Texans and Cowboys players test positive

[GG]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

.

 

Appreciate if you could ratchet back the sensitivity on your trigger finger for shooting at “panic porn” whatever that means.

 

Panic porn refers to the penchant for those in charge to only accentuate the negative side the virus and its risks.  If people in charge were as even handed as you in providing the full set of information, we'd be having a different discussion.   You can attribute whatever reason you want to why there's a greater propensity for fear-mongering, despite emerging evidence that we have long passed the peak.

 

I also question the probabilities of the worst case outcomes for the league.   Those statistics assume that all the players get infected, which is inconsistent with how the virus has spread.   I also think the NFL's approach of allowing teams to stay in their facilities is much safer than what NBA & NHL are proposing for a single sports campus.   

 

In any event, Bundesliga is a good example to monitor.  When training resumed in May, there were a handful of staffers who were positive, but after remediation, the league has generally stayed clean.  No reason to think that NFL will suffer a much more severe outbreak than what's happening in Germany.

[Buddo]

33 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Panic porn refers to the penchant for those in charge to only accentuate the negative side the virus and its risks.  If people in charge were as even handed as you in providing the full set of information, we'd be having a different discussion.   You can attribute whatever reason you want to why there's a greater propensity for fear-mongering, despite emerging evidence that we have long passed the peak.

 

I also question the probabilities of the worst case outcomes for the league.   Those statistics assume that all the players get infected, which is inconsistent with how the virus has spread.   I also think the NFL's approach of allowing teams to stay in their facilities is much safer than what NBA & NHL are proposing for a single sports campus.   

 

In any event, Bundesliga is a good example to monitor.  When training resumed in May, there were a handful of staffers who were positive, but after remediation, the league has generally stayed clean.  No reason to think that NFL will suffer a much more severe outbreak than what's happening in Germany.

 

Soccer isn't anywhere near to being a good example to monitor. There are a lot less players available, for one thing. They are much more spread out naturally within the game.

 

You also have societal differences. In Germany, people generally are going to follow rules. In the US, not so much. Evidence for that would be how relatively successful the German lockdown has been, against many other countries, the US included.

 

A soccer team will probably have no more than 24 people involved in an actual game. The 11 starters, then 5 replacements, then about the same in coaches/managers/ fitness guys. (per team)

 

There are 53 guys in the playing roster on a Sunday. Probably a minimum of a dozen coaches, plus assorted trainers/waterboys. That's even before we get into the areas of contact, from within the game itself. Soccer doesn't have numerous instances of guys piling on after tackles, or in search of a fumbled football. It will be an awful lot easier for the virus to spread through an NFL roster, than it will be through a soccer team.

 

That isn't to say it will happen, just that it could, and sports generally aren't a low risk occupation, due to the amount of air expended when straining. They also aren't at the top of the risk tree either, but I think you could say that their risk factor would be fairly consistent.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, 123719bwiqrb said:

With this stance, how can you justify playing any sport?  Doesn't your stance feel a little conservative to you?

 

Maybe you can clarify what you see as my "stance"?  Because I don't know that I have a "stance" but I do know that I've seen people trying to "speed read" between my lines, which usually has more to do with what they think than what I think in my experience - not trying to say this applies to you.  But if my "stance" feels "conservative" to you when as far as I know I haven't come out and said what it is, it may.

 

Facts:  At this point, there have been enough patients to sort what the risk factors for serious outcome (hospitalization etc) seem to be.  Those risk factors statistically affect ~50% of the US population.

 

Basketball and soccer players are pretty much required to be mean, low-body-fat aerobic machines.  In contrast, around half of the players on each side of an NFL game play on the lines, and "Blocking Enough Daylight" matters, they're encouraged to "beef up".  Also, a good number of NFL players are closer to 30 than 20.  Not quite a fact, but an observation that's pretty straightforward to research independently.    Then there's the coaches, many of whom appear to spend far more time watching film than caring optimally for their own health (observation of NFL sidelines and interviews).

 

It's also the experience of every single physician I know or my friends know who are actively seeing covid-19 patients in hospital that they are seeing a wide spread of age groups come in seriously ill, including previously healthy people.  Yet if you flip on some channels, they talk as if this is only an "old person's disease".

 

What to do with that info, I don't know.  I want to see the NFL have a season.  I want to see colleges reopen, for that matter - I have "skin" in that game.  I see issues.  Just like college students, I don't think it's a realistic expectation that these guys will be staying home at night or socializing with a closed group and not out partying and clubbing, especially the younger guys.  And they tend to run in packs.  Some of them will get infected.  How will that be handled?

Those aren't questions for us to answer, but how the league and NFLPA handle them depends upon whether or not having a season will be a success.  If they expect these guys to wear N95 masks while they're pumping iron, it ain't gonna work too well (my prediction, from knowing what it feels like to wear a well-fit N95)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, GG said:

Panic porn refers to the penchant for those in charge to only accentuate the negative side the virus and its risks.  If people in charge were as even handed as you in providing the full set of information, we'd be having a different discussion.   You can attribute whatever reason you want to why there's a greater propensity for fear-mongering, despite emerging evidence that we have long passed the peak.

 

I would like to defer the peak/post peak question to the covid-19 discussion thread, rather than respond, if you can roll with that.  Thanks.  I accept that's what "panic porn" means to you and I appreciate the kind words, but I have been quite fervently attacked (not necessarily here) for distributing "panic porn" or "gloom and doom" myself when I think I'm providing even-handed information - so I'm not sure that's actually how everyone uses the term.

 

Quote

I also question the probabilities of the worst case outcomes for the league.   Those statistics assume that all the players get infected, which is inconsistent with how the virus has spread.   I also think the NFL's approach of allowing teams to stay in their facilities is much safer than what NBA & NHL are proposing for a single sports campus.   

 

In any event, Bundesliga is a good example to monitor.  When training resumed in May, there were a handful of staffers who were positive, but after remediation, the league has generally stayed clean.  No reason to think that NFL will suffer a much more severe outbreak than what's happening in Germany.

 

I don't know what the worst case outcomes are for the league  - no season?  curtailed season?  play a full season and have a body count?  How do you see it?

 

In any event, I don't think it's reasonable or realistic to expect the players to "cloister up" and not go out and club and party.  So what happens will depend upon their communities.

[Stampede2020]

17 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

Man this threads a trainwreck. 

Bc the moderators on TWS are hypocrites 

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think he could have phrased it more clearly, but you are misunderstanding Mr WEO, who is actually a medical professional and grounded in these things.....

 

....In context, it’s clear what’s meant is we’re back-and-forth discussing comorbidities, and his point is that roughly half of America has the comorbidities that have been associated with poor outcome/death from covid-19.  Those being obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and heart disease.  They are somewhat, but not totally, associated - meaning that when summed together, they pretty much do impact about half of America.

 

A fact which is sometimes glossed over when various media talk as though Covid can only be a serious disease if you’re so old you’re on death’s doorstep or have rare conditions.

That’s just not true.   

Football relevance: the obesity and for all we know hypertension may affect a significant # of NFL players (albeit if hypertension, I’m sure it’s controlled for them to be cleared to play and controlled hypertension does not appear to be as significant a co-morbidity.  Highly athletic, fit obesity may likewise pose less of a risk factor (though I haven’t seen any data).

 

Appreciate if you could ratchet back the sensitivity on your trigger finger for shooting at “panic porn” whatever that means.

So you get to continue talking about coronavirus and making it into a thread about this but other people aren’t? As long as they agree with you right? You’re way too biased to be a moderator. How about some objectivity please. 

[Stampede2020]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Overweight, no; obesity yes as a covid-19 risk factor.  Of course obesity tends to coincide with hypertension and type II diabetes but it aparently still shows as a risk factor when they try to sort out the confounding factors. 

Football relevance: since "blocking enough daylight" is considered a Good Thing in a DL or OLman and even TE are expected to have a bit of heft to them, those guys may not be the "lean mean health machines" that we might commonly expect of pro-athletes and some of them by body fat % would probably count as obese - some of them may be in higher "risk categories" than one thinks

 

If you look at retired OLmen like Eric Woods, wow do some of them look skinny next to their playing weights

 

 

Um.  Hypertension per se is not a risk factor that "leads to diabetes" [note to ScottLaw: correlation is not causation. current thinking common underlying cause]
Quite a number of people have hypertension who are not obese or even overweight.  For some people, losing some weight can reduce hypertension, but not for all people
 

And I think Gugny's point may have been that a lot of Americans eat fast food regularly and are not obese or even overweight

Again, you keep citing ‘misinformation’ yet don’t even realize you’re just promoting your own POV. You’re not the authority in any of this and your cited authorities aren’t objectively experts. If you can’t handle that you shouldn’t be allowed to moderate anything.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Stampede2020 said:

Again, you keep citing ‘misinformation’ yet don’t even realize you’re just promoting your own POV. You’re not the authority in any of this and your cited authorities aren’t objectively experts. If you can’t handle that you shouldn’t be allowed to moderate anything.

 

Dude, if you have complaints about me as a moderator, @SDS the board owner receives PMs.  There's also the Report function, where mods by consensus don't clear reports about ourselves so the other mods can see them and weigh in (this takes place in the moderator's forum, not on the main board for those who don't know).

 

If you're curious about my background or how I see it, you could also PM me.  Fair warning, I expect people who PM to be civil: avoid insults, bad language etc.

 

One way or the other, you will stop derailing this thread by making it about me.  I say the same to anyone who was engaging in repeated posts specifically directed at any individual poster.  Once happens, twice could be a habit, three times belongs in PM one way or another.

[Stampede2020]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

How do I file counter complaint on behalf of Hapless Billsfan for wasting time dealing w idiot poster...where is that button

Awww poor whittle GoBills808 is ? 

 

Maybe learn how to handle alternate POVs instead of promoting shutting them down? Echo chambers are no good for anyone 

[NewEra]

Just now, Stampede2020 said:

Awww poor whittle GoBills808 is ? 

 

Maybe learn how to handle alternate POVs instead of promoting shutting them down? Echo chambers are no good for anyone 

I didn’t know you existed until this thread.  I wish I had kept it that way.  ?

[billsfan89]

On 6/15/2020 at 9:28 AM, Logic said:

I remain pessimistic about a full season happening.

I stick with my position that the season will be started, but will not get the chance to finish.

 

 

I think fans in the stands is a pipe dream at this point. I think if the NFL hopes to start a new season it will be without fans

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Stampede2020 said:

Awww poor whittle GoBills808 is ? 

 

Maybe learn how to handle alternate POVs instead of promoting shutting them down? Echo chambers are no good for anyone 

Your ‘alternative POV’ might be better served checking out the OTW COVID discussion wherein the moderator in question has dedicated an extraordinary amount of time and professional expertise. 

[Stampede2020]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Your ‘alternative POV’ might be better served checking out the OTW COVID discussion wherein the moderator in question has dedicated an extraordinary amount of time and professional expertise. 

Oh ok sounds good 

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I didn’t know you existed until this thread.  I wish I had kept it that way.  ?

Oh darn I’m so sorry for you. You gonna manage bud?

[NewEra]

11 minutes ago, Stampede2020 said:

Oh ok sounds good 

Oh darn I’m so sorry for you. You gonna manage bud?

Absolutely.  

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, Stampede2020 said:

Oh ok sounds good 

Oh darn I’m so sorry for you. You gonna manage bud?

Now now....Stampede is entitled to his "POV" no matter how wrong it is

[Doc Brown]

6 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Cmon Doc, logically where do we stop this. Person A  works in a grocery store,  person B comes into store, person B girlfriends father's wife is asymptomatic covid, person B is now asymptomatic positive, ,Person B gives to Person A...and run your scenario from there. Should we require all groceries to be delivered to your home so no one in a nursing ever gets sick again? Tell me where the line is drawn...I am all for a TOTAL lockdown for 3 weeks...and i mean n o one leaves their freaking house, and essentials are delivered ala China...absent of that..we just whistling at the wind

I agree with you completely. I was just referring to the simplistic post where the poster said, "Now they have to have at least an 85 IQ not to to visit the in firmed,  old folks and nursing homes while during infectious stages."  Does he realize that he shouldn't visit ANYBODY while infected and self quarantine? 

[dollars 2 donuts]

On 6/15/2020 at 12:21 PM, Cal said:

Per NFL.com

 

Need to call off the 2020 season imo. You can't socially distance in a team sport like football. Its inevitable that players will continue to test positive.

 

 

Or those two players can separate themselves for 2 weeks.

 

It gets to this whole debate, which transcends sports: does everyone have to be quarantined or just the sick?  

 

I believe, especially at this point, we all have to take safety precautions, but when some get sick everything should not be shut down.

[Logic]

Just now, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Or those two players can separate themselves for 2 weeks.

 

It gets to this whole debate, which transcends sports: does everyone have to be quarantined or just the sick?  

 

I believe, especially at this point, we all have to take safety precautions, but when some get sick everything should not be shut down.

It gets tricky fast, though, even if you're only quarantining the sick.

Let's say it's a crucial divisional matchup to decide a playoff spot in the AFC. For the sake of argument, let's say its Bills vs Patriots.

The Patriots enter the game with no COVID infections and a pretty complete roster. The Bills, on the other hand, see Josh Allen, Stefon Diggs, and Tremaine Edmunds sidelined due to COVID. Is this the type of season we even want to watch? Sure, you can argue that there are injuries every year, but I think there's a good chance COVID infections will be much more prevalent.

Players also come into such close contact, both in locker rooms and on the field, that it seems unrealistic to think that COVID won't affect wide swaths of players as the season wears along. Many analysts expect there to be so many positive COVID cases throughout the season that each team would have to have a whole "taxi squad" of replacement players at the ready. How far into the bench of replacement players do we want to go? At what point is it no longer a fair representation of each team and, thus, a risk not worth putting people through?

[TigerJ]

I'm sure NFL teams will test players as they report to camp, and monitor symptoms closely day by day.  That may not completely eliminate the risk, but should keep the risk at acceptable levels.  Players who have it now should be over it and immune by the time camps start.

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

I'm sure NFL teams will test players as they report to camp, and monitor symptoms closely day by day.  That may not completely eliminate the risk, but should keep the risk at acceptable levels.  Players who have it now should be over it and immune by the time camps start.

As I understand it, there is not yet proof that COVID infection confers future immunity.

From the CDC website:

"Are you immune to the coronavirus disease after recovering from it?

The immune response, including duration of immunity, to SARS-CoV-2 infection is not yet understood."

[GG]

4 hours ago, Buddo said:

 

Soccer isn't anywhere near to being a good example to monitor. There are a lot less players available, for one thing. They are much more spread out naturally within the game.

 

You also have societal differences. In Germany, people generally are going to follow rules. In the US, not so much. Evidence for that would be how relatively successful the German lockdown has been, against many other countries, the US included.

 

A soccer team will probably have no more than 24 people involved in an actual game. The 11 starters, then 5 replacements, then about the same in coaches/managers/ fitness guys. (per team)

 

There are 53 guys in the playing roster on a Sunday. Probably a minimum of a dozen coaches, plus assorted trainers/waterboys. That's even before we get into the areas of contact, from within the game itself. Soccer doesn't have numerous instances of guys piling on after tackles, or in search of a fumbled football. It will be an awful lot easier for the virus to spread through an NFL roster, than it will be through a soccer team.

 

That isn't to say it will happen, just that it could, and sports generally aren't a low risk occupation, due to the amount of air expended when straining. They also aren't at the top of the risk tree either, but I think you could say that their risk factor would be fairly consistent.

 

 

The primary avenue for spreading the virus is in a closely confined space.  That would be the locker room or the training facility.   In this, there's far less difference for potential exposure between soccer & NFL football facilities.