Buffalo Sabres & NHL 2020-2021

[GETTOTHE50]

I won’t miss Sam or Risto one bit. I doubt either has much success on their new teams. 

[Chandler#81]

I’m just so sick of the Sabres being -not just bad, but unprecedentedly bad. For years!! 
Rico and Rene are rolling over in their graves.

 

it’s just horrible. #1 Pick, and we take a D-man? Mother Fart!

[Beast]

8 hours ago, K-9 said:

Reinhart signing long term, short term, or any term with the Panthers doesn’t do anything to help or hurt the Sabres, regardless, so I’m confused as to the point you’re making here. 

 

Where we are coming from if Sam does sign for more than a year in Florida is that since he informed the Sabres he was gonna be an UFA after this season, the expectation was that he would be a rental player for whomever he was traded to (excluding his desired teams in the Northwest) and that fact would lower his return as it does all rental players looking towards free agency. 
 

Sam signing for one year with Florida makes the deal made today more palatable for Sabre fans. A long term deal with Florida makes it almost impossible to accept and really points to Adams getting played. 

I am speaking of before the trade. 
 

What he does after is out of the Sabres control. Long term or short term deal, there is nothing the Sabres can do about that and there is nothing  just like there is nothing they can do about Ristolainen when his contract expires at the end of next season.

[thenorthremembers]

Going to say the same thing I said when the Bills traded Sammy Watkins, what have the Sabres won with Reinhart here?  What has he done to make the team better?  What did he do except whine about being here?  

 

Time to reward players who add to the team being a better team, who want to be here.  Otherwise see ya.

Edited July 25, 2021 by thenorthremembers

[K-9]

8 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Going to say the same thing I said when the Bills traded Sammy Watkins, what have the Sabres won with Reinhart here?  What has he done to make the team better?  What did he do except whine about being here?  

 

Time to reward players who add to the team being a better team, who want to be here.  Otherwise see ya.

True, we can’t finish any worse without Reinhart. None of these departing players were ever part of the solution in retrospect, nor do I think they ever really cared to be, so there is no problem moving on from them as far as I’m concerned. I just need to be convinced Adams and Co. have the chops to turn it around. These trades are an indicator of that, imo. Better than expected with the Risto deal, but if Reinhart signs for more than a year in Florida, that trade becomes a total disaster. 

[BillsFan4]

Edit -

apparently Terry pegula doesn’t want to take back any salary in an Eichel trade. 
 

Seems to me like one of his main goals is to reduce the payroll.

Edited July 25, 2021 by BillsFan4

[Beast]

21 minutes ago, K-9 said:

True, we can’t finish any worse without Reinhart. None of these departing players were ever part of the solution in retrospect, nor do I think they ever really cared to be, so there is no problem moving on from them as far as I’m concerned. I just need to be convinced Adams and Co. have the chops to turn it around. These trades are an indicator of that, imo. Better than expected with the Risto deal, but if Reinhart signs for more than a year in Florida, that trade becomes a total disaster. 

I get what you are saying but if we are playing the what if game, what if Levi turns out to be a better than average starting goalie or the first round pick ends up being a solid contributor on the team? Then does it matter?

 

I’m not sure it does anyway. Reinhart was leaving after the year ended anyway. Imagine if he played, got hurt, and we got nothing for him?

 

It is what it is. Like you, I am happy they are closing the book on the tank years. (And I was all for the tank)

1 minute ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

Don’t we all?

 

I mean, I take that report with a grain of salt. Is there really a story behind that?  If I was a reporter I could make that assumption as well. I’m pretty sure everyone prefers to see Eichel moved out west.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Beast said:

I get what you are saying but if we are playing the what if game, what if Levi turns out to be a better than average starting goalie or the first round pick ends up being a solid contributor on the team? Then does it matter?

 

I’m not sure it does anyway. Reinhart was leaving after the year ended anyway. Imagine if he played, got hurt, and we got nothing for him?

 

It is what it is. Like you, I am happy they are closing the book on the tank years. (And I was all for the tank)

If Levi goes on to become a hall of fame goalie, so much the better. But whether or not he does is not germane to the argument I’m making and that is simply that rental players heading towards UFA status fetch less on the trade market than players with multiple years left on their contracts. 
 

If Sam stays a rental player, then the deal Adams got isn’t that bad given that first round picks are seldom given for rental players. 
 

If Sam signs a multi year deal to stay in Florida, then Adams got played and received less than a player with term should receive in a trade. And the fact it’s a division rival makes it all the worse. 

[oldmanfan]

22 minutes ago, K-9 said:

If Levi goes on to become a hall of fame goalie, so much the better. But whether or not he does is not germane to the argument I’m making and that is simply that rental players heading towards UFA status fetch less on the trade market than players with multiple years left on their contracts. 
 

If Sam stays a rental player, then the deal Adams got isn’t that bad given that first round picks are seldom given for rental players. 
 

If Sam signs a multi year deal to stay in Florida, then Adams got played and received less than a player with term should receive in a trade. And the fact it’s a division rival makes it all the worse. 

And how is Adams supposed to control that?  If Florida makes an obscene offer to Sam that he can’t turn down, is that Adams fault.?

[BillsFan4]

I don’t really think this is all that comparable to the Watkins trade.

 

Watkins was trending down and regularly injured + the player Beane got back in the trade was a big contributor the following season (when he wasn’t injured).

Reinhart improved every single year and was pretty consistently one of our best players every season (he was our best player last season). He absolutely made the team better. Just because they didn’t win doesn’t mean he was a problem or it was his fault.

 

 

Honestly, What are the chances this Reinhart trade ever makes the Sabres better? 
Maybe if we’re lucky the 2 pieces from the trade will contribute in what? 5+ years down the line? But the chances of even drafting a regular NHL contributor with a late 1st round pick are low as is (especially considering the Sabres scouting over the last 10+yrs). Maybe that 7th round goalie they got will develop into something but I’m not holding my breath. Goalies take a long time to develop. He’s in college and will probably stay there 4 years, and may even just choose to turn UFA instead of signing here (there’s a college UFA loophole) like Cal Peterson did (the last college goalie we had).

 

 

 

Also, I do not remember Reinhart constantly whining about being here. Sure, he may have got testy with media members like Mike Harrington (well deserved!) when they asked purposely antagonizing questions but I don’t really remember him whining about being here, and I certainly don’t remember that happening all the time. I always thought he was a good soldier and did pretty much everything Buffalo asked of him.
 

 

As far as guys wanting to be here, I highly doubt there is a single veteran NHL player that would willingly choose the worst team in all of pro sports over the last decade. 
 

And Reinhart wanted to be here. He was willing to sign long term every offseason (up until this offseason anyway). Sabres just kept jerking him around.

 

They effectively chose a trending down Taylor hall over Sam Reinhart last offseason and it blew up horribly in their face.

 

 

btw, I’m fine with shipping some of these guys out. But you have to at least get proper value for them. Like Adams did with Ristolainen.

 

Florida has a deep prospect pool with a # of guys close to being NHL ready. I think I’m most aggravated about that part of the trade. I mean, at least get one of their better prospects.

Or at the very least don’t put conditions on the 1st round pick so it has a chance of not being a late round pick, or include someone like Frank Vatrano (3/4C) in the trade to give us some depth at C and help shelter the kids.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by BillsFan4

[K-9]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

And how is Adams supposed to control that?  If Florida makes an obscene offer to Sam that he can’t turn down, is that Adams fault.?

I understand that. But It’s an indication that Adams couldn’t/didn’t read the situation, imo. And that’s concerning to me as a fan. Especially where a division rival is concerned. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

I understand that. But It’s an indication that Adams couldn’t/didn’t read the situation, imo. And that’s concerning to me as a fan. Especially where a division rival is concerned. 

So he is supposed to be a mind reader?  Come on.  We all think he could have gotten more with no idea whom he’s been talking to, what the offers were, and so on.  It may very well be that many GMs don’t hold Reinhart in as high regard as our fan base.  
 

I see parallels between what the Bills did and what the Sabres are trying to do.  Get a GM and a HC that are in synch with the type of team they want and type of players that fit.  Get rid of guys that don’t buy in and keep or get guys that do.  Granted, it will take longer in the NHL since draft picks don’t immediately jump onto the team.  But you have two guys in Adams and Granato that have been active in the game forever.  Adams was the type player that had to grind it out, and did so with success in the league for years.  I’m pretty sure he knows what a team needs to be successful.

[K-9]

35 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So he is supposed to be a mind reader?  Come on.  We all think he could have gotten more with no idea whom he’s been talking to, what the offers were, and so on.  It may very well be that many GMs don’t hold Reinhart in as high regard as our fan base.  
 

I see parallels between what the Bills did and what the Sabres are trying to do.  Get a GM and a HC that are in synch with the type of team they want and type of players that fit.  Get rid of guys that don’t buy in and keep or get guys that do.  Granted, it will take longer in the NHL since draft picks don’t immediately jump onto the team.  But you have two guys in Adams and Granato that have been active in the game forever.  Adams was the type player that had to grind it out, and did so with success in the league for years.  I’m pretty sure he knows what a team needs to be successful.

Just to be clear, I like Adams and Granato, think that what they’re doing needs to be done, and I’m hopeful for the future. And you certainly don’t have to sell their credentials to me. I’m fully onboard. Besides, what choice to we have as fans? 
 

But being a mind reader isn’t the point as there is nothing Adams controls once the player is gone. There’s just no changing the fact that if Reinhart signs long term, especially with a division rival, then the return on the trade looks much worse. 

[BillsFan4]

7 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

So he is supposed to be a mind reader?  Come on.  We all think he could have gotten more with no idea whom he’s been talking to, what the offers were, and so on.  It may very well be that many GMs don’t hold Reinhart in as high regard as our fan base.  
 

I see parallels between what the Bills did and what the Sabres are trying to do.  Get a GM and a HC that are in synch with the type of team they want and type of players that fit.  Get rid of guys that don’t buy in and keep or get guys that do.  Granted, it will take longer in the NHL since draft picks don’t immediately jump onto the team.  But you have two guys in Adams and Granato that have been active in the game forever.  Adams was the type player that had to grind it out, and did so with success in the league for years.  I’m pretty sure he knows what a team needs to be successful.

No need to be a mind reader. You give Reinhart’s agent permission to negotiate with the other team as part of the trade.
 

Plenty of NHL teams have traded a player where an extension with the other team was worked out in advance as part of the trade. It literally just happened 2 days ago with Chicago and Seth Jones. Or Max Pacioretty or Mark Stone, etc etc. 

 

Most good Veteran GMs make sure they get proper value if the player is going to be signing long term with his new team. 

[QCity]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

So he is supposed to be a mind reader?  Come on.  We all think he could have gotten more with no idea whom he’s been talking to, what the offers were, and so on.  It may very well be that many GMs don’t hold Reinhart in as high regard as our fan base.  
 

I see parallels between what the Bills did and what the Sabres are trying to do.  Get a GM and a HC that are in synch with the type of team they want and type of players that fit.  Get rid of guys that don’t buy in and keep or get guys that do.  Granted, it will take longer in the NHL since draft picks don’t immediately jump onto the team.  But you have two guys in Adams and Granato that have been active in the game forever.  Adams was the type player that had to grind it out, and did so with success in the league for years.  I’m pretty sure he knows what a team needs to be successful.

 

Since this is an NFL forum, maybe some folks will find this NHL explanation enlightening (then again maybe not).

 

It has nothing to do with mind reading and everything to do with communication. The NHL differs significantly from the NFL in that a player's trade value is heavily influenced by his contract. Much, much more so than in the NFL. Right now Reinhart does not have a contract and has 1 year left of RFA. He told Adams that he intends to test UFA (which every player a year away typically wants) which means he's either going to sign a 1-yr deal until then or go into arbitration. The difference in trade value between Reinhart on a 1yr deal and say...a 6-yr deal is like the difference between a $5 bill and a $20 bill. Florida just gave us a $5 bill under the assumption that there is concern he will walk after 1 year and he may be only a rental. If next week Florida announces that they have signed Sam Reinhart to a 7yr contract, then something went seriously, seriously wrong in the Sabres front office, and Adams basically got played for a sucker.

 

Look at the Seth Jones (a player also 1yr away from UFA) trade that happened last week. That trade returned Columbus the 12OV pick this year, a 2nd round pick this year, a 1st round pick next year, and Adam Boqvist - the top prospect in their system. That is what you call a Kings Ransom. Why did he get that much? Well, you could argue that he's a better player than Reinhart and that it's a defensemen's market right now and you wouldn't be wrong, but that's not the major factor behind that haul. The major driver was that they did a sign-and-trade i.e. both teams, the player and agent got together and worked out a long term deal as part of the trade. In this scenario all 3 parties got what they wanted. The Blackhawks got the player they wanted locked up long term without the worry of him bolting after a year, the player got a massive contract, and the Blue Jackets got an impressive amount of picks and prospects back. What would this deal look like if there wasn't a contract extension in place? Well we can only speculate but it would likely be closer to the Risto deal and in no way, shape, or form would it include Boqvist. In that same line of thinking if Reinhart was traded with an extension in place it would almost certainly have to include one of Florida's top prospects, perhaps even Lundell!

 

Are these deals easy to pull off? No they aren't and they don't happen often because of the difficulty involved since it typically makes sense for a player to just wait until UFA. Also it takes a pretty astute GM to pull off this maneuver. Anyways at this point it's all speculation and it's still assumed that Reinhart will sign a 1yr deal.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, K-9 said:

There’s just no changing the fact that if Reinhart signs long term, especially with a division rival, then the return on the trade looks much worse. 

 

3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Most good Veteran GMs make sure they get proper value if the player is going to be signing long term with his new team. 

 

Yes! 

Edited July 26, 2021 by QCity

[K-9]

38 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

Since this is an NFL forum, maybe some folks will find this NHL explanation enlightening (then again maybe not).

 

It has nothing to do with mind reading and everything to do with communication. The NHL differs significantly from the NFL in that a player's trade value is heavily influenced by his contract. Much, much more so than in the NFL. Right now Reinhart does not have a contract and has 1 year left of RFA. He told Adams that he intends to test UFA (which every player a year away typically wants) which means he's either going to sign a 1-yr deal until then or go into arbitration. The difference in trade value between Reinhart on a 1yr deal and say...a 6-yr deal is like the difference between a $5 bill and a $20 bill. Florida just gave us a $5 bill under the assumption that there is concern he will walk after 1 year and he may be only a rental. If next week Florida announces that they have signed Sam Reinhart to a 7yr contract, then something went seriously, seriously wrong in the Sabres front office, and Adams basically got played for a sucker.

 

Look at the Seth Jones (a player also 1yr away from UFA) trade that happened last week. That trade returned Columbus the 12OV pick this year, a 2nd round pick this year, a 1st round pick next year, and Adam Boqvist - the top prospect in their system. That is what you call a Kings Ransom. Why did he get that much? Well, you could argue that he's a better player than Reinhart and that it's a defensemen's market right now and you wouldn't be wrong, but that's not the major factor behind that haul. The major driver was that they did a sign-and-trade i.e. both teams, the player and agent got together and worked out a long term deal as part of the trade. In this scenario all 3 parties got what they wanted. The Blackhawks got the player they wanted locked up long term without the worry of him bolting after a year, the player got a massive contract, and the Blue Jackets got an impressive amount of picks and prospects back. What would this deal look like if there wasn't a contract extension in place? Well we can only speculate but it would likely be closer to the Risto deal and in no way, shape, or form would it include Boqvist. In that same line of thinking if Reinhart was traded with an extension in place it would almost certainly have to include one of Florida's top prospects, perhaps even Lundell!

 

Are these deals easy to pull off? No they aren't and they don't happen often because of the difficulty involved since it typically makes sense for a player to just wait until UFA. Also it takes a pretty astute GM to pull off this maneuver. Anyways at this point it's all speculation and it's still assumed that Reinhart will sign a 1yr deal.

Good points all around. The more I think about the long delays in getting the deal consummated, the more I’m convinced it’s because Reinhart and Co. didn’t agree to a sign and trade deal like Jones did with Columbus/Chicago. 

[BillsFan4]

12 hours ago, QCity said:

 

Since this is an NFL forum, maybe some folks will find this NHL explanation enlightening (then again maybe not).

 

It has nothing to do with mind reading and everything to do with communication. The NHL differs significantly from the NFL in that a player's trade value is heavily influenced by his contract. Much, much more so than in the NFL. Right now Reinhart does not have a contract and has 1 year left of RFA. He told Adams that he intends to test UFA (which every player a year away typically wants) which means he's either going to sign a 1-yr deal until then or go into arbitration. The difference in trade value between Reinhart on a 1yr deal and say...a 6-yr deal is like the difference between a $5 bill and a $20 bill. Florida just gave us a $5 bill under the assumption that there is concern he will walk after 1 year and he may be only a rental. If next week Florida announces that they have signed Sam Reinhart to a 7yr contract, then something went seriously, seriously wrong in the Sabres front office, and Adams basically got played for a sucker.

 

Look at the Seth Jones (a player also 1yr away from UFA) trade that happened last week. That trade returned Columbus the 12OV pick this year, a 2nd round pick this year, a 1st round pick next year, and Adam Boqvist - the top prospect in their system. That is what you call a Kings Ransom. Why did he get that much? Well, you could argue that he's a better player than Reinhart and that it's a defensemen's market right now and you wouldn't be wrong, but that's not the major factor behind that haul. The major driver was that they did a sign-and-trade i.e. both teams, the player and agent got together and worked out a long term deal as part of the trade. In this scenario all 3 parties got what they wanted. The Blackhawks got the player they wanted locked up long term without the worry of him bolting after a year, the player got a massive contract, and the Blue Jackets got an impressive amount of picks and prospects back. What would this deal look like if there wasn't a contract extension in place? Well we can only speculate but it would likely be closer to the Risto deal and in no way, shape, or form would it include Boqvist. In that same line of thinking if Reinhart was traded with an extension in place it would almost certainly have to include one of Florida's top prospects, perhaps even Lundell!

 

Are these deals easy to pull off? No they aren't and they don't happen often because of the difficulty involved since it typically makes sense for a player to just wait until UFA. Also it takes a pretty astute GM to pull off this maneuver. Anyways at this point it's all speculation and it's still assumed that Reinhart will sign a 1yr deal.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes! 

Yes I agree and said pretty much the same thing a couple pages back. It all depends on how long he signs in Florida for. We know he at least has to sign for 1 year.

 

 

 

I initially thought that maybe he wasn’t willing to sign with any team for more than 1 year because he wants to test free agency. this interview with Reinhart is what made me think it might be longer than a year. 
 

So I’m in wait & see mode now. If he only signs for a year, Kevyn Adams did ok.

If he signs longer, then I’ll feel like Adams didn’t get proper value, especially since it’s a division rival (not that the Sabres really have ANY rivals right now... maybe Arizona as a rival in the fight for the #1 overall pick 🤣)

[BillsFan4]

 

😡🤬

 

this one could haunt the Sabres for years (like ROR).

Reinhart was very under appreciated. He’s improved every single season, and I expect him to have a big year playing with actual talent around him in Florida, and a legit good NHL coach (the coach who got the best out of Patrick Sharp, who Reinhart is a similar player to IMO).

Edited July 27, 2021 by BillsFan4

[ChevyVanMiller]

Supposed Sabres ask from Vegas for Jack Eichel.

 

 

[GETTOTHE50]

9 hours ago, ChevyVanMiller said:

Supposed Sabres ask from Vegas for Jack Eichel.

 

 

No idea if this is a good trade, but the sabres better make sure they completely clean out the other franchise in a deal. I rather them not trade him though.