Bill O'Brien will kneel...JJ Watt says kneeling is no disrespect to the flag or military

[Putin]

26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 By that logic how is the president different from a fry cook?

Because most of the people LOVE fried food?

[Blank Stare]

42 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

Well, there is the racism we are looking for. You dont know if im Hispanic, black, Asian, white... yet let's see how you react to me pointing out exactly how racist stupid comments like yours are.

What’s any of that got to do with acknowledging systemic racism and injustice for people of color in this country?  History has its eyes on you and every other person who is butt hurt over this movement. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by TheProcess

[Putin]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

I Appreciate your sentiments, and I thank you,  it was a privilege to serve my country.

 

 The owners of our country, yes us citizens, in effect have no constitutional rights if government or business entities can thwart them when ever they feel inclined. The playing field is not level. 

 

Capitalism brings many rewards, and is mostly a good thing,  but greed and power (capitalism’s twin evils) need to be properly regulated for the common good of everyone. Presently the greed and power aspects are out of hand, and those two things are the root cause of our current social unrest. 
 

 

Thank you for your service ??? !!!!

Edited June 14, 2020 by Putin

[thunderingsquid]

[4merper4mer]

15 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Scream buzzwords!  Since that's all your mind is capable of anyway.  

I wish my mind were capable enough to agree with everything the great and glorious Capco thinks.  If only everyone were just like you.

 

Here is how I currently feel:

 

I would neither support nor withhold support for whatever action McD or anyone else takes.  I am not aghast that people would vote either way on such a narrowly worded poll question on a football website.  I do not pretend to know the opinions each of them hold which resulted in their vote.  Even if I understood all of a person's reasons and disagreed 100% I would support their right to express their view.  Supporting their right is not the same thing as supporting their action or inaction.

 

To to me the anthem represents the ideals of our country. Personally, I would never kneel or turn my back to it because I believe in those ideals.  Do we ever fail to live up to those ideals?  Yes we do.  That is also true of every other country, indeed every other individual in the history of mankind.  So if you're kneeling due to failure to live up to our ideals, you will always kneel.  That's fine.  Your choice.  If you pick and choose some ideals or a threshold of how much we missed by.....also your choice.

 

If someone does not believe in our ideals at all, then they they should take whatever action they deem fit with respect to kneeling, protest, whatever.  They have that right.  If they want to kneel because they feel our ideals haven't been met I think that is also fine but I find it inconsistent.  If they want to kneel because they got shorted on pepperoni on the pizza they ordered....also fine.....even more inconsistent.

 

I do not support or withhold support for any decision anyone makes in this latest go round on the topic....or any go round.  It is not my place.  I think it is highly presumptuous of someone to express shock that someone gave or withheld support and demand everyone feel the way they feel.  I would not get on my high horse and deem either group ignorant as you have chosen to do because of your perceived superior intellect.

 

Because of my incapable mind I am clearly wrong.  Please teach me oh great one.

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

There are millions of other ways to fight for a cause.  This way is not how you win people over and it will never will be.

 

Yet public support for that cause has gone way up since the protests started.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/502267-support-for-black-lives-matter-doubles-since-2016-poll

 

Support in the U.S. for the Black Lives Matter movement has more than doubled since 2016, according to a poll released Thursday. 

Fifty-seven percent of American adults said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter, according to the Yahoo News-YouGov survey, compared to 27 percent who said the same in a similar poll four years ago.

An overwhelming 84 percent of respondents who are Democrats now say they have a favorable opinion of the Black Lives Matter movement, a 30-point jump since 2016. Support among independents jumped to 55 percent from 21 percent four years ago. 

Just 27 percent of Republican respondents said they have a favorable opinion of Black Lives Matter in the recent poll, but that is more than six times the 4 percent who said the same in 2016.

 

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_060220/

 

The poll finds that 76% of Americans now say that racial and ethnic discrimination is a big problem in the United States, while 16% say it is a lesser problem and just 7% say it is not a problem.  The number who say discrimination is a big problem has increased from 51% in January 2015 and 68% in July 2016.

 

A majority of Americans (57%) say that police officers facing a difficult or dangerous situation are more likely to use excessive force if the culprit is black, compared to one-third (33%) who say the police are just as likely to use excessive force against black and white culprits in the same type of situation. The current findings represent a marked change in public opinion from prior polls. In a poll of registered voters taken after the police shooting of Alton Sterling in Louisiana in July 2016, just 34% said blacks were more likely to be subject to excessive force while 52% said they were just as likely as whites.

Currently, 49% of white Americans say that police are more likely to use excessive force against a black culprit, which is nearly double the number (25%) who said the same in 2016.

 

Obviously these massive changes in public opinion aren't solely because of the anthem protests but they definitely played a part. Kaepernick wanted to start a conversation and you certainly can't say he failed.

[StHustle]

4 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

"From the perspective of a minority person I think blaming white racism for all the problems faced by African-American people and communities is blacks saying the white man has the power to decide our fate. And the only way things are going to get better for us is if white people become less racist and treat us better.  And white people joining in kneeling isn't so much joining us in the fight but rather them giving us their permission to try to improve our conditions.  The entire concept ignores the principles of free will & control of your own destiny and replaces that with a mindset of dependence. Other minorities that prosper in America don't have this mindset. Think about that?"

 

I am also a successful black business owner in America. But I am not going to act as if systemic racism isnt alive and well because I overcame. I am a Hutch Tech and RIT grad but from one of the most infamous neighborhoods on Buffalo's east side. I made some bad decisions and became a felon sentenced to 2 years in prison for possession of marijuana back in 2010. Yet I overcame. Why? Because I had 2 great parents (one a retired Army major and the other a retired NYS Corrections officer) who taught me valuable lessons I chose not to use until my back was against the wall, an ex felon with few options at making a living. The point I am making is the PARENTS aspect. I am extremely blessed to have had 2 great parents. This is very rare in the ghettos of America. Its easy to look at people in theses ghettos and blame them for their positions but if you understood the history behind it and the American system designed by pure racists to keep the black man down, you'd recognize a game with the deck totally stacked against us. Please take a sec to watch this short video and maybe you can gain some insight:

 

 

[Rocky Landing]

6 hours ago, BillsFan17 said:

I'm just curious, where exactly is systemic racism prevalent? Now, keep in mind you don't know my gender, my race, my religion, absolutely anything else. Do not get defensive, just simply asking a question.

 

Moreover, this whole, this is when we choose to do it, but it doesnt mean we are being disrespectful... its the equivalent of saying "no offense, but..." before saying something *****.

I think a lot of people have a problem with the concept of systemic racism because they may take it to imply that racism is specifically written into law, and code. That’s obviously not the case. I could do some quick (very quick) research, and cite stats about how black Americans are treated differently in everywhere from the workplace, schools, the justice system, etc., or I could go on about this country’s 400+ year history of racism. But, historic racism, and statistics don’t seem to be enough to illustrate how it is systemic.

 

That word, “systemic,” defined as “fundamental to a predominant social, economic, or political practice,” leaves a lot to interpretation. So, consider the following occurrences:

 

In 2015, two armed men walked into a sheriff’s station in Oregon, leaving two men guarding the station’s front door armed with shotguns, and demanded that the sheriff not take two convicted arsonists into custody to serve their sentences, threatening the sheriff with massive retaliation were he not to comply. They left without incident, and no charges were filed.

A few weeks ago, a group of protesters, armed with assault rifles, entered the Michigan Statehouse, shouted at police within a foot of their faces, and impeded the movement of police, and government officials. They left without incident, and no charges were filed.

 

In the above two cases, no other information is necessary to know exactly the complexion of those involved. But, “systemic” goes beyond just law enforcement. It’s pervasive. A systemic disease affects the whole body.

 

Ten days ago, CNN reported on some new information regarding a child who had gone missing over a decade ago. Not one more word of information is needed— every person reading this knows exactly what this child looks like. It’s almost as if black lives just don’t matter as much.

 

But, to your last point, I just don't accept your equivalence. Saying "no offense, but..." and then saying something offensive, is a clear path to disrespect. Kneeling, in and of itself, is not an offensive gesture. The anthem, and the flag are symbols of the country as a whole. And, honestly, I can't shake the suspicion that the vast majority of people who are so stubbornly clinging onto the "kneeling disrespects our vets" narrative truly want this protest to be disrespecting vets. It's a much safer position to be against disrespecting vets than it is to be against protesting systemic racism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Rocky Landing

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Putin said:

How many of us have the ok ??

And yes if Boss gives the ok then the answer is obviously yes , but if that ok will divide the company then there will be a discussion and that’s where we are at the moment 

So, you’re just jealous? 

[Putin]

Just now, K-9 said:

So, you’re just jealous? 

My boss sucks but he pays good , 

[Capco]

4 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

I would not get on my high horse and deem either group ignorant as you have chosen to do because of your perceived superior intellect.

 

Oooof.  Dude, this entire post is you being on your high horse. 

 

You were responding to someone who couldn't believe how many people would be opposed to this action, and your response was to reduce their sentiment to the notion that everyone should think like they do as if it were some sort of top-down mandate to coerce the masses into subjugation, which is exactly what groupthink is a reference to.  

 

You're as transparent as you are ignorant.  All I did was call out your bs.  

[Heavy Kevi]

9 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I Appreciate your sentiments, and I thank you,  it was a privilege to serve my country.

 

 The owners of our country, yes us citizens, in effect have no constitutional rights if government or business entities can thwart them when ever they feel inclined. The playing field is not level. 

 

Capitalism brings many rewards, and is mostly a good thing,  but greed and power (capitalism’s twin evils) need to be properly regulated for the common good of everyone. Presently the greed and power aspects are out of hand, and those two things are the root cause of our current social unrest. 
 

 

 

Again I really agree with you on most points, but let me put forth myself as an example because I'm curious to see what you think about it.

 

I own a small bbq restaurant and bar in Geneva NY. I haven't "made it" by any means and like many restaurants right now we are fighting for our lives. I don't mean to sound like I am in a dire situation, I am hopeful when we open back up (this Tuesday), we will be busy and at least keep the books in the black long enough for everything to get back to some semblance of normal.

 

So, say one of my employees wants to make a radical political stands at work. They are not doing it in a way that stops them from doing their job, but thanks to the hundreds of people that come through each day, they get decent exposure of their radical beliefs (whatever they may be), and "furthers the cause". Sounds ok right? They aren't interrupting their work, after all.

 

Consider this- that political stands has a chance to (however severely) negatively effect my business. Maybe I lose some business, maybe because covid has already weakened our stance, my business doesn't survive (again no matter how likely). The employee really has nothing at stake other than a chance of losing their job, where I have the chance of losing everything. So basically allowing my employees to make political stands at work could cause me to lose everything.

 

I only pose this because the "business" many people speak of in a negative light are huge corporations, but in actuality more Americans are employed by small businesses. I'm a regular person that grew up poor, in an area of poor socioeconomic status- certainly not some elite, and I know I'm not the only business owner that, despite popular belief, doesn't have a huge bank account or nice things. Truth be told, my wait staff makes more money than me every single day. I don't resent that, I'm happy to provide viable jobs, but I don't think any business should ever be on the line because of political beliefs held by someone it gainfully employs.

[Putin]

20 minutes ago, thunderingsquid said:

I’m offended by this whole whitey thing !!! 

[thunderingsquid]

1 minute ago, Putin said:

I’m offended by this whole whitey thing !!! 

Sorry I hurt your feelings with my spicy satire.

[4merper4mer]

9 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Oooof.  Dude, this entire post is you being on your high horse. 

 

You were responding to someone who couldn't believe how many people would be opposed to this action, and your response was to reduce their sentiment to the notion that everyone should think like they do as if it were some sort of top-down mandate to coerce the masses into subjugation, which is exactly what groupthink is a reference to.  

 

You're as transparent as you are ignorant.  All I did was call out your bs.  

All I asked is that you tell me what to think because you proclaimed me ignorant and incapable.  Please teach my why everyone should vote the same way on this poll.

 

As a bonus please explain why demanding everyone have the same opinion isn't an example of groupthink.  I don't get that either.

 

 Please please oh great one.

Edited June 14, 2020 by 4merper4mer

[BillsFan17]

33 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

What’s any of that got to do with acknowledging systemic racism and injustice for people of color in this country?  History has its eyes on you and every other person who is butt hurt over this movement. 

Who said I was butt hurt? Racism is racism no matter how you slice it.

14 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

I think a lot of people have a problem with the concept of systemic racism because they may take it to imply that racism is specifically written into law, and code. That’s obviously not the case. I could do some quick (very quick) research, and cite stats about how black Americans are treated differently in everywhere from the workplace, schools, the justice system, etc., or I could go on about this country’s 400+ year history of racism. But, historic racism, and statistics don’t seem to be enough to illustrate how it is systemic.

 

That word, “systemic,” defined as “fundamental to a predominant social, economic, or political practice,” leaves a lot to interpretation. So, consider the following occurrences:

 

In 2015, two armed men walked into a sheriff’s station in Oregon, leaving two men guarding the station’s front door armed with shotguns, and demanded that the sheriff not take two convicted arsonists into custody to serve their sentences, threatening the sheriff with massive retaliation were he not to comply. They left without incident, and no charges were filed.

A few weeks ago, a group of protesters, armed with assault rifles, entered the Michigan Statehouse, shouted at police within a foot of their faces, and impeded the movement of police, and government officials. They left without incident, and no charges were filed.

 

In the above two cases, no other information is necessary to know exactly the complexion of those involved. But, “systemic” goes beyond just law enforcement. It’s pervasive. A systemic disease affects the whole body.

 

Ten days ago, CNN reported on some new information regarding a child who had gone missing over a decade ago. Not one more word of information is needed— every person reading this knows exactly what this child looks like. It’s almost as if black lives just don’t matter as much.

 

But, to your last point, I just don't accept your equivalence. Saying "no offense, but..." and then saying something offensive, is a clear path to disrespect. Kneeling, in and of itself, is not an offensive gesture. The anthem, and the flag are symbols of the country as a whole. And, honestly, I can't shake the suspicion that the vast majority of people who are so stubbornly clinging onto the "kneeling disrespects out vets" narrative truly want this protest to be disrespecting vets. It's a much safer position to be against disrespecting vets than it is to be against protesting systemic racism.

 

 

 

I'll wait for your stats

[Capco]

4 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

All I asked is that you tell me what to think because you proclaimed me ignorant and incapable.  Please teach my why everyone should vote the same way on this poll.  Please please oh great one.

 

No one has said that everyone should vote one way in the entire 7 pages of this thread. 

 

Just because you've been trained into reducing opposing viewpoints into some type of Orwellian dystopian belief doesn't mean that's the reality chief.  

Edited June 14, 2020 by Capco

[4merper4mer]

Just now, Capco said:

 

No one has said that everyone should vote one way in entire the 7 pages of this thread. 

 

Just because you've been trained into reducing opposing viewpoints into some type of Orwellian dystopian belief doesn't mean that's the reality chief.  

I just can't wrap my incapable and ignorant mind why you proclaimed anyone who voted in a way different from you as ignorant.  Please please help.

[K-9]

59 minutes ago, bigK14094 said:

simple reason for a no vote:  I pay to see the football game.  I pay to be entertained.  I do not pay to be lectured to about any political belief of any brand.  So, I am being expected to adopt a specific view based on kneeling players and coaches beliefs?  I do not value their view in the stadium forum, they are entitled to have to views and express them on their time.  but, as Billy Joel says in the song..."NOT ON MY TIME"  Do your politicking when not in uniform and when I am not forced to be there because I like to watch football.  I am not saying there are not problems these movements should impact.....I am saying, I don't like  being subjected in an entertainment venue.  TAKE IT SOMEWHERE ELSE!

Isn’t it our time, Mr. Hand?
 

[Rico]

Much cleaner if they just took a knee right before the kickoff, after the anthem has already been played.