone. (I wish the whole story would come out about that.) Looking back should have known then trouble was brewing.

 

LaFontaine left due to bumping heads with Kim Pegula and getting overridden on silly things.  The one that broke the camel's back was her allowing Ryan Miller's wife to go on the "parents trip' after he told the Millers that it was a parent's trip, no wives.  

 

IMO, they need a couple team presidents at this point.  One for the business/branding side and one for the hockey ops side.  Would be a great opportunity to start fresh right now because they culled so many people and they may have like 6 months until the season starts.  

 

 

But they will waste it pretending they know what they are doing

Edited June 17, 2020 by May Day 10

[Mike in Horseheads]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ve heard quite a bit of it from the inside. Long story short LaFontaine believed that everyone they had was incompetent (Ted Black & company). He wanted house cleaning and authority. 

And here we are. He was right.

...That bridge has burned but now would be the perfect time for him since thats what they just did.

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

LaFontaine left due to bumping heads with Kim Pegula and getting overridden on silly things.  The one that broke the camel's back was her allowing Ryan Miller's wife to go on the "parents trip' after he told the Millers that it was a parent's trip, no wives.  

 

IMO, they need a couple team presidents at this point.  One for the business/branding side and one for the hockey ops side.  Would be a great opportunity to start fresh right now because they culled so many people and they may have like 6 months until the season starts.  

 

 

But they will waste it pretending they know what they are doing

FWIW, Kim is DESPISED by the old-timers in and around the Sabres. At least that’s how I’ve heard it. It’s been that way since LaFontaine.

[GG]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Maybe it’s more semantical? Obviously they aren’t generating the revenue that they needed to. They are in no way “forced” to make any cuts whatsoever. If they kicked in a fraction of a fraction of their own assets they could operate at the same level. They’d never notice the difference.
 

This isn’t a small business situation. If the sandwich shop at the corner isn’t ringing $1000 a day they can’t afford to pay staff, bills, etc... If the Pegula’s and the Sabres miss 13 games, 6 of which are home, that lost revenue isn’t going to crush their business. It’s a PR spin used to get the public to empathize. It’s a BS excuse. We aren’t talking about multi-millionaires.
 

We are talking about people that stroked a $1.4B check for the Bills (who buy the way are still spitting out cash). If my math is right the NFL teams last year each made $50m-$55m PROFIT from the TV deal alone. 

 

 

Profits dropping 92% is quite different than about 15% of your home games being cancelled. This holds especially true when the player salaries go away with the unplayed games. I’m fairly certain that is the model in the NHL as it is in other sports. So you lose the revenue associated with those games but also your largest expense associated with them. It’s not apples to apples.

 

You are totally ignoring the timing of the cash inflows & outflows and the impact of the overall PSE enterprise.  This is not only about the hockey operations.   The lockdown timing could not have been worse for their collection of properties. AFAIK, they are generating almost zero revenues because oil & gas is in the tank, no sports, no travel and no concerts.  Yet, the lights still need to be kept on at Keybank, Adpro, Harborside and Nashville and they need to spend a lot more to get the facilities ready for the NFL season under the virus protocols.  They're also missing out on the NFL ticket sales that would have been rolling in right now and the NFL TV payments don't kick in until September.  Had they known all this would be happening, I'm sure they would have planned better.

 

This is a classic working capital squeeze.  I wouldn't doubt they brought in consultants who are advising them on fixing their cost structure.  Sabres are just the latest stop in their efforts to reign the cash.   

 

It's also indicative of the scattershot approach they've taken to build their non Oil&Gas business.  They run the business more as a collection of toys with very poor financial decisions and dubious management hires.  It works "fine" when you have an unlimited checkbook from the gas wells.   No so much in other times.  It reminds me of the flights of fancy Paul Allen used to have in his dealings, because he was always backstopped by the Bank of Bill Gates.   Eventually he learned the hard way to run businesses properly.

 

 

[billsfan_34]

The Sabres are probably the biggest cluster in all of sports, and all they can come up with is canning Botts? Sure, lets bring up Adams who has been part of the losing culture. This is all on the Pegulas.

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The firing of Botterill was not a hockey decision. It was a financial decision. If you recall he was retained to finish the last year of his contract. The reason why he was let go was because he was not receptive to the owners' plan to dramatically strip the staffing in the organization in order to save money. As you well know the economics of football are different from the more challenging economics of hockey. In football it is nearly impossible to lose money. Even poorly managed football franchises make money. That's not the case in hockey. The Sabres were hemorrhaging money prior to the pandemic and were facing a financial meltdown during the pandemic that will be following the sport into the next season.

 

How the Pegulas have responded to this current precarious economic environment is the same way other industries such as the hotel, hospitality, airlines, retail etc have responded. The strategy is to resort to austerity for the sake of survival and viability for tomorrow.   

The initial part of your post, although possible, is speculation, not established fact.  Botts more than earned his firing on hockey alone.  His tenure included zero developed players.  None.  Maybe Goaloffson.  He also oversaw regression of several.  

 

I take no joy in his firing and it was abrupt based on recent statements.  With that said, the departure of Pilut was also abrupt and there is no excuse for it happening.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but it is possible that you are.  

 

The new GM cannot possibly be worse than the last two.  If he drives to the arena tomorrow, pours accelerants thruoughout and lights it on fire he will have caught up with Murray and Botts.  He has a difficult task with the empty roster Botts has left behind and what will certainly be a strange season for all post COVID.  Keep Eichel in the fold, get through 20-21 alive and go from there.  If Botts stayed it would be no better than that and probably worse.

[Alaska Darin]

The playoffs are where NHL teams make money.  The players don't get their salaries for playoff games, so they are incredibly profitable for the owners.  Guess what not making the playoffs means?

 

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

The playoffs are where NHL teams make money.  The players don't get their salaries for playoff games, so they are incredibly profitable for the owners.  Guess what not making the playoffs means?

 

The pandemic era has a major influence on the revenue lost from the this year's playoff system because the games won't be played in front of crowds. At least with the staging of the playoffs the league will able to recoup some TV money. 

 

I'm a Sabre hockey fan. This team didn't deserve to make the playoffs. If they franchise want's to qualify for the next playoffs they need to make it an imperative to upgrade the roster. 

[Delete This Account]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:20 AM, plenzmd1 said:

and , maybe the heat from the @john wawrow interview dies down a bit now...placate the masses

 

it would have been easy to think so, but the mixed messages provided in their explanation of why they made the move, and the severe cuts that followed doesn't exactly raise confidence in how this team is being operated, and whether the focus is purely on winning.

 

jw

 

[May Day 10]

18 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

 

it would have been easy to think so, but the mixed messages provided in their explanation of why they made the move, and the severe cuts that followed doesn't exactly raise confidence in how this team is being operated, and whether the focus is purely on winning.

 

jw

 

 

 

I agree so much.  It is making the fans distraught. 

 

At least the Bills always muddied the waters and would pretend they were trying to get better in the day and age of Levy as GM, Brandon, Nix, etc...  there would always be at least 50% of fans who would defend the moves.  Through the thick of the drought, the Bills weren't nearly as bad as the Sabres are compared to the rest of the league.  

 

The Pegulas' signaling is awful and I cannot even find any solid ground to talk myself into optimism.  The fact that they sit there and say that they need to be heard and more control is chilling.  They said similar things when firing Murray and are now doubling down on that.  If soft-willed (publicly) Jason Botterill isnt malleable enough for them, I shudder thinking about what is next.  

Why do they keep going through these painful votes of confidence, only to do a complete and random-seeming about-face soon after?  Happened with Botterill, Murray/Bylsma, kind of with Housley (team falling off a cliff made it nearly impossible to keep him), Whaley (which led to the embarrassing "privy-gate"), and probably others.  Marrone quitting also comes to mind, and LaFontaine's departure.

 

I think it also puts a timer on the Bills before it blows up and there will be a divorce once McDermott and Beane have enough credibility to write their own ticket elsewhere.

 

 

 

Also, as far as this being cost moves.  Evidence points to that, such as dragging their feet on the hourly employees and firing long-time executives.

Edited June 19, 2020 by May Day 10

[Delete This Account]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:20 AM, plenzmd1 said:

and , maybe the heat from the @john wawrow interview dies down a bit now...placate the masses

 

catching up on this.

i'd think not. it's going to get worse.

 

jw

[Nextmanup]

15 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

catching up on this.

i'd think not. it's going to get worse.

 

jw

The "I'll dig another well if I want money" era is over!  That's finished now.

 

We are right back to where we used to be in the good old days, pinching pennies, cutting corners, and just trying to survive in the league.

Just as the Bills were doomed to futility for years as long as Wilson was alive and owning the team, I feel the Sabres are in the same place now with Kim Pegula playing "business executive." 

 

As long as the Pegulas treat their ownership of the Sabres as an amateur hobby, and not a professional business, things will not improve.

 

 

[billsfan_34]

On 6/17/2020 at 3:13 PM, billsfan_34 said:

The Sabres are probably the biggest cluster in all of sports, and all they can come up with is canning Botts? Sure, lets bring up Adams who has been part of the losing culture. This is all on the Pegulas.

I find it funny how people use that skeptical emotican- like is there a worse franchise right now over the past 10 years than the Sabres? 

[K-9]

16 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

The "I'll dig another well if I want money" era is over!  That's finished now.

 

We are right back to where we used to be in the good old days, pinching pennies, cutting corners, and just trying to survive in the league.

Just as the Bills were doomed to futility for years as long as Wilson was alive and owning the team, I feel the Sabres are in the same place now with Kim Pegula playing "business executive." 

 

As long as the Pegulas treat their ownership of the Sabres as an amateur hobby, and not a professional business, things will not improve.

 

 

Kim Pegula plays the same role for the Bills as she does for the Sabres and the Bills are a stable, viable franchise which seems to suggest the Sabres have issues far beyond Kim Pegula. 

[4merper4mer]

4 hours ago, K-9 said:

Kim Pegula plays the same role for the Bills as she does for the Sabres and the Bills are a stable, viable franchise which seems to suggest the Sabres have issues far beyond Kim Pegula. 

Tim Murray was the fire starter and Botts was simply a nice guy in way over his head.  There may be off ice issues and part of that may be with the Pegulas, I don't know.  

 

On the ice Tim Murray turn an embarrassment of riches into a straight up embarrassment.  He did so in record time.  Botts came in, correctly adopted a player development philosophy and managed to develop a grand total of zero NHL players......maybe one.