JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Oh boy, another person who wants to take his rushing TDs off his stat sheet because only his throwing TDs count for you. Guess we should remove Lamars rushing impact too right? A TD is worth the same running it in or throwing it in. And maybe if we didn’t have scrubs like Zay, McKenzie, Foster, etc rotating as our starters opposite Brown all year, or if we didn’t lead the NFL in dropped passes, or half a season where his 3 starting WRs weren’t an average of 5’-10” etc some of those rushing TDs May have been throwing TDS. He put up 21 total TDs over that stretch, second ONLY to Lamar. And he was not 7-5, he was 7-4 because not only are you erasing his production, you’re also counting a game which Barkley lost for us as Josh barely played and was all Barkley in week 17. So, sorry your reply is not only missing important facts, it’s also counting inaccurate facts. It's bizarre to me that people can in one breath call Lamar an MVP, then in the next breath say JA's rushing TDs don't count. I just don't know how you reconcile those two opinions.
Alphadawg7 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: It's bizarre to me that people can in one breath call Lamar an MVP, then in the next breath say JA's rushing TDs don't count. I just don't know how you reconcile those two opinions. Exactly, its utterly insane. Makes no sense what so ever. A TD is worth 6 points no matter how its scored. Worse yet, nobody outside of Lamar from weeks 5-17 put up more TD's than Allen, and that includes not really playing much week 17, so really that was weeks 5-16. And he also only had 3 turnovers during that stretch too. End of the day, Josh Allen finished the second half of the season with a starting WR group averaging 5'10" in height, not exactly a red zone monster squad, with one of those guys not having any business being a starter in McKenzie. Then we had 9 new starts on the offense for a 2nd year QB to work with, led the NFL in drops, and had no real Redzone threats who were go to players. BUT...some people want to take away all the TD's Josh improvised to score when he didn't have an option open or on the called designed plays by our OC to take advantage of Josh ability to take it in himself. Utter nonsense to discredit that. Only in Buffalo do we take away the duel threat production of our duel threat QB. 30 total TDs in 2019 with all those obstacles above (and more) as a 2nd year QB who was raw coming into the league. Wait until people see what this kid does with this upgraded supporting cast and another year of continuity with the players here and epseically the OL. Edited June 16, 2020 by Alphadawg7
John from Riverside Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Exactly, its utterly insane. Makes no sense what so ever. A TD is worth 6 points no matter how its scored. Worse yet, nobody outside of Lamar from weeks 5-17 put up more TD's than Allen, and that includes not really playing much week 17, so really that was weeks 5-16. And he also only had 3 turnovers during that stretch too. End of the day, Josh Allen finished the second half of the season with a starting WR group averaging 5'10" in height, not exactly a red zone monster squad, with one of those guys not having any business being a starter in McKenzie. Then we had 9 new starts on the offense for a 2nd year QB to work with, led the NFL in drops, and had no real Redzone threats who were go to players. BUT...some people want to take away all the TD's Josh improvised to score when he didn't have an option open or on the called designed plays by our OC to take advantage of Josh ability to take it in himself. Utter nonsense to discredit that. Only in Buffalo do we take away the duel threat production of our duel threat QB. 30 total TDs in 2019 with all those obstacles above (and more) as a 2nd year QB who was raw coming into the league. Wait until people see what this kid does with this upgraded supporting cast and another year of continuity with the players here and epseically the OL. And this was with him making a more concerted effort to STAY in the pocket last year I dont understand it either.....if your a duel threat QB you can eliminate the "duel" when evaluating him. You want to complain about the turnovers? Fine You want to complain about the deep ball overthrows? Fine But come on....lets not COMPLAIN that he makes plays with his feet
Alphadawg7 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 21 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: And this was with him making a more concerted effort to STAY in the pocket last year I dont understand it either.....if your a duel threat QB you can eliminate the "duel" when evaluating him. You want to complain about the turnovers? Fine You want to complain about the deep ball overthrows? Fine But come on....lets not COMPLAIN that he makes plays with his feet Even the turnovers are not a fair complaint given he fixed that problem after week 5 to have only 3 to go with the 21 total TD's. But yes, exactly.
ngbills Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 2 hours ago, ngbills said: He only had 20 TD's all year. Not sure were the 21 TD's comes from. And from week 5-17 he threw for over 250 yd's 2 times (300 zero times). He completed less than 60% of his passes 5 times. QB rating in 60's 4 times. The team was 7-5. He was not dominant. He was a game manager. 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: Oh boy, another person who wants to take his rushing TDs off his stat sheet because only his throwing TDs count for you. Guess we should remove Lamars rushing impact too right? A TD is worth the same running it in or throwing it in. And maybe if we didn’t have scrubs like Zay, McKenzie, Foster, etc rotating as our starters opposite Brown all year, or if we didn’t lead the NFL in dropped passes, or half a season where his 3 starting WRs weren’t an average of 5’-10” etc some of those rushing TDs May have been throwing TDS. He put up 21 total TDs over that stretch, second ONLY to Lamar. And he was not 7-5, he was 7-4 because not only are you erasing his production, you’re also counting a game which Barkley lost for us as Josh barely played and was all Barkley in week 17. So, sorry your reply is not only missing important facts, it’s also counting inaccurate facts. 52 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: It's bizarre to me that people can in one breath call Lamar an MVP, then in the next breath say JA's rushing TDs don't count. I just don't know how you reconcile those two opinions. Lets keep it real and honest. I was referencing passing stats and said not sure where the 21 TD's comes from. I never said rushing TD's dont count. And talk about inaccurate facts: "And maybe if we didn’t have scrubs like Zay, McKenzie, Foster, etc rotating as our starters opposite Brown all year" - Zay and Foster barely played. McK was our gadget WR. It was Brown, Beasley, Knox, and Singletary in most sets. Sprinkle in McK, D Williams, Roberts, etc. He was not second to only Lamar. Just a quick search shows Brees had 26 TD's, Tannehill 26, Winston 25, Wilson 24, Watson 24, Dak at 23, Garappolo 23, Cousins 23, Fitzpatrick 23, and a few more with 21. His stats show he was 7-5 not 7-4. You can put a asterisk but that does not change the "fact". Rushing TD's do count. Without his rushing ability Allen is not even close to the same QB he is. It supplements the shortfalls in his passing game. But as the NFL has shown is not sustainable. A QB needs to be able to throw the ball. Allen as a throwing QB is not there yet.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 20 minutes ago, ngbills said: Lets keep it real and honest. I was referencing passing stats and said not sure where the 21 TD's comes from. I never said rushing TD's dont count. And talk about inaccurate facts: "And maybe if we didn’t have scrubs like Zay, McKenzie, Foster, etc rotating as our starters opposite Brown all year" - Zay and Foster barely played. McK was our gadget WR. It was Brown, Beasley, Knox, and Singletary in most sets. Sprinkle in McK, D Williams, Roberts, etc. He was not second to only Lamar. Just a quick search shows Brees had 26 TD's, Tannehill 26, Winston 25, Wilson 24, Watson 24, Dak at 23, Garappolo 23, Cousins 23, Fitzpatrick 23, and a few more with 21. His stats show he was 7-5 not 7-4. You can put a asterisk but that does not change the "fact". Rushing TD's do count. Without his rushing ability Allen is not even close to the same QB he is. It supplements the shortfalls in his passing game. But as the NFL has shown is not sustainable. A QB needs to be able to throw the ball. Allen as a throwing QB is not there yet. You should have let the 7-5 v. 7-4 go. You lose alot of credibility defending bad arguments. All that being said, do you also therefore agree that Lamar Jackson is just a flash in the pan?
ngbills Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: You should have let the 7-5 v. 7-4 go. You lose alot of credibility defending bad arguments. All that being said, do you also therefore agree that Lamar Jackson is just a flash in the pan? Only mention the record because of the call out of facts. The opinion is he should be considered 7-4 but the fact is that he is 7-5. That is what the record books will show. Not looking to debate or argue anything, it is what it is. Lamar Jackson is a better passer than Josh Allen as of now. I do think the running part of his game will be less significant as teams game plan to limit it and he will rely more on his passing skills. It is much easier for a defense to scheme around limiting a running QB than a passing one. Still an important skillset but to be a QB you need to be able to throw the rock.
Chicken Boo Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 QB: C RB: B TE: C WR: B+ OL: C CB: B S: B+ LB: C+ DL: C+ ST: C Pretty spot on, OP. We're not awful or elite anywhere. Just a solid group that, collectively, can make some noise.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, ngbills said: Only mention the record because of the call out of facts. The opinion is he should be considered 7-4 but the fact is that he is 7-5. That is what the record books will show. Not looking to debate or argue anything, it is what it is. Lamar Jackson is a better passer than Josh Allen as of now. I do think the running part of his game will be less significant as teams game plan to limit it and he will rely more on his passing skills. It is much easier for a defense to scheme around limiting a running QB than a passing one. Still an important skillset but to be a QB you need to be able to throw the rock. This just fundamentally misunderstands passing defense, how offenses works, and Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen's short comings.
ngbills Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 53 minutes ago, ngbills said: Lamar Jackson is a better passer than Josh Allen as of now. I do think the running part of his game will be less significant as teams game plan to limit it and he will rely more on his passing skills. It is much easier for a defense to scheme around limiting a running QB than a passing one. Still an important skillset but to be a QB you need to be able to throw the rock. 27 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: This just fundamentally misunderstands passing defense, how offenses works, and Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen's short comings. How so?
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, ngbills said: How so? Lamar isn't a good passer. His running forced defenses to run heavy sets, leaving his WRs in isolation and TEs with mismatches. Play action in this setting left him with wide open receivers and ample opportunity for yac. Though the situation rarely came up because they gained so many 1st and 2nd down yards, Lamar fell apart in 3rd and distance situations, where he had to complete a pass to get the first down. This was because there were more guys in coverage, and more DBs than in base sets. JA didn't hit the deep ball, but he was as good as you can hope for on intermediate passes, which is where all those passer traits you look for in a QB really come into play--arm strength, decision making, reading the defense. JA may not be better than Lamar, but that's only because he can't run like Lamar.
ngbills Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Lamar isn't a good passer. His running forced defenses to run heavy sets, leaving his WRs in isolation and TEs with mismatches. Play action in this setting left him with wide open receivers and ample opportunity for yac. Though the situation rarely came up because they gained so many 1st and 2nd down yards, Lamar fell apart in 3rd and distance situations, where he had to complete a pass to get the first down. This was because there were more guys in coverage, and more DBs than in base sets. JA didn't hit the deep ball, but he was as good as you can hope for on intermediate passes, which is where all those passer traits you look for in a QB really come into play--arm strength, decision making, reading the defense. JA may not be better than Lamar, but that's only because he can't run like Lamar. That may be how you see it but most non-Bills fans would not agree with you. Jackson was excellent as a pocket passer last year. Lets look at some of your comments: 3rd and 7+ Jackson: 30-51 for 436 resulting in 19 1st downs; 1 Int Allen was: 40-71 for 529 resulting in 22 1st downs; 1 int Jackson - more accurate, more efficient and more success getting the first down Play Action Jackson: 66.3% completion % on non-play action vs. 65.5% on play action 30% of TD's on play action 28% of yards on play action QB Rating 120 on play action vs 110 Allen: 57.1% completion % on non-play action vs. 65.6% on play action 40% of TD's on play action 25% of yards on play action QB Rating 112 on play action vs 79 Allen benefited more than Jackson utilizing the play action. Allen shows a much larger statistical difference on play action plays than Jackson. Time in Pocket Jackson: >2.5 secs completes 64% of passes Allen: >2.5 secs completes 48% of passes Jackson is much more accurate when having time in pocket.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 1 hour ago, ngbills said: That may be how you see it but most non-Bills fans would not agree with you. Jackson was excellent as a pocket passer last year. Lets look at some of your comments: 3rd and 7+ Jackson: 30-51 for 436 resulting in 19 1st downs; 1 Int Allen was: 40-71 for 529 resulting in 22 1st downs; 1 int Jackson - more accurate, more efficient and more success getting the first down Play Action Jackson: 66.3% completion % on non-play action vs. 65.5% on play action 30% of TD's on play action 28% of yards on play action QB Rating 120 on play action vs 110 Allen: 57.1% completion % on non-play action vs. 65.6% on play action 40% of TD's on play action 25% of yards on play action QB Rating 112 on play action vs 79 Allen benefited more than Jackson utilizing the play action. Allen shows a much larger statistical difference on play action plays than Jackson. Time in Pocket Jackson: >2.5 secs completes 64% of passes Allen: >2.5 secs completes 48% of passes Jackson is much more accurate when having time in pocket. I'll be honest, I didn't realize he had those stats on third and long. They are much better than I thought; I was, after all, going off of his performance against the Bills and in big games. The remainder continues to miss the point, however. This isn't a stat debate. This is a play style/coordination debate. His passing success flows from how defenses have to play him. If he is injured, and not able to run, he will fail. Teams don't play nickel and dime defenses against him, because they play so many 2/3 TE sets and because he is always a threat to run. Those sets are on the field, even when he doesn't go off play action.
Alphadawg7 Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, ngbills said: Lets keep it real and honest. I was referencing passing stats and said not sure where the 21 TD's comes from. I never said rushing TD's dont count. And talk about inaccurate facts: "And maybe if we didn’t have scrubs like Zay, McKenzie, Foster, etc rotating as our starters opposite Brown all year" - Zay and Foster barely played. McK was our gadget WR. It was Brown, Beasley, Knox, and Singletary in most sets. Sprinkle in McK, D Williams, Roberts, etc. He was not second to only Lamar. Just a quick search shows Brees had 26 TD's, Tannehill 26, Winston 25, Wilson 24, Watson 24, Dak at 23, Garappolo 23, Cousins 23, Fitzpatrick 23, and a few more with 21. His stats show he was 7-5 not 7-4. You can put a asterisk but that does not change the "fact". Rushing TD's do count. Without his rushing ability Allen is not even close to the same QB he is. It supplements the shortfalls in his passing game. But as the NFL has shown is not sustainable. A QB needs to be able to throw the ball. Allen as a throwing QB is not there yet. Again, only counting the games Josh played in, so weeks 5-16 (not 17). It was posted here a bunch of times, so maybe where ever that originated from is slightly inaccurate, but he was still amongst the league leaders during that stretch and had one of the best TD to Turnover ratios with 21 to 3. And dont pretend you didnt disregard the running, you didnt count anything other than passing stats. You then held your hat on an even dumber stat of 7-5, when the reality and true facts is Josh was really 7-4. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. And stop justifying the bad receiving group last year, they were below average at best. We led the league with drops, and didnt have a single WR opposite of Brown worthy of playing time, and no Cole doesnt count because he is only a short underneath option and doesnt play opposite of Brown Edited June 17, 2020 by Alphadawg7
buffalo2218 Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 Hmm, I guess to settle the 7-5 7-4 argument would be to question had Allen played the full game week 17, does he beat the Jets? Given Darnold managed only 13 points against mostly our second string defense, it’s a fairly good bet he does
auburnbillsbacker Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 QB: C+ based on last years production but I think it finishes with a better grade. RB: C+ just because Moss is unproven. If he is a similar talent to Singletary this goes up. WR A- The Bills have a true 1 and a solid 2 and 3. There is young depth too. OL B 4-5 solid starters and great depth DL B+ Good starters and great depth LB B- Edmund's and Milano are perfect for our scheme DB A- On star with White, 2 really good safeties, and depth at CB.
ngbills Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 17 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I'll be honest, I didn't realize he had those stats on third and long. They are much better than I thought; I was, after all, going off of his performance against the Bills and in big games. The remainder continues to miss the point, however. This isn't a stat debate. This is a play style/coordination debate. His passing success flows from how defenses have to play him. If he is injured, and not able to run, he will fail. Teams don't play nickel and dime defenses against him, because they play so many 2/3 TE sets and because he is always a threat to run. Those sets are on the field, even when he doesn't go off play action. I agree with you in theory regarding play style. Josh has more of the tools and traits needed to succeed long term in the league than Jackson. But as of today all things being equal and against the exact same defenses I still say Jackson is the better QB. Hopefully after this season that is put to rest and Allen shows he is the guy. Put another way - if I need to win a game tomorrow then I take Jackson as my QB. If I want to win for the next 10 years I am more likely to take Allen.
ngbills Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Again, only counting the games Josh played in, so weeks 5-16 (not 17). It was posted here a bunch of times, so maybe where ever that originated from is slightly inaccurate, but he was still amongst the league leaders during that stretch and had one of the best TD to Turnover ratios with 21 to 3. And dont pretend you didnt disregard the running, you didnt count anything other than passing stats. You then held your hat on an even dumber stat of 7-5, when the reality and true facts is Josh was really 7-4. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. And stop justifying the bad receiving group last year, they were below average at best. We led the league with drops, and didnt have a single WR opposite of Brown worthy of playing time, and no Cole doesnt count because he is only a short underneath option and doesnt play opposite of Brown This is called being a fan. You see your player differently than others. You make excuses and justifications for your guy. It is ok for Allen not to be a finished product after two years. He can still be a megastar in this league. He has ways to go. But it is extremely naive to claim that he was one of the best QB's in the league last year. To set the record straight again. I do not disregard his running. Without it I would not want him starting at QB at this point in his career. His running makes up for weaknesses in his game and will always have value. Someday it will not be his saving grace but just an added bonus.
ny33 Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 22 hours ago, John from Riverside said: And this was with him making a more concerted effort to STAY in the pocket last year I dont understand it either.....if your a duel threat QB you can eliminate the "duel" when evaluating him. You want to complain about the turnovers? Fine You want to complain about the deep ball overthrows? Fine But come on....lets not COMPLAIN that he makes plays with his feet Last I checked, dueling was outlawed in the 19th century.
billsfan89 Posted June 17, 2020 Posted June 17, 2020 I don't understand how anyone here is rating this LB core as anything less than a B. Edumonds was named rightfully so for the Pro-Bowl and was playing at a borderline All-Pro level the back half of the season. Milano has been playing at a borderline Pro-Bowl level for back to back seasons. In the handful of games he missed in 2019 the defense definitely missed him significantly. Both of these young players could easily be named to the Pro-Bowl and one could be all Pro but you look at this core (which also added a mid-level at worst player in Klein to round it out) and go eh its a C or C+? The depth might be lacking but if having one possible All-Pro, One possible Pro-Bowl player and another average player makes you a C then point to another LB unit in the league that is an A?
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