SoCal Deek Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, GG said: Then by this standard, if two people get into an argument and one shoots the other, then pointing out that the argument led to the shooting is excusing the shooter? Is that what you are saying? Nobody is excusing Chauvin's actions. The new information could provide the motive for WHY he used grossly unnecessary force The interesting element here is that everyone's assumption has been that the Officer did what he did because the victim was BLACK. What if he actually did it for an entirely different reason? What if he knew the victim and had a grudge from some previous encounter? What if he was left handed? What if....? Edited June 9, 2020 by SoCal Deek
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Margarita said: what difference does it make that they knew each other.........does that justify what Chauvin did even if he knew Floyd to be a bad actor? It makes a large difference in terms of possible motives and the investigation into what happened. No one said it justified anything -- but if the motivation for the murder was not racism, but instead something related to their relationship -- that's pretty relevant. 2
billsfan1959 Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Margarita said: that reads to me like justification NOT buying it SMH his motives will be decided at court he has ZERO rationale to do what he did in my book...proned out, handcuffed.......come on....... other motive other than race but no justification to do it zero zilch NONE Are you seriously taking this stance? Have you read any of his previous posts in which he has condemned Chauvin and his actions? Even if you haven't, accusing him of justifying Chauvin's behavior from that post is ridiculous. However, you are welcome to your opinions, no matter how ridiculous I think they are. I'll let DR defend himself. 2
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: It makes a large difference in terms of possible motives and the investigation into what happened. No one said it justified anything -- but if the motivation for the murder was not racism, but instead something related to their relationship -- that's pretty relevant. I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. 1
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Margarita said: the words you are putting into peoples minds are what don't matter. Maybe it takes eductating ourselves and not coming to snap judgments? Just a thought. So where does one get this education to figure out what these words mean? The dictionary just doesn't seem to work anymore. And who is in charge of changing these meanings. "When we say DEFUND we don't mean DEFUND. We mean RESTRUCTURE! Why can't you understand that??" 1
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: It makes a large difference in terms of possible motives and the investigation into what happened. No one said it justified anything -- but if the motivation for the murder was not racism, but instead something related to their relationship -- that's pretty relevant. not to Mr Floyd it isn't or the countries vasts protests either for that matter rightly or wrongly..the courts will decide what relevance it has.......his actions better not be excused though.
SoCal Deek Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. No one is questioning his motivation, or using it to justify his actions. But...what if we just kneeled, protested, looted and rioted all over America on the totally wrong assumption that the officer had targeted this man because of his race? 1
Joe Miner Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 29 minutes ago, Margarita said: what difference does it make that they knew each other.........does that justify what Chauvin did even if he knew Floyd to be a bad actor? bolded is Rhinos post so you all mind readers know each and everyone elses every thought regarding donald trump....such great mind readers y'all are. Why wouldnt everyone want America to be great? This is a rabbit hole that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. We don't even know if it was racially motivated or not. But the country has been turned upside down with death and property destruction because of an unsubstantiated claim. Obviously motives matter since his assumed motive is what's started all this. 1
BuffaloHokie13 Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. The issue is that the charges were raised from murder 3 to murder 2. The difference between the charges is essentially intent/motive. If they can't prove the motive the dude is going to walk. That said, they did mention a secondary charge of manslaughter, so maybe that is their floor? I'll let the legal folks expand, but it is a mistake to dismiss the motive. 3
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: So where does one get this education to figure out what these words mean? The dictionary just doesn't seem to work anymore. And who is in charge of changing these meanings. "When we say DEFUND we don't mean DEFUND. We mean RESTRUCTURE! Why can't you understand that??" reflection, dialogue, discussion, compromise.agreement, just a few non radical ideas for starters......@-@ oh and no snap judgments Edited June 9, 2020 by Margarita
GG Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. Motive is a huge factor in whether the 2nd degree murder conviction sticks. Remember, there's a lot of criticism that the case got harder to prove with the upgraded charges. If they knew each other and Chauvin held a grudge, 2nd degree will stick. 1 1
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Joe Miner said: We don't even know if it was racially motivated or not. But the country has been turned upside down with death and property destruction because of an unsubstantiated claim. Obviously motives matter since his assumed motive is what's started all this. it at this point is a distinction without a difference though can you rewind the clock....or convince folks it was not even partially racially motivated?
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Margarita said: reflection, dialogue, discussion, compromise.agreement, just a few non radical ideas for starters......@-@ oh and no snap judgments Snap judgement?? What do you think when someone says "defund"?
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Margarita said: I think this is the rub...Now it is clearly explained that the motivation is what you are questioning and I mistakenly understood you were rationalizing the cops action.My point is the motivation to me is irrelevant in view of the facts that we all saw transpire namely those nearly 9 minutes of kneeling on a proned out handcuffed mans neck. I think any motivation he or anyone else ascribes to it is waaay overriden by the ultimate action and result. which was death. The courts will decide all the legal details like motivation.. No one is justifying what was done to Mr. Floyd. I'm certainly not. The issue of motivation does not change what happened or make it any less of a tragedy. What it does, however, is provide important context to the larger discussion being had around the country. If the reason for the confrontation, and the escalation of that confrontation that ended up with the knee on his neck, was borne out of a history between these two men that has nothing to do with racism or "cops gone wild" because of racism, then that matters. My interest lies in truth, not the cultivation or distortion of our perception. Whether George died because of a racist cop or because of a personal beef with a long time acquaintance/coworker doesn't somehow make the manner in which he died any less horrific. It just changes the discussion of what to do about it. Because one "motive" is very different from the other(s), both in terms of how we should view the event and how we can react/fix the problems it exposed. 1 2
Joe Miner Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Margarita said: it at this point is a distinction without a difference though can you rewind the clock....or convince folks it was not even partially racially motivated? Un*****ingbelievable
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Margarita said: not to Mr Floyd it isn't or the countries vasts protests either for that matter rightly or wrongly..the courts will decide what relevance it has.......his actions better not be excused though. It should matter to the people protesting. You should always know why you're protesting and what the cause is. One motivation fits their cause, one does not. Acknowledging that fact does not lessen their cause. Holding up something as an example of their cause for weeks, only to discover that it had nothing to do with that cause in the end, does more harm to their cause in the long run in fact. 1 1
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Joe Miner said: Un*****ingbelievable care to elaborate? will the actual motive make the racism discussions disappear, the riots all of a sudden not have happened...George Floyd not have died...? Thats what I meant.
Deranged Rhino Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Margarita said: it at this point is a distinction without a difference though can you rewind the clock....or convince folks it was not even partially racially motivated? People tend to believe what they hear first, whether it's true or not. An issue like this, all the more so. Because it's emotional. Which is why it's a favorite trigger point to use by the cynical and politically motivated. People who are reacting emotionally are not, by definition, thinking clearly. That is a dangerous state of mind to be in, and often leads people to do things they later look back on with regret. Truth matters in the end. 1
Joe Miner Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Margarita said: care to elaborate? will the actual motive make the racism discussions disappear, the riots all of a sudden not have happened...George Floyd not have died...? Thats what I meant. We wouldn't be having this discussion in a thread about disbanding three Minneapolis police if his motive wasn't assumed to be racism. It absolutely matters. If this isn't about racism, there is nothing new to stand on to suggest systemic racism which means there's no reason for new protests and certainly no reason for riots. The truth always matters. 1 1
muppy Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said: It should matter to the people protesting. You should always know why you're protesting and what the cause is. One motivation fits their cause, one does not. Acknowledging that fact does not lessen their cause. Holding up something as an example of their cause for weeks, only to discover that it had nothing to do with that cause in the end, does more harm to their cause in the long run in fact. it should but will it? I doubt it the buttons have already been pushed. Do I think these discussions will have be beneficial in the long run? I really hope so or this destruction and mayhem will have all been in vain. I doubt that everyine would ever be convinced that incident wasnt at least partially wasnt racially motivated no matter what previous contact those 2 may have had. 1 minute ago, Joe Miner said: We wouldn't be having this discussion in a thread about disbanding three Minneapolis police if his motive wasn't assumed to be racism. It absolutely matters. If this isn't about racism, there is nothing new to stand on to suggest systemic racism which means there's no reason for new protests and certainly no reason for riots. The truth always matters. whose version of the "truth" will be believed though........this isnt as cut and dried as you may think noone really knows the motive of Gauvin in his heart of hearts
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