fansince88 Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 23 hours ago, GregPersons said: Here you go. What is your solution to white on black violence? So you don't have one? 1
GregPersons Posted June 15, 2020 Author Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, fansince88 said: So you don't have one? Oh no, there's plenty of solutions. The basic answer is that — the root of crime is desperation. The efforts need to be in preventive methods. All police are doing is, at best, cleaning up after the fact. In California, there are two "suicides" within 20 minute drive of each other, both Black men hung from trees, and in an area where KKK activity has been spotted (flyers on telephone posts, etc). Ideally you can look these stories up yourself and get into the habit of finding answers yourself instead of demanding them from strangers on the internet. Or you can be pissy and insist on me grabbing the links for you and I'll probably do it because I'm a goddamn saint. You're a millennial and you have lived through what you've lived through, and you are trying to insist on a reality that Black people don't have the history that they do? "Black on black violence" is a KKK talking point, #1. It is repeated generationally. Nobody is ever coming in with stats they have verified. People are coming in with memes. That's because it's a fiction, and a distortion. "White on white violence" — what are we doing about this? Why does this not come up? School shootings, serial killers, the Civil War? Lots of bloody "white on white violence" in our country, what is being done about this? "White on white rape", sounds like a lot of white people are child rapists too? John Grisham was defending child porn in a news story this weekend. Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer... lotta white guys here. Depending on whether or not Jewish people are allowed to be white, depends who you ask. The solution is to repair the unhealed damage inflicted on Black America from the origin of the country to present day; damage that has never been addressed. Anytime it comes up, it's like waving the Holy Bible to a possessed child... just shrieks and projectile vomit. The obvious solutions would be Universal Basic Income and Universal Healthcare. In a society in which everyone's basic human needs are met --- possible in THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION -- in which the wealth is "re-distributed" more equitably among all citizens, instead of everyone being exploited to the bone so that Elon Musk can fly to Mars or whatever -- that is going to dramatically reduce all forms of crime. Of course you didn't need me to tell you that. You could've Googled or Binged or any other thing. You just think you've "got me." The truth doesn't matter to you. You just want to feel "right." Right? Anyway that's my idea for solving citizen-on-citizen violence in America particularly in oppressed and under-served communities. What's yours? Edited June 15, 2020 by GregPersons 1
fansince88 Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 17 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Oh no, there's plenty of solutions. The basic answer is that — the root of crime is desperation. The efforts need to be in preventive methods. All police are doing is, at best, cleaning up after the fact. In California, there are two "suicides" within 20 minute drive of each other, both Black men hung from trees, and in an area where KKK activity has been spotted (flyers on telephone posts, etc). Ideally you can look these stories up yourself and get into the habit of finding answers yourself instead of demanding them from strangers on the internet. Or you can be pissy and insist on me grabbing the links for you and I'll probably do it because I'm a goddamn saint. You're a millennial and you have lived through what you've lived through, and you are trying to insist on a reality that Black people don't have the history that they do? "Black on black violence" is a KKK talking point, #1. It is repeated generationally. Nobody is ever coming in with stats they have verified. People are coming in with memes. That's because it's a fiction, and a distortion. "White on white violence" — what are we doing about this? Why does this not come up? School shootings, serial killers, the Civil War? Lots of bloody "white on white violence" in our country, what is being done about this? "White on white rape", sounds like a lot of white people are child rapists too? John Grisham was defending child porn in a news story this weekend. Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer... lotta white guys here. Depending on whether or not Jewish people are allowed to be white, depends who you ask. The solution is to repair the unhealed damage inflicted on Black America from the origin of the country to present day; damage that has never been addressed. Anytime it comes up, it's like waving the Holy Bible to a possessed child... just shrieks and projectile vomit. The obvious solutions would be Universal Basic Income and Universal Healthcare. In a society in which everyone's basic human needs are met --- possible in THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION -- in which the wealth is "re-distributed" more equitably among all citizens, instead of everyone being exploited to the bone so that Elon Musk can fly to Mars or whatever -- that is going to dramatically reduce all forms of crime. Of course you didn't need me to tell you that. You could've Googled or Binged or any other thing. You just think you've "got me." The truth doesn't matter to you. You just want to feel "right." Right? Anyway that's my idea. What's yours? So there is no black on black violence is your point? Or am I missing something. FYI, I am turning 50 this month so your millennial point is also wrong. Just saying. 1
GregPersons Posted June 15, 2020 Author Posted June 15, 2020 23 minutes ago, fansince88 said: So there is no black on black violence is your point? Or am I missing something. FYI, I am turning 50 this month so your millennial point is also wrong. Just saying. Ah OK I was guessing based on "fan since 88" Yeah you're going to have a different conception of race entirely. Anyway no that's not my point. My point is it's simplistic and misleading, it's presented in bad faith, etc etc etc. It's rhetorical. You never cared about the answer.
Reality Check Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Ah OK I was guessing based on "fan since 88" Yeah you're going to have a different conception of race entirely. Anyway no that's not my point. My point is it's simplistic and misleading, it's presented in bad faith, etc etc etc. It's rhetorical. You never cared about the answer. What is your solution to black on black violence?
GregPersons Posted June 15, 2020 Author Posted June 15, 2020 Just now, Reality Check said: What is your solution to black on black violence? Case in point.
Reality Check Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Case in point. You want to avoid the fact that the behavior of the people in the inner cities needs to change, regardless of race. Too many sociopaths running around.
GregPersons Posted June 15, 2020 Author Posted June 15, 2020 Just now, Reality Check said: You want to avoid the fact that the behavior of the people in the inner cities needs to change, regardless of race. Too many sociopaths running around. Quote HOW TO BE A BASTARD I have participated in some of these activities personally, others are ones I either witnessed personally or heard officers brag about openly. Very, very occasionally, I knew an officer who was disciplined or fired for one of these things. Police officers will lie about the law, about what’s illegal, or about what they can legally do to you in order to manipulate you into doing what they want. Police officers will lie about feeling afraid for their life to justify a use of force after the fact. Police officers will lie and tell you they’ll file a police report just to get you off their back. Police officers will lie that your cooperation will “look good for you” in court, or that they will “put in a good word for you with the DA.” The police will never help you look good in court. Police officers will lie about what they see and hear to access private property to conduct unlawful searches. Police officers will lie and say your friend already ratted you out, so you might as well rat them back out. This is almost never true. Police officers will lie and say you’re not in trouble in order to get you to exit a location or otherwise make an arrest more convenient for them. Police officers will lie and say that they won’t arrest you if you’ll just “be honest with them” so they know what really happened. Police officers will lie about their ability to seize the property of friends and family members to coerce a confession. Police officers will write obviously bull#### tickets so that they get time-and-a-half overtime fighting them in court. Police officers will search places and containers you didn’t consent to and later claim they were open or “smelled like marijuana”. Police officers will threaten you with a more serious crime they can’t prove in order to convince you to confess to the lesser crime they really want you for. Police officers will employ zero tolerance on races and ethnicities they dislike and show favor and lenience to members of their own group. Police officers will use intentionally extra-painful maneuvers and holds during an arrest to provoke “resistance” so they can further assault the suspect. Some police officers will plant drugs and weapons on you, sometimes to teach you a lesson, sometimes if they kill you somewhere away from public view. Some police officers will assault you to intimidate you and threaten to arrest you if you tell anyone. A non-trivial number of police officers will steal from your house or vehicle during a search. A non-trivial number of police officers commit intimate partner violence and use their status to get away with it. A non-trivial number of police officers use their position to entice, coerce, or force sexual favors from vulnerable people. If you take nothing else away from this essay, I want you to tattoo this onto your brain forever: if a police officer is telling you something, it is probably a lie designed to gain your compliance. Do not talk to cops and never, ever believe them. Do not “try to be helpful” with cops. Do not assume they are trying to catch someone else instead of you. Do not assume what they are doing is “important” or even legal. Under no circumstances assume any police officer is acting in good faith. Also, and this is important, do not talk to cops. I just remembered something, do not talk to cops. Checking my notes real quick, something jumped out at me: Do not ***** talk to cops. Ever. Say, “I don’t answer questions,” and ask if you’re free to leave; if so, leave. If not, tell them you want your lawyer and that, per the Supreme Court, they must terminate questioning. If they don’t, file a complaint and collect some badges for your mantle. DO THE BASTARDS EVER HELP? Reading the above, you may be tempted to ask whether cops ever do anything good. And the answer is, sure, sometimes. In fact, most officers I worked with thought they were usually helping the helpless and protecting the safety of innocent people. During my tenure in law enforcement, I protected women from domestic abusers, arrested cold-blooded murderers and child molesters, and comforted families who lost children to car accidents and other tragedies. I helped connect struggling people in my community with local resources for food, shelter, and counseling. I deescalated situations that could have turned violent and talked a lot of people down from making the biggest mistake of their lives. I worked with plenty of officers who were individually kind, bought food for homeless residents, or otherwise showed care for their community. The question is this: did I need a gun and sweeping police powers to help the average person on the average night? The answer is no. When I was doing my best work as a cop, I was doing mediocre work as a therapist or a social worker. My good deeds were listening to people failed by the system and trying to unite them with any crumbs of resources the structure was currently denying them. It’s also important to note that well over 90% of the calls for service I handled were reactive, showing up well after a crime had taken place. We would arrive, take a statement, collect evidence (if any), file the report, and onto the next caper. Most “active” crimes we stopped were someone harmless possessing or selling a small amount of drugs. Very, very rarely would we stop something dangerous in progress or stop something from happening entirely. The closest we could usually get was seeing someone running away from the scene of a crime, but the damage was still done. And consider this: my job as a police officer required me to be a marriage counselor, a mental health crisis professional, a conflict negotiator, a social worker, a child advocate, a traffic safety expert, a sexual assault specialist, and, every once in awhile, a public safety officer authorized to use force, all after only a 1000 hours of training at a police academy. Does the person we send to catch a robber also need to be the person we send to interview a rape victim or document a fender bender? Should one profession be expected to do all that important community care (with very little training) all at the same time? To put this another way: I made double the salary most social workers made to do a fraction of what they could do to mitigate the causes of crimes and desperation. I can count very few times my monopoly on state violence actually made our citizens safer, and even then, it’s hard to say better-funded social safety nets and dozens of other community care specialists wouldn’t have prevented a problem before it started. Armed, indoctrinated (and dare I say, traumatized) cops do not make you safer; community mutual aid networks who can unite other people with the resources they need to stay fed, clothed, and housed make you safer. I really want to hammer this home: every cop in your neighborhood is damaged by their training, emboldened by their immunity, and they have a gun and the ability to take your life with near-impunity. This does not make you safer, even if you’re white. HOW DO YOU SOLVE A PROBLEM LIKE A BASTARD? So what do we do about it? Even though I’m an expert on bastardism, I am not a public policy expert nor an expert in organizing a post-police society. So, before I give some suggestions, let me tell you what probably won’t solve the problem of bastard cops: Increased “bias” training. A quarterly or even monthly training session is not capable of covering over years of trauma-based camaraderie in police forces. I can tell you from experience, we don’t take it seriously, the proctors let us cheat on whatever “tests” there are, and we all made fun of it later over coffee. Tougher laws. I hope you understand by now, cops do not follow the law and will not hold each other accountable to the law. Tougher laws are all the more reason to circle the wagons and protect your brothers and sisters. More community policing programs. Yes, there is a marginal effect when a few cops get to know members of the community, but look at the protests of 2020: many of the cops pepper-spraying journalists were probably the nice school cop a month ago. Police officers do not protect and serve people, they protect and serve the status quo, “polite society”, and private property. Using the incremental mechanisms of the status quo will never reform the police because the status quo relies on police violence to exist. Capitalism requires a permanent underclass to exploit for cheap labor and it requires the cops to bring that underclass to heel. Instead of wasting time with minor tweaks, I recommend exploring the following ideas: No more qualified immunity. Police officers should be personally liable for all decisions they make in the line of duty. No more civil asset forfeiture. Did you know that every year, citizens like you lose more cash and property to unaccountable civil asset forfeiture than to all burglaries combined? The police can steal your stuff without charging you with a crime and it makes some police departments very rich. Break the power of police unions. Police unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad cops and incentivize protecting them to protect the power of the union. A police union is not a labor union; police officers are powerful state agents, not exploited workers. Require malpractice insurance. Doctors must pay for insurance in case they botch a surgery, police officers should do the same for botching a police raid or other use of force. If human decency won’t motivate police to respect human life, perhaps hitting their wallet might. Defund, demilitarize, and disarm cops. Thousands of police departments own assault rifles, armored personnel carriers, and stuff you’d see in a warzone. Police officers have grants and huge budgets to spend on guns, ammo, body armor, and combat training. 99% of calls for service require no armed response, yet when all you have is a gun, every problem feels like target practice. Cities are not safer when unaccountable bullies have a monopoly on state violence and the equipment to execute that monopoly. One final idea: consider abolishing the police. I know what you’re thinking, “What? We need the police! They protect us!” As someone who did it for nearly a decade, I need you to understand that by and large, police protection is marginal, incidental. It’s an illusion created by decades of copaganda designed to fool you into thinking these brave men and women are holding back the barbarians at the gates. I alluded to this above: the vast majority of calls for service I handled were theft reports, burglary reports, domestic arguments that hadn’t escalated into violence, loud parties, (houseless) people loitering, traffic collisions, very minor drug possession, and arguments between neighbors. Mostly the mundane ups and downs of life in the community, with little inherent danger. And, like I mentioned, the vast majority of crimes I responded to (even violent ones) had already happened; my unaccountable license to kill was irrelevant. What I mainly provided was an “objective” third party with the authority to document property damage, ask people to chill out or disperse, or counsel people not to beat each other up. A trained counselor or conflict resolution specialist would be ten times more effective than someone with a gun strapped to his hip wondering if anyone would try to kill him when he showed up. There are many models for community safety that can be explored if we get away from the idea that the only way to be safe is to have a man with a M4 rifle prowling your neighborhood ready at a moment’s notice to write down your name and birthday after you’ve been robbed and beaten. You might be asking, “What about the armed robbers, the gangsters, the drug dealers, the serial killers?” And yes, in the city I worked, I regularly broke up gang parties, found gang members carrying guns, and handled homicides. I’ve seen some tragic things, from a reformed gangster shot in the head with his brains oozing out to a fifteen year old boy taking his last breath in his screaming mother’s arms thanks to a gang member’s bullet. I know the wages of violence. This is where we have to have the courage to ask: why do people rob? Why do they join gangs? Why do they get addicted to drugs or sell them? It’s not because they are inherently evil. I submit to you that these are the results of living in a capitalist system that grinds people down and denies them housing, medical care, human dignity, and a say in their government. These are the results of white supremacy pushing people to the margins, excluding them, disrespecting them, and treating their bodies as disposable. Equally important to remember: disabled and mentally ill people are frequently killed by police officers not trained to recognize and react to disabilities or mental health crises. Some of the people we picture as “violent offenders” are often people struggling with untreated mental illness, often due to economic hardships. Very frequently, the officers sent to “protect the community” escalate this crisis and ultimately wound or kill the person. Your community was not made safer by police violence; a sick member of your community was killed because it was cheaper than treating them. Are you extremely confident you’ll never get sick one day too? Wrestle with this for a minute: if all of someone’s material needs were met and all the members of their community were fed, clothed, housed, and dignified, why would they need to join a gang? Why would they need to risk their lives selling drugs or breaking into buildings? If mental healthcare was free and was not stigmatized, how many lives would that save? Would there still be a few bad actors in the world? Sure, probably. What’s my solution for them, you’re no doubt asking. I’ll tell you what: generational poverty, food insecurity, houselessness, and for-profit medical care are all problems that can be solved in our lifetimes by rejecting the dehumanizing meat grinder of capitalism and white supremacy. Once that’s done, we can work on the edge cases together, with clearer hearts not clouded by a corrupt system. Police abolition is closely related to the idea of prison abolition and the entire concept of banishing the carceral state, meaning, creating a society focused on reconciliation and restorative justice instead of punishment, pain, and suffering — a system that sees people in crisis as humans, not monsters. People who want to abolish the police typically also want to abolish prisons, and the same questions get asked: “What about the bad guys? Where do we put them?” I bring this up because abolitionists don’t want to simply replace cops with armed social workers or prisons with casual detention centers full of puffy leather couches and Playstations. We imagine a world not divided into good guys and bad guys, but rather a world where people’s needs are met and those in crisis receive care, not dehumanization. Here’s legendary activist and thinker Angela Y. Davis putting it better than I ever could: “An abolitionist approach that seeks to answer questions such as these would require us to imagine a constellation of alternative strategies and institutions, with the ultimate aim of removing the prison from the social and ideological landscapes of our society. In other words, we would not be looking for prisonlike substitutes for the prison, such as house arrest safeguarded by electronic surveillance bracelets. Rather, positing decarceration as our overarching strategy, we would try to envision a continuum of alternatives to imprisonment-demilitarization of schools, revitalization of education at all levels, a health system that provides free physical and mental care to all, and a justice system based on reparation and reconciliation rather than retribution and vengeance.” (Are Prisons Obsolete, pg. 107) I’m not telling you I have the blueprint for a beautiful new world. What I’m telling you is that the system we have right now is broken beyond repair and that it’s time to consider new ways of doing community together. Those new ways need to be negotiated by members of those communities, particularly Black, indigenous, disabled, houseless, and citizens of color historically shoved into the margins of society. Instead of letting Fox News fill your head with nightmares about Hispanic gangs, ask the Hispanic community what they need to thrive. Instead of letting racist politicians scaremonger about pro-Black demonstrators, ask the Black community what they need to meet the needs of the most vulnerable. If you truly desire safety, ask not what your most vulnerable can do for the community, ask what the community can do for the most vulnerable. https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759
Reality Check Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, GregPersons said: https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 Good luck cleaning that mess up. I will have to watch that on youtube.
GregPersons Posted June 15, 2020 Author Posted June 15, 2020 25 minutes ago, Reality Check said: Good luck cleaning that mess up. I will have to watch that on youtube.
Reality Check Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Well burn it down then. No one with any sense will want to live there. Great strategy.
Keukasmallies Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 Greg, I don't know you, but I've read a lot of your posts. I hope you get called back to work soon so you can refocus your currently free time. I get your point, I'm seriously thinking about it. (I'm not interested in guessing your identity.)
FireChans Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Keukasmallies said: Greg, I don't know you, but I've read a lot of your posts. I hope you get called back to work soon so you can refocus your currently free time. I get your point, I'm seriously thinking about it. (I'm not interested in guessing your identity.) Lol
Koko78 Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 5 hours ago, fansince88 said: So there is no black on black violence is your point? Or am I missing something. FYI, I am turning 50 this month so your millennial point is also wrong. Just saying. Ok Boomer.
fansince88 Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 8 hours ago, GregPersons said: Ah OK I was guessing based on "fan since 88" Yeah you're going to have a different conception of race entirely. Anyway no that's not my point. My point is it's simplistic and misleading, it's presented in bad faith, etc etc etc. It's rhetorical. You never cared about the answer. Im trying to carry on a conversation to get to know your point better. Why the snark? That said have not assumed I know anything about you yet first you assume Im a millennial by my screen name then you assume you know my racial leadings because of my age? Now I assume you know my race by my writings? True?
GregPersons Posted June 15, 2020 Author Posted June 15, 2020 3 hours ago, fansince88 said: Im trying to carry on a conversation to get to know your point better. Why the snark? That said have not assumed I know anything about you yet first you assume Im a millennial by my screen name then you assume you know my racial leadings because of my age? Now I assume you know my race by my writings? True? It's not about "you" -- it's bigger than individuals. I just want you to listen.
Chef Jim Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 7 hours ago, Koko78 said: Ok Boomer. He's not a boomer either.
Koko78 Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Chef Jim said: He's not a boomer either. Not the point of the joke.
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