Jauronimo Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Devil’s Advocate said: What is the protest exactly? Systemic racism seems like an intangible force that we have to assume exists. What is the exact complaint or injustice? Is it our police’s treatment of minorities? Because I have seen multiple studies that show law enforcement officers are more likely to use lethal force on white offenders than any other race. And over the last couple decades, it stays consistent that Twice as many white people are killed by police every year than black people. You're comparing gross numbers on ~60% of the population vs. ~13% of the population. By this logic, white QBs throw more interceptions than black QBs (even when accounting for Jameis Winston) and therefore are twice as careless with the football. Edited June 16, 2020 by Jauronimo 2
Rob's House Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 46 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said: ~1 in 1000 black men can expect to be killed by police. (It's about 1 in 2000 for white men, which is still too high IMO.) https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 ~1 in 15000 people can expect to be struck by lightning. Are some (most?) of these killings justifiable in some way? I'm sure that's the case. But the problem is that there is such a culture of cops protecting each other, and no real oversight, so we just don't know. For anyone who is really interested in finding out more about where we currently are, I highly recommend "13th" on Netflix. I've seen that before but it's inapposite to the example. That number (which is rounded up quite a bit) includes all shooting deaths by police. We're talking about people who are murdered, or at least killed without reasonable justification, by police. It's hard to get a precise number on that, but it's clearly the minority of cases. WaPo now shows 14 unarmed black men were killed by cops last year (up from 9 two weeks ago. It's likely that not ALL shootings of armed men are justified, just as not all shootings unarmed men are unjustified. So I can't fairly give an exact number. So it is fair to say that I cannot definitely conclude that you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than being murdered by a cop, but the fact that it's in the ballpark says a lot about the actual risk vs the perception.
keepthefaith Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) On 6/14/2020 at 12:17 PM, GreggTX said: Kneeling harms no one and the right to do so is enshrined in the constitution, flawed though it may be. He can kneel or stand for whatever his reasons may be. Not while on the job. The employer can set policy and IMO athletes or any other employees should protest on their own time. The NFL should not allow players or team personnel during games or pressers or work time to use it as a platform for political protest or expression. It's bad for business. 36 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: You're comparing gross numbers on ~60% of the population vs. ~13% of the population. By this logic, white QBs throw more interceptions than black QBs (even when accounting for Jameis Winston) and therefore are twice as careless with the football. Bad math. 60% and 13% of the population are not involved with law enforcement. The denominator in that equation is the number of people involved with law enforcement in criminal encounters. Edited June 16, 2020 by keepthefaith 1
muppy Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 48 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: The lethal force used against George Floyd was the spark that lit the fuse. I encourage all of us who are not black to talk to some of your black neighbors, or read some literature. It is about being pulled over more frequently for no reason. It is about different housing opportunities, business opportunities. And so on. I don’t pretend to understand the plight of black men in America, and I don’t necessarily agree with each point. But if you take the time to listen it becomes a lot easier to understand why blacks feel systemic racism exists. And hard to argue. I have a story regarding a close family friend from my church where his daughter (a college athlete at a Christian university great kid) was driving an uber for extra money during a college break and pulled over late at night. Ordered out of the car at gunpoint for no good reason she was 100% cooperative. He saw black skin and that was all it took. This kid was traumatized and for no good reason. Im sure many stories like this are out there. Racism is REAL. She is 6'2"and built like a brick you know what VERY athletic yeah she had some tats but a total sweetheart she was prejudged and as such treated like a criminal. Pisses me off royal. She did live to tell the tale and no ticket. Nor apology either. 1
Jauronimo Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 17 minutes ago, keepthefaith said: Not while on the job. The employer can set policy and IMO athletes or any other employees should protest on their own time. The NFL should not allow players or team personnel during games or pressers or work time to use it as a platform for political protest or expression. It's bad for business. Bad math. 60% and 13% of the population are not involved with law enforcement. The denominator in that equation is the number of people involved with law enforcement in criminal encounters. There are no statistics I am aware of that show shootings, fatalities, or use of force per police encounter. We do the best with what we have. Either way, the post I quoted completely butchered math.
Augie Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: There are no statistics I am aware of that show shootings, fatalities, or use of force per police encounter. We do the best with what we have. Either way, the post I quoted completely butchered math. If you shoot someone fleeing in the back, I get to skip all the math. I know it’s a difficult job, but if you are shooting someone in the back, that’s a serious “no-brainier” losing position. The guy in Atlanta was a criminal passed out in a Wendy’s drive-thru. He should have gone to jail. He should NOT have gone to the morgue. You have his car, his info and he blew. You have the assault of police on video. You win......unless you shoot him in the back. Why is this so hard??? . Edited June 16, 2020 by Augie 2
Jauronimo Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Augie said: If you shoot someone fleeing in the back, I get to skip all the math. I know it’s a difficult job, but if you are shooting someone in the back, that’s a serious “no-brainier” losing position. The guy in Atlanta was a criminal passed out in a Wendy’s drive-thru. He should have gone to jail. He should NOT have gone to the morgue. You have his car, his info and he blew. You have the assault of police on video. You win......unless you shoot him in the back. Why is this so hard??? . Does this rant have anything to do with what I said? Who are you arguing with?
Doc Brown Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 50 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: You're comparing gross numbers on ~60% of the population vs. ~13% of the population. By this logic, white QBs throw more interceptions than black QBs (even when accounting for Jameis Winston) and therefore are twice as careless with the football. You have to also factor in that black people commit more crime than white people. In 2018 the rates of violent crime was 3.6 times higher by black people than white people. Studies have shown when controlling for all those variables that white people get shot and killed by police more percentage wise while blacks have excessive force used against them. However, white people tend to encounter cops more in grave situations (active shooting scenarios for example) while black people interact with cops in more non deadly situations and this is probably due to racial profiling (driving while black comes to mind). Throwing all the convoluted statistics out the window, there's a reason black people are more afraid of cops than white people and the BLM movement didn't form based on a lie.
Augie Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: Does this rant have anything to do with what I said? Who are you arguing with? It’s just a reaction to watching the local news again. There is the big picture where you can use math, then there is the local picture where I keep seeing a guy shot multiple times in the back as he’s running away. I’m not arguing with anyone, just moved by a single needless death. Go to the guy’s house, and wait for him to show up. Easy enough. You’ll have him in 24 hours. He survives, cops win, nothing gets burned down. I liked what I saw of the ex-police Chief, but it seems training or common sense are missing. I’m at a loss, but mostly just sad.
Rob's House Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 Speaking of cancel culture The wacko Twitter mob is calling for boycotts of Domino's over this. 2
Bangarang Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, SoTier said: Who are these people who are losing their livelihoods because they refuse to kneel? Colin Kaepernick is the only person who lost his job "over this" and it was because he started "this", ie, the kneeling during the national anthem. Not literally kneeling but questioning BLM or even saying something that is not in direct support of BLM are being heavily scrutinized and peoplr are losing their jobs. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/06/15/vermont-principal-placed-on-leave-over-facebook-post-on-blm/amp/ https://petapixel.com/2020/06/10/bh-removes-employee-over-anti-blm-tweets/ There are many more but you probably get the point. Edited June 16, 2020 by Bangarang
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 22 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Not literally kneeling but questioning BLM or even saying something that is not in direct support of BLM are being heavily scrutinized and peoplr are losing their jobs. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2020/06/15/vermont-principal-placed-on-leave-over-facebook-post-on-blm/amp/ https://petapixel.com/2020/06/10/bh-removes-employee-over-anti-blm-tweets/ There are many more but you probably get the point. While I wouldn't bet the rent money that what you say wouldn't or isn't happening, to be fair the incidents you linked go a bit beyond "saying something that is not in direct support". 1
Success Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Muppy said: I have a story regarding a close family friend from my church where his daughter (a college athlete at a Christian university great kid) was driving an uber for extra money during a college break and pulled over late at night. Ordered out of the car at gunpoint for no good reason she was 100% cooperative. He saw black skin and that was all it took. This kid was traumatized and for no good reason. Im sure many stories like this are out there. Racism is REAL. She is 6'2"and built like a brick you know what VERY athletic yeah she had some tats but a total sweetheart she was prejudged and as such treated like a criminal. Pisses me off royal. She did live to tell the tale and no ticket. Nor apology either. This is the quiet stuff that goes on that people don't realize. There are probably countless stories like this.
Bangarang Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 52 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: While I wouldn't bet the rent money that what you say wouldn't or isn't happening, to be fair the incidents you linked go a bit beyond "saying something that is not in direct support". How so?
wppete Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 I suspect the NFL is going to be in major trouble this year. They are better off not even having a season because seems to be a very harsh backlash coming to the NFL. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Mango Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Doc Brown said: You have to also factor in that black people commit more crime than white people. In 2018 the rates of violent crime was 3.6 times higher by black people than white people. Studies have shown when controlling for all those variables that white people get shot and killed by police more percentage wise while blacks have excessive force used against them. However, white people tend to encounter cops more in grave situations (active shooting scenarios for example) while black people interact with cops in more non deadly situations and this is probably due to racial profiling (driving while black comes to mind). Throwing all the convoluted statistics out the window, there's a reason black people are more afraid of cops than white people and the BLM movement didn't form based on a lie. If I am reading this correctly, we aren’t totally on different sides here. I do think you are over simplifying a complex issue (which you said). Violent crime (I think) is generally linked to poverty. The tough part in boring out those stats, is that there are very few communities in this country that are as systemically disenfranchised as the black population. And we have done (and continue to do)that systematically through redlining, zoning, eminent domain, and the failed urban renewal. Pruitt-Igoe is a great case study if you’re interested. Similarly to Buffalo. St. Louis basically uprooted an entire black community (Federal Housing Act) because they wanted to stop black people from infilling the city as white people were heading to the suburbs (see the new deal, which I generally like as a whole. But not this) and put them up in high rise projects. Closing and demolishing homes and businesses. They paid next to nothing for the land and basically gifted it to white developers to cater shopping centers to the white middle class living in the burbs. Crime rate increased and the neighborhood went to poop. Think the Kensington Expressway on steroids. I think the best way to look at police in regards to racial interaction is search, arrest, and imprisonment rates in comparison with the actual data on who commits those crimes. POC are pulled over at higher rates, searched at higher rates, arrested at higher rates, and given longer prison sentences for the same crimes. Similarly, all races use drugs at similar rates and data shows most people buy drugs from their own race. Yet POC make up a vast majority of those imprisoned on drug charges when the data shows it should be equal based on usage and dealing. Anecdotally I went to St. Joe’s. TONS were high all day long, (weed, coke, pills, etc.) I knew more than one kid who would be able to move a pound of weed a week at times. It was obvious to a bunch of 16 year olds, but apparently not to adults (sarcasm) because NOBODY ever got in trouble. EVER. But I grew up on the WS, so I had a bunch of friends at Hutch Tech and McKinley and they’d call the ***** police. Moral of the story. If you don’t want to get in trouble with the cops: 1. Don’t be a POC 2. Don’t be poor 2a. If you are poor definitely don’t be a POC. 3. Go to St. Joe’s. They’ll ignore anything big that goes on within their walls so that they can save their reputation and keep charging a stupid amount for HS. (Getting in a fight on campus or failing 2 classes was about the only thing they’d kick anybody out for)
Mango Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, wppete said: I suspect the NFL is going to be in major trouble this year. They are better off not even having a season because seems to be a very harsh backlash coming to the NFL. Should be interesting to see what happens. Business wise, the world is changing rapidly. They are now on the right side of history. In the long run they’ll be fine. Even if their statements have just been for PR, it will do them better over time. From a personal perspective, if people are no longer watching the Bills or the NFL because they have said they stand with BLM, then eff them. It’s a sport/entertainment that is largely played by POC, they don’t deserve to watch. And frankly I would prefer not to affiliate with them at all. I was ashamed to be a Bills fan when thousands and thousands of people showed up to the stadium with Kaep’s face in cross hairs. People can rag on Gen Z all they want, but they’re largely good people who will change this country for the better. At least from the 100’s I’ve dealt with coaching. I’m 20 years out of HS and it was kind of “cool” at the time to mouth off to your teacher on occasion. Or to copy homework. Get smashed on the weekends. Kids now look at kids who don’t read, or are rude, and they shun them. The “cool” kids now are smart, thoughtful, and empathetic. Edited June 16, 2020 by Mango 1
JoPoy88 Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, wppete said: I suspect the NFL is going to be in major trouble this year. They are better off not even having a season because seems to be a very harsh backlash coming to the NFL. Should be interesting to see what happens. i highly doubt that chief. But like you said let’s see what happens. 1
muppy Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 18 hours ago, BillsFan17 said: Have people truly changed their minds? Or are they following the herd in order to not be canceled or publicly shamed (e.g. Drew Brees) I think wether people are for or against the players kneeling will be based on their values, what is in their hearts and convictions. I think many minds have been changed from 2016 Yes. ....Is it a comfortable thought that NFL players will feel it necessary to take such a knee? No its not ....it is distasteful and I think it should be. Racism and injustice IS distasteful and it needs to stop. Why I find kneeling as an acceptable protest now when I didn't before? For me it was the kneeling on the neck of George Floyd that tipped me. Kneeling in a peaceful manner is the antithesis of what we all saw happen to Mr Floyd in Minneapolis. I'm just being honest. That tipped me into a realization that the same action as caused a death can bring awareness to an issue that needs address...peacefully. And I don't believe I am alone. Regardless of what is deemed politically correct for many to not want to show disrespect to our flag and country and anthem I now support it as I do my black brothers and sisters in this battle to end racial and social injustice. Don't think we won't catch flack for THAT view if it is seen in public or amongst our friends and family whom don't agree with it. Its not a wimps take IMO. This issue is divisive on its own based on this thread discussion and the Poll as an illustration . That folks agree with kneeling has more yes votes may or may not hold water in society outside of this forum. I wonder.......I don't know that answer. I hope we can find out (meaning we have a football season with fans in attendance.) That's a different thread.
Steve Billieve Posted June 16, 2020 Posted June 16, 2020 I should have never read this thread. I don't know how I am saying it, but I miss the days of getting on this board to oscillate between unearned hope and laughing at our soon to be former management team. I mean sure, sometimes some of us were #######s, but at least we all knew who to blame. Russ. Just in case you weren't sure.
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